Topic: Bitcoinica stolen coin returns - page 4. (Read 13110 times)

Who enforces them?

anarchy

• • absence of government
  • a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority
• • absence or denial of any authority or established order
  • absence of order : disorder

I'm sorry but you have been mislead. Anarchy is a society not without rules but witout ruleRs. There certainly are rules in anarchy, it's just that they are private, mandatory, consistent and above all else voluntary(meaning no one is forced to sing a contract to follow those rules and be part of such a society).

Anarchy != chaos.

Anarchy == society with some private mandatory and consistent rules.

Mandatory and consistent rules? That doesn't sound like anarchy. Anarchy is the complete riddance of all government, whether centralized or not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drop_City is one example. How many hippie communes still exist that actually have no government?

What real life situations? Where have we had a society with some private mandatory and consistent rules i.e. an anarchy before??

Btw SR provides a glimpse at what I'm talking about.. so please explain to me how their market place is bad for any of the participants?

Very well said. It has even been proven in real-life situations.

Yip I would agree. Perhaps they have been informed and we just dont know about it. I have alot of questions.. but I shall not ask because the matter doesnt concern me. I didn't lose anything.



If anyone wants to reward me for my honesty..feel free... =)  1JubtMLVDy1D169GkHLshf8kiYdqoqLM5b  

Well that's pretty much all I needed to see. It's sad to see someone as smart and as capable as you clearly are showing as little or no knowledge about how to think rationally and logically about the world. I'm sorry to burst your bubble but I do not consent to being a slave to any person or their invisible friends.


Neither are you.

That these coins were stolen is not disputed, at least not by anyone relevant here (the victim, the thief, and the person who accepted the stolen coins).

Hence "I think I need to clarify my position here:"

The one and only purpose of anarchy is to enable the creation of a new State. Extended anarchy is bad, and anarchy for anarchy's sake is pure insanity.

Pretty sure it is, yes.

The State's authority comes from God, who is the source of all authority and life. God's rights are unlimited, and don't require your consent.

You are not Bitcoin. Nobody represents Bitcoin. Bitcoin is a technology. People who try to abuse the technology to further their anti-State agendas are just as harmful (maybe even more harmful) to Bitcoin as thieves.

Yes freedom indeed does also mean that anyone can decide to not accept certain bitcoins. But they must do so openly in their contract before a client signs up for their service. Anything else is breach of contract and should be resolved accordingly.

I can tell you this much, if mtgox does not accept those coins, there are plenty of other exchanges who will.

Don't beg, hazek, it just gives power to the person you're begging to.

The only "wrong" that is being done is by the thief, and it is that person who should be pursued.

If someone unintentionally receives, as part of an honest and innocent exchange of value, a transaction descended from stolen coins, that recipient should not be penalised in any way.

To do otherwise would indeed be tyrannical.

It seems like you haven't taken your argument about freedom far enough.  Why shouldn't any accepter of coins be free to track tainted coins?  Isn't that their choice?

If Mt.Gox want to look for tainted coins and make it harder for the person who deposits them, they should be free to do that.  Whether it is a good idea remains to be seen; but just as we don't need an authority telling us some coins are bad, we don't need an authority telling us that all coins are good.

To be honest; the bitcoin community seems to be handling these issues as well as is possible.  And look: it's happening in an emergent way without diktat, just as we thought it would.

Interesting! If I were a hacker and hacked into any server owned by Rackspace, simply fucking around, I'm sure an investigation consisting of law enforcement would pursue. It would not bode well for the owners of Rackspace to say to themselves, "Oh, well!" then move on. They have no choice but to contact the proper authorities if, for nothing else, to show their users that they'll do anything to protect them.

http://www.itnews.com.au/News/289320,police-investigate-netfleet-hack.aspx

Wow.  


Says who? You? How can they be sure that what you or anyone else say is stolen is actually stolen? When have the rest of us agreed to your "oughts"?


Again how can people be sure what you or anyone else describes is stolen is actually stolen?


In a free society with some mandatroy and consistent rules (i.e. anarchy) that's all you can do.


In a free society with some mandatroy and consistent rules (i.e. anarchy) no one does without a prearranged contract with the party found guilty of a theft.


Again, who will make the determination what is a genuine stolen coin and what is not? You?  


Says who, you? Was this specified beforehand in the contract these service providers have with their clients?


Yeah? Where did they get this authority from? Did we agree to this? Did we give our consent?


Says who? You? Why should I? Did I sign a contract I would?


Again says who? You? Why should I? Did I sign a contract I would?




Luke I'm deeply disappointed to see such arrogance and presumption of authority over other free people. Bitcoin doesn't care for the monopolies of violence that are the governments and their laws in the real world and their merely presumed and under threat of violence enforced authority and if we want this to remain a market regulated by strictly us, the market consumers, neither should we.

There are no guarantees in life, especially not when one has true freedom. That's why man invented insurance. If you are afraid of a theft, insure your belongings, if you can't get insurance, improve your security but don't assume you can punish other free people for your lack of preparation for tackling the risk preemptively.

As for the thief, if he is caught prevent him from being part of society until he repays the damages by preventing him from doing any further transactions through his identity. Problem solved.


Just please, I beg you and anyone thinking like you, stop supporting that stupid and destructive tyranny that we have in the real world today of slavery and monopolies on violence.

have sent back the 1.6 btc i recieved - http://www.blockchain.info/tx-index/6386814/b071a3d1218e88f976d73ca5a820a6c825201f5bf6aaf1856db1a8b77f8b6360



just curious why people are only mentioning the police and prosecution etc etc now ? Were the police called in for the hack that took apparently took place ? something doesn't quite seem right with a few things....


*edit* I hope I sent back the same coins I recieved.. I'd hate for the police to knock on my door  

*edit 2* btw.. why did someone send 0.10 to some of the accts that recieved coins ?

How did Bitcoinica proved that the 18500 BTC transaction came from one of their addresses?
Did they sign a message with the address private key so that everyone can confirm it's really their address?
Blockchain.info links are not proof enough.

I think I need to clarify my position here:

• Coins that have theft in their history ("tainted coins") shouldn't be taken out of circulation
• People who knowingly accepted coins they know came from a computer break-in and fraud ("stolen coins") should return them
• People who knowingly accept stolen coins and insist they are their own are guilty themselves to some degree
• I never demanded people return the coins to Bitcoinica or the address I created for them. I politely asked and made it easy for honest people to do so
• I don't have the authority to prosecute people who don't return stolen coins, or even the original criminal
• Tainted coins should be flagged as such, using arbitrary algorithms, for the purposes of finding the criminal (Edit: I don't mean to imply organizations are obliged to go to effort to do this, but that it is of valid use for investigation)
• MtGox and other service providers are justified in requiring additional verification before making withdrawls, if you have deposited a significant amount of tainted coins
• The government does have the authority to investigate and prosecute these cases
• Everyone with information on these cases should cooperate with law enforcement's investigation
• Even confidential information on these cases should be shared with law enforcement after they have followed due process for their jurisdiction

It takes so much effort. With bitcoin you just open blockexplorer and copy-paste addresses.

Anyway, i am not saying stealing coins is right. What i'm saying is that this whole "tainted coin" thing and how the things are being handled is EPIC FAIL

Most of all you can't look at a serial of 100 dollar bill and say "sorry mate but I won't accept it. I will take it from you however, but you still owe me 100$.".

Yeah but with fiat there is no way to check all the past transactions. Also with fiat money you don't have a government made up of luke and his friends that launch crusades against tainted coins

What this remind me is exactly that: the government. Retarded ideas to face problems. The real government do that, and the same happens here. These "lords" of bitcoin come here and tell us what to do or "you will face conseguences". Real government all over again.