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Topic: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) - page 48. (Read 378992 times)

legendary
Activity: 2282
Merit: 1050
Monero Core Team
BIP 101 would have blocksize hitting 1 GB in the year 2030.  Then it would continue to double each year until it hits 8 GB in 2036.

1 GB blocksize = ~4000 transactions per second

8 GB blocksize = ~32000 transactions per second

Visa & Mastercard transactions hit daily peaks of 4000 to 8000 transactions per second

Is going all the way up to 8 GB too much?  Why not stop at 2 GB =  ~8000 transactions per second?

... because 8 GB after an increase from 1 MB "should be enough for everyone" just as 640 KB (RAM) after an increase from 80 B (punched card) "should be enough for everyone" http://www.computerworld.com/article/2534312/operating-systems/the--640k--quote-won-t-go-away----but-did-gates-really-say-it-.html


sr. member
Activity: 277
Merit: 257
Good luck running Bitcoin on XT with virtually no developers, and discarding some of the most knowledgeable crypto-currency people in the world.

I think Ill buy dodgecoin instead lol  Grin


Then again according to some here Gavin is an active developer because he writes articles and participates in discussion. In that case XT has plenty of developers. Good to hear, it means I can call myself an active core developer too Cool. Should look good on my resume  Cool.


Writing code, pfffft  Roll Eyes
sr. member
Activity: 277
Merit: 257
Wat a trainwreck:

Quote
https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoinxt/comments/3vheqr/serious_buffer_overflow_vulnerability_found_in/

Serious buffer overflow vulnerability found in Bitcoin XT. If you are running XT from git shut off and upgrade!!!

Oh dear, I hope nobody exploits this delicate situation!

Quote from:  Maxwell
In Core we likely would have rejected this part of the patch which introduced the misbehavior for the introduction of manual memory management (new/delete) before even noticing the overflow, or even just for unnecessarily changing the buffer size (it could have left the buffer alone, and just min()ed the recv call argument). The additional heap allocation per received chunk can't be good for performance either.

Quote
ReKTnode 1 points 2 hours ago
It looks like Bitcoin Core has still not been patched for this vulnerability.

nullc 8 points an hour ago
Welcome to Reddit, ReKTnode!

That would be because Bitcoin Core never had it in the first place.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
Wat a trainwreck:

Quote
https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoinxt/comments/3vheqr/serious_buffer_overflow_vulnerability_found_in/

Serious buffer overflow vulnerability found in Bitcoin XT. If you are running XT from git shut off and upgrade!!!

Oh dear, I hope nobody exploits this delicate situation!
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
Quote
“As detailed in our white paper on the subject, we do not support an upgrade to BIP 101,” Vavilov said. “In our opinion, BIP 101 is not sufficiently tested nor theoretically substantiated. Its introduction could bring radical changes to the topology of the Bitcoin network. Additionally, we think that a more gradual increase of the block-size limit will help develop a transaction fee market. This would be great for the Bitcoin ecosystem from the security point of view.”

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/bitcoin-mining-titan-bitfury-no-to-bip-yes-to-block-size-consensus-1449253663

#REKT

Nice to see this coming right after the Lee bros also rubbished 101/XT.  (The Reddit threads about that are hilarious.  So much schadenfreude!   Cheesy)

Moar lulzy Gavinista pratfalls here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3ven4x/lighthouse_dead/

[email protected] has the inverse Midas touch; anything he's involved with turns to shit and fails.

Let's hope he also infects his (ostensibly) new BIS bankster buddies with incurable XTurd cooties.   Tongue
sr. member
Activity: 277
Merit: 257
But please do not try to highjack Satoshi as pro XT when we have no idea what his position would be.

I didn't get the impression that he was trying to paint satoshi as pro XT. The quotes showing satoshi as "anti 1MB4EVA" are plain for anyone to see, but pro XT?... not so much.
Well people are trying to claim that our camp is going against Satoshi, while they are following Satoshis vision. We have no idea what Satoshis position is (beyond that when needed blocksize should be increased, which everybody agrees with). If he truly wanted to express himself he still can. Some of the big-blockists and Hearn, are trying to express for him, and claim him.
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
But please do not try to highjack Satoshi as pro XT when we have no idea what his position would be.

I didn't get the impression that he was trying to paint satoshi as pro XT. The quotes showing satoshi as "anti 1MB4EVA" are plain for anyone to see, but pro XT?... not so much.
sr. member
Activity: 277
Merit: 257
Agreed.  One of the most regrettable things about this block-size snafu in my view is this characterization of 800% or 2000% increases as "modest" or a _doubling_ as being too small to consider.
It is very modest, compared to a completely removed cap, which has been set as a temporary anti-spam measure.
What was the full quote by Satoshi?
Satoshi Nakamoto speaks:

Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
While I don't think Bitcoin is practical for smaller micropayments right now, it will eventually be as storage and bandwidth costs continue to fall.  If Bitcoin catches on on a big scale, it may already be the case by that time.  Another way they can become more practical is if I implement client-only mode and the number of network nodes consolidates into a smaller number of professional server farms.  Whatever size micropayments you need will eventually be practical.  I think in 5 or 10 years, the bandwidth and storage will seem trivial.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
Long before the network gets anywhere near as large as that, it would be safe for users to use Simplified Payment Verification (section Cool to check for double spending, which only requires having the chain of block headers, or about 12KB per day.  Only people trying to create new coins would need to run network nodes.  At first, most users would run network nodes, but as the network grows beyond a certain point, it would be left more and more to specialists with server farms of specialized hardware.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
The eventual solution will be to not care how big it gets.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
But for now, while it’s still small, it’s nice to keep it small so new users can get going faster. When I eventually implement client-only mode, that won’t matter much anymore.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
The current system where every user is a network node is not the intended configuration for large scale. That would be like every Usenet user runs their own NNTP server. The design supports letting users just be users.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
It can be phased in, like:

if (blocknumber > 115000)
    maxblocksize = largerlimit

It can start being in versions way ahead, so by the time it reaches that block number and goes into effect, the older versions that don't have it are already obsolete.

When we're near the cutoff block number, I can put an alert to old versions to make sure they know they have to upgrade.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
The threshold can easily be changed in the future.  We can decide to increase it when the time comes.  It's a good idea to keep it lower as a circuit breaker and increase it as needed.  If we hit the threshold now, it would almost certainly be some kind of flood and not actual use.  Keeping the threshold lower would help limit the amount of wasted disk space in that event.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
Bitcoin users might get increasingly tyrannical about limiting the size of the chain so it's easy for lots of users and small devices.

So he never said to get rid of the block size limit like your or Gavin advocate, or have it dynamically increasing rapidly ahead of need.

Quote
The threshold can easily be changed in the future.  We can decide to increase it when the time comes.  It's a good idea to keep it lower as a circuit breaker and increase it as needed

That is exactly mine, Theymoses and most core devs position. To increase it when needed.

Thats not your or Gavins ideal position, you want to remove it not increase it.

 Satoshi never said that, If he did please show me where.  Another quote you have missing is (paraphrasing): that we should keep nodes small as long as possible.

btw this quote
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
The eventual solution will be to not care how big it gets.
refers to the size of block chain, not to block-size.


Now none of that makes your positions in any way wrong btw.


But please do not try to highjack Satoshi as pro XT when we have no idea what his position would be.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
Quote
“As detailed in our white paper on the subject, we do not support an upgrade to BIP 101,” Vavilov said. “In our opinion, BIP 101 is not sufficiently tested nor theoretically substantiated. Its introduction could bring radical changes to the topology of the Bitcoin network. Additionally, we think that a more gradual increase of the block-size limit will help develop a transaction fee market. This would be great for the Bitcoin ecosystem from the security point of view.”

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/bitcoin-mining-titan-bitfury-no-to-bip-yes-to-block-size-consensus-1449253663

#REKT
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
I just discovered this article, I thought it was very interesting:

http://konradsgraf.com/blog1/tag/block-size-debate

Quote from: Konrad S Graf
Disagreements appear rooted more in differing opinions on economics, a specialized field entirely distinct from engineering, programming, and network design.
Quote from: Konrad S Graf
The block size limit has for the most part not ever been, and should not now be, used to determine the actual size of average blocks under normal network operating conditions. Real average block size ought to emerge from factors of supply and demand for what I will term “transaction-inclusion services.” Beginning to use the protocol block size limit to restrict the provision of transaction-inclusion services would be a radical change to Bitcoin. The burden of proof is therefore on persons advocating using the protocol limit in this novel way.
Quote from: Konrad S Graf
The idea of using the limit in this new way—not the idea of raising it now by some degree to keep it from beginning to interfere with normal operations—is what constitutes an attempt to change something important about the Bitcoin protocol. And there rests the burden of proof.
Quote from: Konrad S Graf
Transaction-fee levels are not in any general need of being artificially pushed upward. A 130-year transition phase was planned into Bitcoin during which the full transition from block reward revenue to transaction-fee revenue was to take place.
Quote from: Konrad S Graf
The protocol block size limit was added as a temporary anti-spam measure, not a technocratic market-manipulation measure.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
As for the notion of equality between peers it really is only a matter of whether or not one is able to independently verify each and every transactions he is involved with.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

It remains theoretically possible for a vast pool of people to be full peers on par with any in the ecosystem.  The numbers of parties doing so is disappointingly low, but could potentially shoot right back up if/when there is a genuine need, and do so even in the presence of significant network attacks by those who own the global network infrastructure.

There are practical economic implications that limit the number of nodes.  Each node incurs processing and communications costs for each transaction that it verifies.  At the present minimum fee structure and bitcoin price there is a reasonable balance between minimum transaction fees and costs to relay transactions.  If there is a huge increase in number of nodes this will cease to be the case and the ecosystem will be out of balance.

I'm having trouble making sense of how transaction fees are somehow relevant for non-mining nodes?
sr. member
Activity: 278
Merit: 254

It remains theoretically possible for a vast pool of people to be full peers on par with any in the ecosystem.  The numbers of parties doing so is disappointingly low, but could potentially shoot right back up if/when there is a genuine need, and do so even in the presence of significant network attacks by those who own the global network infrastructure.

There are practical economic implications that limit the number of nodes.  Each node incurs processing and communications costs for each transaction that it verifies.  At the present minimum fee structure and bitcoin price there is a reasonable balance between minimum transaction fees and costs to relay transactions.  If there is a huge increase in number of nodes this will cease to be the case and the ecosystem will be out of balance.

Another problem is that latency across the network increases with number of nodes.  This happens two ways.  If a new node is added it can be connected to an existing node, but this will increase the number of neighbors of this new node and require more time to forward blocks assuming the node's total bandwidth has to be shared by each connection. Second, the network may have to be reorganized somewhat and in this case the network diameter will have to increase. The good news is that if node connections are three or more then the network diameter can grow with the logarithm of the number of nodes.

In practice all things will not be equal, with high speed nodes supporting large numbers of connections and low speed nodes perhaps supporting only a few. Also, mining nodes can use an engineered backbone.  In both of these cases all nodes are not fully equal. The dream of a truly equal large scale peer to peer network that is not engineered is unrealistic.

Since practical limitations limit the number of equal nodes, there are two obvious questions:  1. How many nodes are enough?  2.  How equal do nodes need to be?
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
It's a wonder that merely days following Satoshi's announcement of Bitcoin on the crypto mailing list one user was able to foresee the risks posed by a deliberate overreliance on SPV methods yet 7 years later some people insist that this is the only way Bitcoin can/should scale.

Quote
But I think we need to concern ourselves with minimizing the data and bandwidth required by money issuers - for small coins, the protocol seems wasteful.  It would be nice to have the full protocol for big coins, and some shortcut for small coins wherein people trust account based money for small amounts till they get wrapped up into big coins.

The smaller the data storage and bandwidth required for money issuers, the more resistant the system is the kind of government attacks on financial networks that we have recently seen.

http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg09968.html
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 252
Satoshi (my emphasis):

A generation ago, multi-user time-sharing computer systems had a similar problem. Before strong encryption, users had to rely on password protection to secure their files, placing trust in the system administrator to keep their information private. Privacy could always be overridden by the admin based on his judgment call weighing the principle of privacy against other concerns, or at the behest of his superiors. Then strong encryption became available to the masses, and trust was no longer required. Data could be secured in a way that was physically impossible for others to access, no matter for what reason, no matter how good the excuse, no matter what.

It's time we had the same thing for money.
Satoshi, thank you. Reading this again many years after I first read it, it still hits hard.
I don't mean sound mawkish, but truly, technology that has the capability of being trustless is a gift to the world.
administrator
Activity: 5222
Merit: 13032
Satoshi (my emphasis):

A generation ago, multi-user time-sharing computer systems had a similar problem. Before strong encryption, users had to rely on password protection to secure their files, placing trust in the system administrator to keep their information private. Privacy could always be overridden by the admin based on his judgment call weighing the principle of privacy against other concerns, or at the behest of his superiors. Then strong encryption became available to the masses, and trust was no longer required. Data could be secured in a way that was physically impossible for others to access, no matter for what reason, no matter how good the excuse, no matter what.

It's time we had the same thing for money.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Agreed.  One of the most regrettable things about this block-size snafu in my view is this characterization of 800% or 2000% increases as "modest" or a _doubling_ as being too small to consider.
It is very modest, compared to a completely removed cap, which has been set as a temporary anti-spam measure.
What was the full quote by Satoshi?
Satoshi Nakamoto speaks:

Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
While I don't think Bitcoin is practical for smaller micropayments right now, it will eventually be as storage and bandwidth costs continue to fall.  If Bitcoin catches on on a big scale, it may already be the case by that time.  Another way they can become more practical is if I implement client-only mode and the number of network nodes consolidates into a smaller number of professional server farms.  Whatever size micropayments you need will eventually be practical.  I think in 5 or 10 years, the bandwidth and storage will seem trivial.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
Long before the network gets anywhere near as large as that, it would be safe for users to use Simplified Payment Verification (section Cool to check for double spending, which only requires having the chain of block headers, or about 12KB per day.  Only people trying to create new coins would need to run network nodes.  At first, most users would run network nodes, but as the network grows beyond a certain point, it would be left more and more to specialists with server farms of specialized hardware.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
The eventual solution will be to not care how big it gets.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
But for now, while it’s still small, it’s nice to keep it small so new users can get going faster. When I eventually implement client-only mode, that won’t matter much anymore.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
The current system where every user is a network node is not the intended configuration for large scale. That would be like every Usenet user runs their own NNTP server. The design supports letting users just be users.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
It can be phased in, like:

if (blocknumber > 115000)
    maxblocksize = largerlimit

It can start being in versions way ahead, so by the time it reaches that block number and goes into effect, the older versions that don't have it are already obsolete.

When we're near the cutoff block number, I can put an alert to old versions to make sure they know they have to upgrade.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
The threshold can easily be changed in the future.  We can decide to increase it when the time comes.  It's a good idea to keep it lower as a circuit breaker and increase it as needed.  If we hit the threshold now, it would almost certainly be some kind of flood and not actual use.  Keeping the threshold lower would help limit the amount of wasted disk space in that event.
Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
Bitcoin users might get increasingly tyrannical about limiting the size of the chain so it's easy for lots of users and small devices.
sr. member
Activity: 277
Merit: 257
Agreed.  One of the most regrettable things about this block-size snafu in my view is this characterization of 800% or 2000% increases as "modest" or a _doubling_ as being too small to consider.

It is very modest, compared to a completely removed cap, which has been set as a temporary anti-spam measure.

What was the full quote by Satoshi?
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283

Szatoshi has spoken!

"Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System"

Notice the P2P thing.

ACH, SWIFT, etc are 'peer-to-peer' systems in some people's eyes insofar as the government chartered banks are peers with one another.  I don't think that that was exactly what Satoshi was envisioning, but if he was, fuck him.

It remains theoretically possible for a vast pool of people to be full peers on par with any in the ecosystem.  The numbers of parties doing so is disappointingly low, but could potentially shoot right back up if/when there is a genuine need, and do so even in the presence of significant network attacks by those who own the global network infrastructure.  As long as that reality exists, I'm fairly comfortable with Bitcoin as an asset.

legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
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