Bitfinex - FRAUD, price manipulation, fake transactions - page 11.

deisik

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Quote from: illyiller on August 09, 2017, 02:50:34 PM

Quote from: stompix on August 09, 2017, 10:38:13 AM

But nothing you can do, nothing that really should be done.
As long as it is no illegal in the country where the exchange is operating we will all have to live it it.

But where an exchange is "operating" is up to interpretation. Poloniex and Bittrex operate from the US and serve US customers. Bitfinex is organized in different places (probably to keep the owners out of prison if shit hits the fan), but also serves US customers. Generally this means (to US civil and law enforcement authorities) that an exchange is operating in the USA

I'm not sure if you are quite correct on this

If they see that your IP comes from the US, they ask you whether you are from the US. I'm using a VPN service myself to reach Bitfinex (though I'm not from the US), and once say this warning where I had to confirm that I'm certainly not from the US. I don't know what would happen if you claimed to be from the States. So anyone more knowledgeable is welcome to chime in on this. Regarding the topic raised, all exchanges (regulated and unregulated alike) are using dirty tricks to earn a couple of bucks here and there. Even bigger exchanges like Nasdaq or CBOE had been caught front-running the orders of their clients in the past

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Quote from: mayax on August 09, 2017, 04:11:17 AM

Quote from: marky89 on August 09, 2017, 03:09:23 AM

Quote from: unamis76 on August 08, 2017, 07:31:14 PM

People trading on this and some other platforms know what they're getting into when they get there. I didn't see any solid evidence that Bitfinex is actively participating in their own markets. However, exchanges are mostly unregulated. If you want to trade on regulated places only, that's fine, and there are places for that.

I listened to a Whaleclub interview with Phil Potter where he said openly that he traded on his own exchange. I don't recall him going into much detail, but one would have to think he (as a top executive) has a lot of information (positions, stops) to use against traders. They could certainly be front-running customers, or worse. The regulated exchanges are illiquid, so they just follow Bitfinex. I just hope that Bitfinex isn't the next Mt Gox.....

if the users accept that, they deserve to lose all their funds.

I mean, someone must be very arrogant or ignorant to accept the fact that an exchanger manipulates the price as he wants. it's not only Bitfinex. 99% from the exchangers have FAKE volumes and the sheep(their clients) accept that.

I don't think it's so black-and-white. Unfortunately, most people getting into cryptocurrencies don't understand the legal nuances around exchange regulation. They also likely don't know about order book manipulation. And unfortunately, there is often a tendency for new entrants to this market (at least for small investors and traders) to seek out altcoin markets because they "missed out on Bitcoin." This often has them rushing to exchanges like Poloniex and Bitfinex once they've gotten some money into the system and bought some bitcoin.

Yes, "buyer beware" and all that, but I don't think these people are necessarily arrogant. And it's very easy to be ignorant in this space. Maybe we all need to get burned once or twice before learning our lesson. I wish there were another way, though....

Giebaymax

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Things like this have often I see and honestly I feel sorry for those who have participated in the exchange especially those who already have a balance, from this experience that I take is I do not want to have a balance in exchange so I have other assumptions to keep it in the wallet other to avoid things like friends say..

illyiller

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Quote from: stompix on August 09, 2017, 10:38:13 AM

But nothing you can do, nothing that really should be done.
As long as it is no illegal in the country where the exchange is operating we will all have to live it it.

But where an exchange is "operating" is up to interpretation. Poloniex and Bittrex operate from the US and serve US customers. Bitfinex is organized in different places (probably to keep the owners out of prison if shit hits the fan), but also serves US customers. Generally this means (to US civil and law enforcement authorities) that an exchange is operating in the USA.

Isn't spoofing and similar manipulation illegal under SEC rules? How about CFTC? I'd imagine so, but I wouldn't know where to begin looking.

ABCbits

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As if other exchange never manipulate price, volume or total trade. Whales or few altcoin developers also do this to earn profit. But i think smart traders won't be fooled by this kind of manipulation and people shouldn't use exchange which knows to manipulate things or have shady reputation.

mayax

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Quote from: ABCbits on August 09, 2017, 11:05:20 AM

As if other exchange never manipulate price, volume or total trade. Whales or few altcoin developers also do this to earn profit. But i think smart traders won't be fooled by this kind of manipulation and people shouldn't use exchange which knows to manipulate things or have shady reputation.

almost all the exchangers are doing that. I think Gemini and Coinbase are not doing it anymore. Being regulated, it's harder to play with your freedom. They heard that it's not so good in jail

so, people should try to use regulated exchangers instead of shady ones(Bitfinex is one of them).

no0dlepunk

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Come on! What is wrong with price manipulation huh? we have to embrace that because we don't have any choice but to utilize exchanges. What you have to do is to take advantage of it, buy every time that price goes down.

Man, you have to ride the waves! that what makes our thing fun! this game is for the strong (strong hands) Grin

maokoto

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When you have the power to do things and none can put a finger on them... you'll end doing something. Banks have done so many things too. Seems something to take for granted. However, the exchanges also give us a good service and we are to thank them for that.

stompix

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It's been like that for a long time.
Remember all the fake volume from China and the excuse about the 0 trading fees?

The worse thing is the thing will get uglier and uglier.
In the altcoin market they are all faking volumes to be the first in terms of volume for every coin and sites that rank exchanges based on this are first to blame then users acting like lemmings.

But nothing you can do, nothing that really should be done.
As long as it is no illegal in the country where the exchange is operating we will all have to live it it.

mayax

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Quote from: 1Referee on August 09, 2017, 05:31:15 AM

I actually wrote a post yesterday where I noticed this sort of behaviour at Bitfinex, where massive buy or sell orders pop up to temporarily make the market go into a certain direction, without these large orders getting bought or sold into. I personally don't see anything being wrong with this, unless it turns out that it is coming from Bitfinex itself. That being said, after everything that happened with Bitfinex, or better said, after everything they have put their customers through, only an idiot would make use of that exchange again. It actually surprised me that they managed to regain a huge load of their volumes again. I seriously thought it was done an over with Bitfinex, in terms of being the largest USD exchange.

you will be amazed of how many idiots(sheep) are around...

1Referee

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I actually wrote a post yesterday where I noticed this sort of behaviour at Bitfinex, where massive buy or sell orders pop up to temporarily make the market go into a certain direction, without these large orders getting bought or sold into. I personally don't see anything being wrong with this, unless it turns out that it is coming from Bitfinex itself. That being said, after everything that happened with Bitfinex, or better said, after everything they have put their customers through, only an idiot would make use of that exchange again. It actually surprised me that they managed to regain a huge load of their volumes again. I seriously thought it was done an over with Bitfinex, in terms of being the largest USD exchange.

aoluain

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Well for me I know that this whole scene is unregulated so
there are no consequences for the exchanges to do whatever
they want with the markets.

Its trading, everyone is in it to make a few gains its just the
exchanges have control of some of the strings.

We all know that shady things could be taking place,
but what else can we do if we want to trade?

Iranus

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on August 08, 2017, 11:36:05 PM

There are too many paranoid people in Bitcoin right now. Or maybe they want the price to crash because they sold when the price went down to $1800? Grin

No. Currently I want the price to crash because it's completely stupid and it makes no sense.

Quote from: Pursuer on August 09, 2017, 02:21:30 AM

people are still comparing that kind of control with the pathetic 8%-10% volume that bitfinex has!!!

Any major price differences get arbitrage traded to death. It's always possible that an exchange manipulating their own markets is going to affect other markets too.

I honestly pity anyone who is not taking profit right now. Do you think that the price just jumps up by hundreds of dollars in a matter of hours naturally? Of course not, it's going to come down as soon as whales think they can pick up the most cheap coins.

mayax

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Quote from: marky89 on August 09, 2017, 03:09:23 AM

Quote from: unamis76 on August 08, 2017, 07:31:14 PM

People trading on this and some other platforms know what they're getting into when they get there. I didn't see any solid evidence that Bitfinex is actively participating in their own markets. However, exchanges are mostly unregulated. If you want to trade on regulated places only, that's fine, and there are places for that.

I listened to a Whaleclub interview with Phil Potter where he said openly that he traded on his own exchange. I don't recall him going into much detail, but one would have to think he (as a top executive) has a lot of information (positions, stops) to use against traders. They could certainly be front-running customers, or worse. The regulated exchanges are illiquid, so they just follow Bitfinex. I just hope that Bitfinex isn't the next Mt Gox.....

if the users accept that, they deserve to lose all their funds.

I mean, someone must be very arrogant or ignorant to accept the fact that an exchanger manipulates the price as he wants. it's not only Bitfinex. 99% from the exchangers have FAKE volumes and the sheep(their clients) accept that.

see something interesting since 2015:

https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets/comments/2t3iz5/bitfinex_cso_phillip_g_potter_admits_to_trading/

marky89

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Quote from: unamis76 on August 08, 2017, 07:31:14 PM

People trading on this and some other platforms know what they're getting into when they get there. I didn't see any solid evidence that Bitfinex is actively participating in their own markets. However, exchanges are mostly unregulated. If you want to trade on regulated places only, that's fine, and there are places for that.

I listened to a Whaleclub interview with Phil Potter where he said openly that he traded on his own exchange. I don't recall him going into much detail, but one would have to think he (as a top executive) has a lot of information (positions, stops) to use against traders. They could certainly be front-running customers, or worse. The regulated exchanges are illiquid, so they just follow Bitfinex. I just hope that Bitfinex isn't the next Mt Gox.....

TrumpD

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Quote from: prometheum on August 08, 2017, 07:18:48 PM

This makes me sad, whats worrying is that it gives cryptos a bad name. However I dont think the spoofing as mentioned in the article is technically illegal for crypto trading.

It could be declared illegal soon now that the SEC is taking an active interest in "spoofing". It is just plain wrong, and any exchange caught in the act should be fined by the powers that be.

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on August 08, 2017, 11:36:05 PM

There are too many paranoid people in Bitcoin right now. Or maybe they want the price to crash because they sold when the price went down to $1800? Grin

Some people go far to say that the market is being manipulated "MtGox style". How can an "entity" manipulate the whole market through Bitfinex if Bitfinex does not have the market dominance than MtGox once had?

They are right to be paranoid. Bitcoin transactions are irreversible, so once you send the money it may be gone forever, and if the private keys are gone, the Bitcoins are locked forever. And it is too easy to run away with Bitcoin than with anything else because it is virtual, no need to carry things or pass through centralized hubs.

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Quote from: Thatstinks on August 08, 2017, 09:37:04 PM

Quote from: Beerwizzard on August 08, 2017, 09:31:53 PM

Still havent seen a real evedence that Bitfinex is making fake volumes. Thats bight be one of the disadvantages of unregulated crypto exchanges. Have no idea what to do with this but i'm afraid some people may insist on adding some kind of moderation (what is usually also not good).

Just 1 or 100 reasons BTC can NEVER be a world currency. It is just not possible to have a decentralized unregulated currency when the "bad" guys game it like this. Not saying BTC should be regulated, no no no but simply exhibit A why it will never be THE crypto for mainstream.

All cryptos are subject to these forms of manipulation, so that's no particular downside to BTC. You could still regulate exchanges themselves to curb these forms of manipulation, question being how much regulation you actually want. Or maybe exchanges could start self-policing, but I'm afraid there's no incentive for them to do so.

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Quote from: Thatstinks on August 09, 2017, 12:15:18 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on August 08, 2017, 11:36:05 PM

There are too many paranoid people in Bitcoin right now. Or maybe they want the price to crash because they sold when the price went down to $1800? Grin

Some people go far to say that the market is being manipulated "MtGox style". How can an "entity" manipulate the whole market through Bitfinex if Bitfinex does not have the market dominance than MtGox once had?

the entire market pretty much goes red and green at the exact same time for all top coins but ya no way an entity can do much to influence price lolololol everyone around the world agrees to buy and sell at same time without cause, sure thing ;(

oh boy the sarcasm is strong with this one Grin

Mt Gox left a sour feeing for everyone. now whatever people see the first thing they think about is Mt Gox. they see a wall they say Mt Gox, they see a drop,... they see a rise,... they don't see anything ,....
but the fact is Mt Gox was like the only exchange back in the days. the others were completely irrelevant. the volume coming from Mt Gox was about 75%-80% of the total volume. and yet people are still comparing that kind of control with the pathetic 8%-10% volume that bitfinex has!!!

and to address your sarcasm, the same way price of anything else in the world (lets say Gold price or USD/EUR price for example) change everywhere at the same time and in the same direction, bitcoin price is also changing.
if you think everyone "everyone around the world agrees" to buy gold then the same is true about bitcoin too!!

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on August 08, 2017, 11:36:05 PM

There are too many paranoid people in Bitcoin right now. Or maybe they want the price to crash because they sold when the price went down to $1800? Grin

Some people go far to say that the market is being manipulated "MtGox style". How can an "entity" manipulate the whole market through Bitfinex if Bitfinex does not have the market dominance than MtGox once had?

the entire market pretty much goes red and green at the exact same time for all top coins but ya no way an entity can do much to influence price lolololol everyone around the world agrees to buy and sell at same time without cause, sure thing ;(

Topic: Bitfinex - FRAUD, price manipulation, fake transactions - page 11. (Read 4933 times)