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Topic: Bitcoinica - Advanced Bitcoin Trading Platform - page 9. (Read 51103 times)

vip
Activity: 490
Merit: 502
Question about bitcoinica starfish:

Bitcoinica is charging interest on deposits. Interests is meant to attract funds to give the exchange a reserve (so if btc skyrockets or collapses suddenly zhoutong does not go belly up).
However, I'm a little sceptical that investors will find this attractive with a variable rate. It is too much hassle to keep track of.

Consider this alternative:

bitcoinica could issue fixed term 6-month bonds with a locked in 30% annual interest rate. The bonds would have the proviso that Zhou can choose to pay the bond off either in dollars or in btc with the locked in exchange rate at the time of initial issue. Note here that the actual interest rate is less than 30% per annum because Zhou can take advantage of any exchange rate movement. If the exchange rate moves by more than 30% in either direction, then Zhou will make money and the bondholder will lose. Essentially then bitcoinica can insure itself against large exchange fluctuations in either direction by issuing these bonds. The fixed term would also protect Zhou against sudden collapses in confidence to some degree.

It seems like issuing these bonds could protect Zhou from the starfish and also provide an attractive expected return for investors. Have you considered this Zhou?

It's like a dual-currency account. This is a good idea.

However, we have already eliminated the starfish problem. Currently all interest rates are dynamic, and people are shifting their deposits and positions fast enough to provide liquidity when we need.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1003
Question about bitcoinica starfish:

Bitcoinica is charging interest on deposits. Interests is meant to attract funds to give the exchange a reserve (so if btc skyrockets or collapses suddenly zhoutong does not go belly up).
However, I'm a little sceptical that investors will find this attractive with a variable rate. It is too much hassle to keep track of.

Consider this alternative:

bitcoinica could issue fixed term 6-month bonds with a locked in 30% annual interest rate. The bonds would have the proviso that Zhou can choose to pay the bond off either in dollars or in btc with the locked in exchange rate at the time of initial issue. Note here that the actual interest rate is less than 30% per annum because Zhou can take advantage of any exchange rate movement. If the exchange rate moves by more than 30% in either direction, then Zhou will make money and the bondholder will lose. Essentially then bitcoinica can insure itself against large exchange fluctuations in either direction by issuing these bonds. The fixed term would also protect Zhou against sudden collapses in confidence to some degree.

It seems like issuing these bonds could protect Zhou from the starfish and also provide an attractive expected return for investors. Have you considered this Zhou?
hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 500
is the "NO RESERVE" problem ever going to get fixed?
double * is bad connection to mtgox api
single * is no reserve

Yes I know.  I am unable to execute orders because Bitcoinica does not have the reserve liquidity in Mt. Gox.  I'm not trying to break the bank here, just buy a couple hundred BTC.  And all I get is "NO RESERVE".  So can Zhou tell us when this will get fixed?
hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 500
is the "NO RESERVE" problem ever going to get fixed?
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
what about using glbse for funds? (either bonds or shares)

Because selling shares for BTC to fund USD reserves would put downward pressure on price.  You might as well just short.
full member
Activity: 134
Merit: 100
what about using glbse for funds? (either bonds or shares)
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
Given that bitcoins and btc trading is unregulated and that bitcoin is still big experiment at this point, traditional lenders/banks may be unwilling to provide the necessary float.

This.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
zhoutong-

Can you give us more info on the asterisk problem.  I'm guessing that it is a liquidity problem as we see it when there are major changes in price and people are either accumulating or shorting on leverage.  I also see that there are now caps on account sizes.  Is there a plan and ETA for resolving the asterisk issue?


It's not possible to eliminate the asterisk without taking out loans every time people want to borrow more.  I highly doubt that someone would provide such a deal to bitcoinica, and almost certainly borrowing BTC when the asterisk is on the sell side isn't likely to work out.

Actually I don't think it's that unreasonable.  Any trading system/firm that offers margin trading will need a certain amount of credit to fund its margins.  The bitcoin market cap is very small and you'd only need a fraction of that to fund margin accounts, so you're not talking very much money in the grand scheme of things.

Given that bitcoins and btc trading is unregulated and that bitcoin is still big experiment at this point, traditional lenders/banks may be unwilling to provide the necessary float.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
zhoutong-

Can you give us more info on the asterisk problem.  I'm guessing that it is a liquidity problem as we see it when there are major changes in price and people are either accumulating or shorting on leverage.  I also see that there are now caps on account sizes.  Is there a plan and ETA for resolving the asterisk issue?


It's not possible to eliminate the asterisk without taking out loans every time people want to borrow more.  I highly doubt that someone would provide such a deal to bitcoinica, and almost certainly borrowing BTC when the asterisk is on the sell side isn't likely to work out.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
zhoutong-

Can you give us more info on the asterisk problem.  I'm guessing that it is a liquidity problem as we see it when there are major changes in price and people are either accumulating or shorting on leverage.  I also see that there are now caps on account sizes.  Is there a plan and ETA for resolving the asterisk issue?
vip
Activity: 490
Merit: 502
So... Where'd all the nice quotes graphs go?

Last month's quotes all vanished when we hit february.  Angry

Is the usefulness supposed to go to zero on every new month?





You can change the URL to view all previous dates. :-)
legendary
Activity: 1458
Merit: 1006
So... Where'd all the nice quotes graphs go?

Last month's quotes all vanished when we hit february.  Angry

Is the usefulness supposed to go to zero on every new month?



hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
Hero VIP ultra official trusted super staff puppet
hi zhou tong,

what do you think about paying interest on deposits (maybe even on gainings)?

this would encourage people to deposit more money which (hopefully) reduces the death-star *.

LOL @ deathstar
legendary
Activity: 1428
Merit: 1000
hi zhou tong,

what do you think about paying interest on deposits (maybe even on gainings)?

this would encourage people to deposit more money which (hopefully) reduces the death-star *.
hero member
Activity: 675
Merit: 502
You have to put funds into bitcoinica for short selling. If the price goes up too much, where you risk not being able to pay for the shorted bitcoins anymore, you're automatically liquidated: You automatically buy back the bitcoins you shorted.

If that's the case, then I don't understand the benefit of Bitcoinica, because the following seem identical to me:

a) having 10 bitcoins deposited with Bitcoinica, and borrowing 10 bitcoins with the hope of buying them back at a lower price

b) selling your own 10 bitcoins with the hope of buying them back at a lower price?

Sure.  You pay Bitcoinica to play in the first case and not in the latter.

You're example is a bit silly though.  Normally you would deposit far fewer BTC (of equiv) than you borrow.  Consequently, you get liquidated before the price goes to infinity.
Working through the numbers I think I understand now - thanks!
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
You have to put funds into bitcoinica for short selling. If the price goes up too much, where you risk not being able to pay for the shorted bitcoins anymore, you're automatically liquidated: You automatically buy back the bitcoins you shorted.

If that's the case, then I don't understand the benefit of Bitcoinica, because the following seem identical to me:

a) having 10 bitcoins deposited with Bitcoinica, and borrowing 10 bitcoins with the hope of buying them back at a lower price

b) selling your own 10 bitcoins with the hope of buying them back at a lower price?

Those are identical.  But you can also deposit 10BTC worth the dollars and borrow 10BTC to short.
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
You have to put funds into bitcoinica for short selling. If the price goes up too much, where you risk not being able to pay for the shorted bitcoins anymore, you're automatically liquidated: You automatically buy back the bitcoins you shorted.

If that's the case, then I don't understand the benefit of Bitcoinica, because the following seem identical to me:

a) having 10 bitcoins deposited with Bitcoinica, and borrowing 10 bitcoins with the hope of buying them back at a lower price

b) selling your own 10 bitcoins with the hope of buying them back at a lower price?

Sure.  You pay Bitcoinica to play in the first case and not in the latter.

You're example is a bit silly though.  Normally you would deposit far fewer BTC (of equiv) than you borrow.  Consequently, you get liquidated before the price goes to infinity.

hero member
Activity: 675
Merit: 502
You have to put funds into bitcoinica for short selling. If the price goes up too much, where you risk not being able to pay for the shorted bitcoins anymore, you're automatically liquidated: You automatically buy back the bitcoins you shorted.

If that's the case, then I don't understand the benefit of Bitcoinica, because the following seem identical to me:

a) having 10 bitcoins deposited with Bitcoinica, and borrowing 10 bitcoins with the hope of buying them back at a lower price

b) selling your own 10 bitcoins with the hope of buying them back at a lower price?
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
You have to put funds into bitcoinica for short selling. If the price goes up too much, where you risk not being able to pay for the shorted bitcoins anymore, you're automatically liquidated: You automatically buy back the bitcoins you shorted.

This is what makes a 'short squeeze' such a wonderful and delightful thing to watch.  As the price rises, more and more people buy (albeit not particularly willingly though that does not matter to the market.)  So the process perpetuates itself until it burns out (as people who have some powder dry recognize the situation and capitalize on it.)

Really interesting things can happen when a lot of the shorting was 'naked'.  That is, there was actually no borrowing of the item by the person going short.  In this case a situation can occur where the curves never cross and things cannot 'burn out'.  Then we get a great deal of market instability and loss of confidence.  In markets where naked short selling is possible and tolerated, great efforts are made to avoid such an event and obscure it if it happens.

hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 504
^SEM img of Si wafer edge, scanned 2012-3-12.
You have to put funds into bitcoinica for short selling. If the price goes up too much, where you risk not being able to pay for the shorted bitcoins anymore, you're automatically liquidated: You automatically buy back the bitcoins you shorted.
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