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Topic: Bitcoinica MtGox account compromised - page 20. (Read 155957 times)

legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1001
rippleFanatic
July 14, 2012, 01:46:50 AM
What the fuck was 40 000 bitcoins doing sitting at mt gox. After the first hack it was claimed 80% of funds were sitting in cold storage.

Someone told lies about this too. Can someone dig up the original thread where they promised the coins were in cold storage ?

You are so delusional! No such thing was ever said. But if it had, it would look like the below.

It's not how things work. The owner of the account is not Bitcoinica LP, and I never have authority to touch the money in that account.

I can just confirm that the fund injection (from cold storage) has been done, and technically Patrick (and maybe others) can already access the funds.

Shit.. June 06 zhoutong confirms that funds were moved from cold storage. The source was leaked approximately June July 08. And the withdrawal made on June July 12. That's at least 36 days on MtGox without two-factor auth.

edit: fixed dates
legendary
Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
July 14, 2012, 01:40:50 AM
Posted an update to the OP.

Poof! And he's gone! Funny how he's not been around to post. I guess there's nothing exciting going on with this forum to warrant his presence.
Genjix is attending Hackaton in Berlin.

I bet they're busy providing tech support for intersango.

Let me get this straight. The poor guy is not eating well, isn't sleeping well, there's a major debacle going on, and he's the key player making sure that people get their money back with the use of an outdated computer. But he's able to attend a hacking convention in Berlin which, if I still remember my geography, is not in the UK. And Zhou Tong is in Singapore which is not in Australia. How many of the other key players of Bitcoinica are on holiday? It looks like I may be canceling my fishing trip to Wisconsin again this year to clean up the mess I have here in Sandwich, due in part because of all this.

Please, Jehovah, at least let Satoshi Nakamoto be of legal drinking age. I want to believe!

~Bruno~
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Wat
July 14, 2012, 01:39:20 AM
What the fuck was 40 000 bitcoins doing sitting at mt gox. After the first hack it was claimed 80% of funds were sitting in cold storage.

Someone told lies about this too. Can someone dig up the original thread where they promised the coins were in cold storage ?

The funds were in the cold storage. But apparently someone transferred that to Mt. Gox account to be ready for refunds.

Mt Gox != cold storage for those playing at home.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Wat
July 14, 2012, 01:36:44 AM
What the fuck was 40 000 bitcoins doing sitting at mt gox. After the first hack it was claimed 80% of funds were sitting in cold storage.

Someone told lies about this too. Can someone dig up the original thread where they promised the coins were in cold storage ?

You are so delusional! No such thing was ever said. But if it had, it would look like the below.

you have access!!!
Just send my 60-70btc to 19PKMheiAr2Lxm2YN67pTUpTmwTW96PGvF .
lol trying to jump the line. Try not to be an idiot.
Im not jumping the line. I suggested that zhou got rid of the bureaucracy.
We have waited long enough, and im getting impatient.

It's not how things work. The owner of the account is not Bitcoinica LP, and I never have authority to touch the money in that account.

I can just confirm that the fund injection (from cold storage) has been done, and technically Patrick (and maybe others) can already access the funds.

Or like this:

Who has the keys to the offline cold storage wallet?
I don't have. I don't even know how much we have in cold storage before the hack.


https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.894305   maybe I imagined someone said it.....
vip
Activity: 490
Merit: 502
July 14, 2012, 01:36:33 AM
What the fuck was 40 000 bitcoins doing sitting at mt gox. After the first hack it was claimed 80% of funds were sitting in cold storage.

Someone told lies about this too. Can someone dig up the original thread where they promised the coins were in cold storage ?

The funds were in the cold storage. But apparently someone transferred that to Mt. Gox account to be ready for refunds.
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
July 14, 2012, 01:34:06 AM

Copied and paste from a random website:

Quote
What are the banking hours in Japan? Most banks are open Monday to Friday, 9:00am to 3:00pm. Most are closed on Saturday's and Sunday's.

TGIF comes to mind. In this case, TGIF13.

As of an hour ago, Mt Gox has yet to file a report. Neither has those (maybe no longer plural) over at Bitcoinica.

~Bruno~


Bank hours have nothing to do with it.  I was just giving a bank as an example of who would normally file the report with law enforcement if a depositor's funds are taken from an account with a financial institution.

We actually don't know exactly what contact MtGox may or may not have had with the authorities and it is no-one's best interest for them to reveal that information at this stage.  On the other hand, the failure of those associated with Bitcoinica to make reports to law enforcement is inexcusable and simply cannot be justified.

Quote
ZhouTong wasn't paid employee compensation.

In the other thread it was stated that Zhoutong continued to receive $8000 per month until recently.  It is not clear whether he received that money as an employee or as a consultant, although his posts following the May intrusion indicated that he regarded himself as an employee.  Generally when companies become insolvent, employee entitlements take precedence over those of unsecured creditors but there is little indication that any of the "management" people were being paid following the Linode hack.  In fact, if Zhou is to be believed, funds were being injected into Bitcoinica at that time (by Tihan and perhaps others) to cover the initial losses.

Quote
Zhou was being paid $8000 a month for operating Bitcoinica in his part time while Tihan was scrambling to get the site working. During the last month, Zhou was not taking pay, to refund the money stolen by the Linode compromise. Tihan was rushing to get the paperwork finished because Zhou is attending school. We kept sending the paperwork back saying it's incomplete and there's problems, so when the initial compromise happened, the company was not yet fully formed. The initial confusion was over who is responsible as the GP - the part time owner devoting maybe 5 hours a week? The new owners who had no experience operating the site? The middleman who acts on behalf of the owner and has no technical knowledge? That's why payments were initially complicated and delayed.

legendary
Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
July 14, 2012, 01:30:48 AM
What the fuck was 40 000 bitcoins doing sitting at mt gox. After the first hack it was claimed 80% of funds were sitting in cold storage.

Someone told lies about this too. Can someone dig up the original thread where they promised the coins were in cold storage ?

You are so delusional! No such thing was ever said. But if it had, it would look like the below.

you have access!!!
Just send my 60-70btc to 19PKMheiAr2Lxm2YN67pTUpTmwTW96PGvF .
lol trying to jump the line. Try not to be an idiot.
Im not jumping the line. I suggested that zhou got rid of the bureaucracy.
We have waited long enough, and im getting impatient.

It's not how things work. The owner of the account is not Bitcoinica LP, and I never have authority to touch the money in that account.

I can just confirm that the fund injection (from cold storage) has been done, and technically Patrick (and maybe others) can already access the funds.

Or like this:

Who has the keys to the offline cold storage wallet?
I don't have. I don't even know how much we have in cold storage before the hack.
donator
Activity: 1731
Merit: 1008
July 14, 2012, 01:30:21 AM
Posted an update to the OP.

Poof! And he's gone! Funny how he's not been around to post. I guess there's nothing exciting going on with this forum to warrant his presence.
Genjix is attending Hackaton in Berlin.

I bet they're busy providing tech support for intersango.
legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1001
rippleFanatic
July 14, 2012, 01:28:28 AM
What the fuck was 40 000 bitcoins doing sitting at mt gox. After the first hack it was claimed 80% of funds were sitting in cold storage.

Someone told lies about this too. Can someone dig up the original thread where they promised the coins were in cold storage ?

Good question. And when the 18k were stolen, genjix's first response was "There shouldn't even be that much money in the live wallet." And we see Patrick's comments on #bitcoin-dev talking about "amateur hour" while probing bitcoinica, and demanding respect just a few days ago.

Then they were put in control of bitcoinica's MtGox account (Tihan confirmed this, he gave them all the passwords in the [email protected] LastPass account), and in the months since they didn't even turn on 2-factor auth.

Its literally a miracle that Intersango is still in business (at least they did accidentally leak all Intersango users e-mail addresses).
legendary
Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
July 14, 2012, 01:24:04 AM
Posted an update to the OP.

Poof! And he's gone! Funny how he's not been around to post. I guess there's nothing exciting going on with this forum to warrant his presence.

~Bruno~
jcp
newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
July 14, 2012, 01:18:15 AM
In any event, employee compensation clawbacks generally are only available for losses that were incurred prior to the payment of the compensation. The idea is that someone who misrepresents the profitability of a business shouldn't benefit from their misconduct by getting a bonus based on the inflated profits. Nothing like that seems to have happened in this case. In many countries (including the United States) you don't have to prove the employee was at fault. It's sufficient to show that the bonus was paid based on incorrect information.

As far as a non-employee clawback goes, generally you can't clawback funds from someone who gave something of comparable value for the funds received unless you can show wrongdoing on their part or the contract specifically permitted a clawback. It's very unlikely that ZhouTong's contract would have permitted a clawback for anything other than a materially significant misrepresentation or omission on his part. And there's no evidence so far, at least as I know, that ZhouTong did anything like that.

Tort law doesn't work that way. Prior principals can be liable, and there is a mountain of case law in common law jurisdictions where this is the case. If full payout was not returned to deposit holders, then there may be liability due to negligence from a lack of due diligence with the buyer / current owner of Bitcoinica. Further, as you implied, if the seller received compensation significantly higher than the true NPV/MTM of the equity, the difference may likely be subject to legal claims even if Zhoutong acted in good faith if the current owners convinced Zhoutong to sell his company so the current owners can strip/steal all the deposits (as the non-disclosure of the ownership transfer was proximate cause for the loss).

It is in Zhoutong's personal best interests to ensure that Bitcoinica client funds are returned in full if he is not colluding with the present owners, otherwise there will be significant economic incentives for deposit holders to investigate the identity of Zhoutong and all parties involved.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Wat
July 14, 2012, 01:17:47 AM
What the fuck was 40 000 bitcoins doing sitting at mt gox. After the first hack it was claimed 80% of funds were sitting in cold storage.

Someone told lies about this too. Can someone dig up the original thread where they promised the coins were in cold storage ?
legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1001
rippleFanatic
July 14, 2012, 01:13:12 AM
[...]
Of course, we probably don't know anything close to the full story yet.

However, anyone who got any money back from Bitcoinica should be aware that this money could be subject to clawbacks. Once Bitcoinica knew that they couldn't make full repayments, they had an obligation to prioritize their debts and protect the interests of other creditors. If they paid some people 100% of the money they held once they knew they couldn't pay back everyone, that could be subject to a clawback.

Well, they only found out they couldn't make full repayments since just before genjix's announcement in the first post of this thread. So from what you say, the repayments made before that aren't subject to clawback.

I would like to hear from Tihan (or Andrew Thornbury, or whoever the owner is) whether they intend for users to take the 30% cut of their funds. As the owners, they are legally obligated to return users 100% of their funds. That Bitcoinica Consultancy was in charge of security doesn't matter, Tihan is equally at fault since he assigned them the job.

Tihan invested $500k in CoinLab, he should get that back for bitcoinica users if his VC fund is out of funds. CoinLab was a waste of money (mining coins with gamer's GPUs isn't close to competitive with FPGA's and ASICs).
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
Per aspera ad astra!
July 14, 2012, 01:10:33 AM
Just want to say I'm glad MtGox has filed a police report. Cretins like this thief need to be caught.
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1003
July 14, 2012, 01:07:33 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clawback  if they are forced into liquidation the administrator can do this including any funds paid to employees like ZhouTong...I think any money he made when selling the site would be included.
ZhouTong wasn't paid employee compensation. He transferred ownership of the company in exchange for those funds. So the rules for employee compensation or bonus clawbacks wouldn't apply.

In any event, employee compensation clawbacks generally are only available for losses that were incurred prior to the payment of the compensation. The idea is that someone who misrepresents the profitability of a business shouldn't benefit from their misconduct by getting a bonus based on the inflated profits. Nothing like that seems to have happened in this case. In many countries (including the United States) you don't have to prove the employee was at fault. It's sufficient to show that the bonus was paid based on incorrect information.

As far as a non-employee clawback goes, generally you can't clawback funds from someone who gave something of comparable value for the funds received unless you can show wrongdoing on their part or the contract specifically permitted a clawback. It's very unlikely that ZhouTong's contract would have permitted a clawback for anything other than a materially significant misrepresentation or omission on his part. And there's no evidence so far, at least as I know, that ZhouTong did anything like that.

Of course, we probably don't know anything close to the full story yet.

However, anyone who got any money back from Bitcoinica should be aware that this money could be subject to clawbacks. Once Bitcoinica knew that they couldn't make full repayments, they had an obligation to prioritize their debts and protect the interests of other creditors. If they paid some people 100% of the money they held once they knew they couldn't pay back everyone, that could be subject to a clawback.

Agreed.  ZhouTong is probably safe from clawbacks as Bitcoinica was not in the red at the point at which he sold it.  Payments made after the hacks that put Bitcoinica in the red are the issue. 
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
July 14, 2012, 01:00:04 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clawback  if they are forced into liquidation the administrator can do this including any funds paid to employees like ZhouTong...I think any money he made when selling the site would be included.
ZhouTong wasn't paid employee compensation. He transferred ownership of the company in exchange for those funds. So the rules for employee compensation or bonus clawbacks wouldn't apply.

In any event, employee compensation clawbacks generally are only available for losses that were incurred prior to the payment of the compensation. The idea is that someone who misrepresents the profitability of a business shouldn't benefit from their misconduct by getting a bonus based on the inflated profits. Nothing like that seems to have happened in this case. In many countries (including the United States) you don't have to prove the employee was at fault. It's sufficient to show that the bonus was paid based on incorrect information.

As far as a non-employee clawback goes, generally you can't clawback funds from someone who gave something of comparable value for the funds received unless you can show wrongdoing on their part or the contract specifically permitted a clawback. It's very unlikely that ZhouTong's contract would have permitted a clawback for anything other than a materially significant misrepresentation or omission on his part. And there's no evidence so far, at least as I know, that ZhouTong did anything like that.

Of course, we probably don't know anything close to the full story yet.

However, anyone who got any money back from Bitcoinica should be aware that this money could be subject to clawbacks. Once Bitcoinica knew that they couldn't make full repayments, they had an obligation to prioritize their debts and protect the interests of other creditors. If they paid some people 100% of the money they held once they knew they couldn't pay back everyone, that could be subject to a clawback.
legendary
Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
July 14, 2012, 12:56:10 AM
The question remains why there hasnt been a police report initiated by the owners of bitcoinica. Shouldnt it be them and not yourself that initiates such a thing ? When else do you arbitrarily "inform the police " without the actual people involved doing it ?

We are still discussing this with our legal counsel actually, however filing the theft details pre-emptively from our side may make things easier and faster, and may protect us and our other customers too.

Japan local time when post was:

7:45 AM
Saturday, July 21, 2012
( observing Standard Time )


(Sorry for the 12pt font size)

~Bruno~


You can bet if I realised that amount of funds had gone missing from my account I'd be waking Mark up in the middle of the might.  It's also reasonable to assume that Mark immediately went about securing evidence once informed of the event.  I'm not sure why you think the time is especially significant given how many people start work early even on Saturdays.

If money had been stolen from your bank account, it would be the bank who notified the authorities (after all, they have the transaction records).  In this case, it should probably be MtGox which files the initial report.  There is zero reason to believe that attempted thefts will not continue if intruders know they will likely not be discovered and prosecuted.

Copied and paste from a random website:

Quote
What are the banking hours in Japan? Most banks are open Monday to Friday, 9:00am to 3:00pm. Most are closed on Saturday's and Sunday's.

TGIF comes to mind. In this case, TGIF13.

As of an hour ago, Mt Gox has yet to file a report. Neither has those (maybe no longer plural) over at Bitcoinica.

~Bruno~
legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1001
rippleFanatic
July 14, 2012, 12:55:40 AM
something tells me that you guys should add videos to accompany these kinds of announcements. people need to be able to see into your eyes and see your sorrow and regret, to know that you're telling the truth.

we'd not have so much of this finger-pointing if that were the case, i'll bet.
this

That doesn't matter. Everyone saw Bruce Wagner's video after mybitcoin but many still think he's Tom Williams.
hero member
Activity: 662
Merit: 545
July 14, 2012, 12:52:40 AM
something tells me that you guys should add videos to accompany these kinds of announcements. people need to be able to see into your eyes and see your sorrow and regret, to know that you're telling the truth.

we'd not have so much of this finger-pointing if that were the case, i'll bet.
this
jcp
newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
July 14, 2012, 12:34:12 AM
Having friends paid out in full and then requesting that others take a 30% haircut sounds pretty darn illegal in nearly all jurisdictions involved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clawback  if they are forced into liquidation the administrator can do this including any funds paid to employees like ZhouTong...I think any money he made when selling the site would be included.

The principle of a clawback is known and given, however there is a de facto legal principle of "Judgement Proof". Namely, if it is impossible to know who the principles involved are (present and former owners of bitcoinica) and/or the location of their funds, it's impossible to secure the proceeds of any judgement. It's become obvious that Zhoutong already understands the risk of a clawback, which is why he seems to have been advocating prompt return of funds to deposit holders for a while (assuming we take his actions at face value and is not colluding with the current "owner").

The reason I emphasized the payment in full and requesting others take a 30% haircut issue is because this may create material liability for the Bitcoin Consultancy people if they were involved in claims processing/payment.
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