Bitfinex - FRAUD, price manipulation, fake transactions - page 4.

Samarkand

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Quote from: TheQuin on December 06, 2017, 09:28:17 AM

...

Bitstamp is based in Luxembourg
Bitstamp Europe S.A.
10 rue Antoine Jans
L-1820 Luxembourg
Luxembourg

So obviously is subject to EU regulation.

...

According to the mainpage of Bitstamp (bitstamp.net) they are not based in Luxembourg.

If you scroll to the bottom you can see that they are operating out of London:
Bitstamp Ltd
5 New Street Square
London EC4A 3TW
United Kingdom

They do have an office in Luxembourg though (at the address that you provided) and another one in New York (I guess
they plan to enter the US market in the future). The main operations are based in London.

They should be able to continue to service the European market due to their license in Luxembourg even
if Britain actually leaves the European Union in the next years.

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Quote from: mayax on December 06, 2017, 09:01:47 AM

according to your thinking,

Not just my thinking but the regulations and laws applicable in those countries.

Quote from: mayax on December 06, 2017, 09:01:47 AM

all these regulated companies are idiots because they have financial licenses in many countries.

No, they are following the legal requirements of each jurisdiction.

Quote from: mayax on December 06, 2017, 09:01:47 AM

example: AVA Trade is registered in Ireland so they wouldn't need a financial license in Japan, BVI or South Africa because these countries don't consider licenses to be required of companies operating in foreign countries , right?

AvaTrade has offices including:

Minatoku Akasaka
2-18-1
Tokyo

70 Grayston Drive, second floor
Sandton 2196
Johannesburg

They also use a holding company in BVI that owns some of the subsidiaries. These are operating as Forex, equities and commodities brokers in the said jurisdictions and therefore require an appropriate licence.

Quote from: mayax on December 06, 2017, 09:01:47 AM

another example is Bitstamp. They were stupids too by taking a EU license, correct?

Bitstamp is based in Luxembourg
Bitstamp Europe S.A.
10 rue Antoine Jans
L-1820 Luxembourg
Luxembourg

So obviously is subject to EU regulation.

Quote from: mayax on December 06, 2017, 09:01:47 AM

You can earn good money as "adviser". I am wondering how these companies didn't think about that too... Roll Eyes

You can earn even better money as a Corporate Attorney and these companies certainly use them.

Quote from: mayax on December 06, 2017, 09:01:47 AM

BTC-e was closed for operating an unlicensed money service business, money laundering, and related crimes.

As I stated in the last post, money laundering was the serious offence and licence issues an incidental charge that on its own would have probably only resulted in a fine.

Let me ask you another couple of questions about AvaTrade.
Why do they only hold licences in the countries they have a physical presence?
Do you think they do not accept customers from all the other countries in the world?

mayax

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Quote from: TheQuin on December 06, 2017, 07:26:36 AM

Quote from: mayax on December 06, 2017, 07:08:23 AM

Japan, Germany and many other countries requires a license for trading digital currencies like BTC.

Sometimes you can actually get something half right, but unfortunately, the other half defeats you.

Another pertinent question you didn't answer.

Quote from: TheQuin on December 06, 2017, 03:31:03 AM

You gave Japan as an example of where Bitfinex is breaking the law. Where does Japanese law state that?

Quote from: mayax on December 06, 2017, 07:08:23 AM

Does Bitfex own a Japan or EU financial license? I don't see it

It doesn't need one.

Unlike the US they don't consider licenses to be required of companies operating in foreign countries just because some of their citizens may use the service.

Quote from: mayax on December 06, 2017, 07:08:23 AM

From all you are saying is that Bitfinex don't need any financial license anywhere. Right? Cheesy

At the moment it would be only the US and even that is dubious due to the fact that the regulators reinterpreted the existing laws after the fact. That being said the US justice system is a conviction machine and they will always win in their own courts so it is possible that a few crypto exchanges may get a fine. With the BTC-e example, it is the money laundering that is the serious issue.

according to your thinking, all these regulated companies are idiots because they have financial licenses in many countries.

example: AVA Trade is registered in Ireland so they wouldn't need a financial license in Japan, BVI or South Africa because these countries don't consider licenses to be required of companies operating in foreign countries , right?

another example is Bitstamp. They were stupids too by taking a EU license, correct?

You can earn good money as "adviser". I am wondering how these companies didn't think about that too... Roll Eyes

BTC-e was closed for operating an unlicensed money service business, money laundering, and related crimes.

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Quote from: mayax on December 06, 2017, 07:08:23 AM

Japan, Germany and many other countries requires a license for trading digital currencies like BTC.

Sometimes you can actually get something half right, but unfortunately, the other half defeats you.

Another pertinent question you didn't answer.

Quote from: TheQuin on December 06, 2017, 03:31:03 AM

You gave Japan as an example of where Bitfinex is breaking the law. Where does Japanese law state that?

Quote from: mayax on December 06, 2017, 07:08:23 AM

Does Bitfex own a Japan or EU financial license? I don't see it

It doesn't need one.

Unlike the US they don't consider licenses to be required of companies operating in foreign countries just because some of their citizens may use the service.

Quote from: mayax on December 06, 2017, 07:08:23 AM

From all you are saying is that Bitfinex don't need any financial license anywhere. Right? Cheesy

At the moment it would be only the US and even that is dubious due to the fact that the regulators reinterpreted the existing laws after the fact. That being said the US justice system is a conviction machine and they will always win in their own courts so it is possible that a few crypto exchanges may get a fine. With the BTC-e example, it is the money laundering that is the serious issue.

mayax

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Quote from: TheQuin on December 06, 2017, 06:48:10 AM

Quote from: mayax on December 06, 2017, 06:41:12 AM

Again, I will give you a simple example of a REAL forex company(they trade BTC too) and their licenses:

I used to an account with them. They have offices in all those countries and trade forex, equities and commodities too, hence requiring licences in those countries, unlike Bitfinex.

Japan, Germany and many other countries requires a license for trading digital currencies like BTC.

I can show you where BaFin (German Federal Financial Supervisory Authority) requires a licence for trading Bitcoin.

Does Bitfex own a Japan or EU financial license? I don't see it

From all you are saying is that Bitfinex don't need any financial license anywhere. Right? Cheesy

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Quote from: mayax on December 06, 2017, 06:41:12 AM

Again, I will give you a simple example of a REAL forex company(they trade BTC too) and their licenses:

I used to have an account with them. They have offices in all those countries and trade forex, equities and commodities too, hence requiring licences in those countries, unlike Bitfinex.

mayax

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Quote from: TheQuin on December 06, 2017, 03:31:03 AM

Quote from: mayax on December 05, 2017, 06:14:31 PM

"The likelihood of enforcement actions is usually the main factor in deciding whether to get the proper licenses. "

"Online businesses are supposed to apply for licenses where they operate (read: where their customers reside) if their business requires licensing"

As I pointed out in my last post this is specific to US law and their interpretation of whether they can enforce their laws on other countries. I also said that Bitfinex has responded to this action by the US by barring all US based customers. This is the same as has happened in the online gaming industry and so far has been successful in allowing them to continue their lawful businesses wherever they are based.

You gave Japan as an example of where Bitfinex is breaking the law. Where does Japanese law state that?

Quote from: mayax on December 05, 2017, 06:14:31 PM

Conclusion: all the countries request license for a business like Bitfinex because it's a financial business; all the countries(even BVI, Belize, Bermuda, etc) have laws regarding to the trading and operating as money transmitter. Indeed, not many countries enforce their laws but it doesn't mean that that business is legal.

You neglect the fact that most of these countries do not specify Cryptocurrencies specifically in their laws and currently do not requires these businesses to meet any more licencing requirements than they already do.

Quote from: mayax on December 05, 2017, 06:14:31 PM

Bitfinex like many(most) other exchangers are illegal. I am not even mention the other shits that Bitfinex is doing, just the absence of their license. So, Bitfinex is a criminal (lawbreaker, felonious) company..

Still not true.

Quote from: mayax on December 05, 2017, 06:14:31 PM

It's not hard to understand...

It is for you.

Again, I will give you a simple example of a REAL forex company(they trade BTC too) and their licenses:

http://www.avatrade.com/forex/cryptocurrencies/bitcoin (see the bottom):

AVA Trade EU Ltd is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland (No.C53877)
AVA Trade Ltd is regulated by the B.V.I Financial Services Commission (remember BVI? Bitfinex is registered in this country. Did you notice any license number from the B.V.I Financial Services Commission) ?
Ava Capital Markets Australia Pty Ltd is regulated by the ASIC (No.406684)
Ava Capital Markets Pty is regulated by the South African Financial Services Board (FSP No.445984)
Ava Trade Japan K.K. is regulated in Japan by the FSA (No.1662) and the FFAJ (No.1574)

This is how it should look a genuine licensed company.

Do you think that this company is stupid and they just throw the money away on these licenses? I guess not.

I can give more examples. See https://www.oanda.com (at the bottom/footer) . See a difference between a shit like Bitfinex and licensed company like Oanda.com ?

Can you show me where can you see one license number on Bitfinex website? You stated above that they have a such thing. Where?

Samarkand

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Quote from: squatter on December 04, 2017, 06:30:45 PM

...
I don't believe that Hong Kong is relevant anymore. There used to be some parent company registrations there and supposedly some operations are still run from HK. But if you read Bitfinex's terms, all services are governed by British Virgin Islands law. BVI regulators haven't done anything for the same reason Bitfinex sought jurisdiction there. BVI is a rubber stamp regulator, like many independent island nations. They rarely enforce any laws against anyone. For anything.

...

Great analysis of the situation.

However, I think there is at least one other reason why they decided to set up shop in the British Virgin islands
apart from the "rubber stamp regulation". If you are running a questionable business it makes sense to incorporate in
one of these exotic islands, because it is incredibly hard, expensive and tiresome to litigate against an offshore business.

In the hypothetical case that Bitfinex will face lawsuits by investors or traders they are pretty safe, because not many
are going to be willing or even be able to sue them before a court in the British Virgin islands.

Therefore I´d argue that the two big reasons to incorporate in the BVIs are the lax regulation and the protection
from lawsuits that offshore jurisdictions offer.

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Quote from: mayax on December 05, 2017, 06:14:31 PM

"The likelihood of enforcement actions is usually the main factor in deciding whether to get the proper licenses. "

"Online businesses are supposed to apply for licenses where they operate (read: where their customers reside) if their business requires licensing"

As I pointed out in my last post this is specific to US law and their interpretation of whether they can enforce their laws on other countries. I also said that Bitfinex has responded to this action by the US by barring all US based customers. This is the same as has happened in the online gaming industry and so far has been successful in allowing them to continue their lawful businesses wherever they are based.

You gave Japan as an example of where Bitfinex is breaking the law. Where does Japanese law state that?

Quote from: mayax on December 05, 2017, 06:14:31 PM

Conclusion: all the countries request license for a business like Bitfinex because it's a financial business; all the countries(even BVI, Belize, Bermuda, etc) have laws regarding to the trading and operating as money transmitter. Indeed, not many countries enforce their laws but it doesn't mean that that business is legal.

You neglect the fact that most of these countries do not specify Cryptocurrencies specifically in their laws and currently do not requires these businesses to meet any more licencing requirements than they already do.

Quote from: mayax on December 05, 2017, 06:14:31 PM

Bitfinex like many(most) other exchangers are illegal. I am not even mention the other shits that Bitfinex is doing, just the absence of their license. So, Bitfinex is a criminal (lawbreaker, felonious) company..

Still not true.

Quote from: mayax on December 05, 2017, 06:14:31 PM

It's not hard to understand...

It is for you.

mayax

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Quote from: squatter on December 05, 2017, 05:31:36 PM

Quote from: TheQuin on December 05, 2017, 09:32:25 AM

Quote from: mayax on December 05, 2017, 09:19:31 AM

Bitfinex operates worldwide. According to your words, if they are registered in BVI that means they can trade in USA as well...because they are not based in USA.

"Trading in" means having a business presence in not having customers in. Under your logic, every online business would have to apply for licences in every jurisdiction in the world.

The US government interprets jurisdiction based on operational presence (corporate registrations, headquarters), jurisdiction of customers, or both. If you read the BTC-e indictment, the DOJ established that BTC-e offering services to Americans partially formed the basis for charging them:

From page 2 of the indictment:

Quote

Despite doing substantial business in the United States, BTC-e was not registered as a money services business with the United States Department of the Treasury's Financial Crimes Enforcement Network ("FinCEN"), as federal law requires. As described below, BTC-e had no meaningful anti-money laundering processes in place and lacked an effective anti-money laundering program, as federal law also requires.

Online businesses are supposed to apply for licenses where they operate (read: where their customers reside) if their business requires licensing. In many cases, licenses are not required. However, money services businesses (or equivalent) are required to be registered and licensed in many jurisdictions, such as the US.

Whether or not an exchange should obtain a license is a matter of risk analysis. The likelihood of enforcement actions is usually the main factor in deciding whether to get the proper licenses.

"The likelihood of enforcement actions is usually the main factor in deciding whether to get the proper licenses. "

"Online businesses are supposed to apply for licenses where they operate (read: where their customers reside) if their business requires licensing"

GREAT POINT !

Conclusion: all the countries request license for a business like Bitfinex because it's a financial business; all the countries(even BVI, Belize, Bermuda, etc) have laws regarding to the trading and operating as money transmitter. Indeed, not many countries enforce their laws but it doesn't mean that that business is legal.

Bitfinex like many(most) other exchangers are illegal. I am not even mention the other shits that Bitfinex is doing, just the absence of their license. So, Bitfinex is a criminal (lawbreaker, felonious) company..

It's not hard to understand...

squatter

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STOP SNITCHIN'

Quote from: TheQuin on December 05, 2017, 09:32:25 AM

Quote from: mayax on December 05, 2017, 09:19:31 AM

Bitfinex operates worldwide. According to your words, if they are registered in BVI that means they can trade in USA as well...because they are not based in USA.

"Trading in" means having a business presence in not having customers in. Under your logic, every online business would have to apply for licences in every jurisdiction in the world.

The US government interprets jurisdiction based on operational presence (corporate registrations, headquarters), jurisdiction of customers, or both. If you read the BTC-e indictment, the DOJ established that BTC-e offering services to Americans partially formed the basis for charging them:

From page 2 of the indictment:

Quote

Despite doing substantial business in the United States, BTC-e was not registered as a money services business with the United States Department of the Treasury's Financial Crimes Enforcement Network ("FinCEN"), as federal law requires. As described below, BTC-e had no meaningful anti-money laundering processes in place and lacked an effective anti-money laundering program, as federal law also requires.

Online businesses are supposed to apply for licenses where they operate (read: where their customers reside) if their business requires licensing. In many cases, licenses are not required. However, money services businesses (or equivalent) are required to be registered and licensed in many jurisdictions, such as the US.

Whether or not an exchange should obtain a license is a matter of risk analysis. The likelihood of enforcement actions is usually the main factor in deciding whether to get the proper licenses.

Pab

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Bloomberg article https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-05/mystery-shrouds-tether-and-its-links-to-biggest-bitcoin-exchange

Regulators gov agencies dont be funny,usa shuted down btc-e becouse of Russia,what a brave FBI action to arrest btc-e russian owner,look our great work,how we protect you,commedy

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Quote from: mayax on December 05, 2017, 09:19:31 AM

Bitfinex operates worldwide. According to your words, if they are registered in BVI that means they can trade in USA as well...because they are not based in USA.

"Trading in" means having a business presence in not having customers in. Under your logic, every online business would have to apply for licences in every jurisdiction in the world.

The US is well known for its attempts to police the world, Japan not so.

Taking the example of online casinos many have chosen to block customers of certain countries if they feel that there is a chance of some legal attempt to impose another countries laws on them. Bitfinex's move with US customers shows this pattern is starting to spread.

Quote from: mayax on December 05, 2017, 09:19:31 AM

As you can KNOW, it' NOT true.

But you are either an ignorant, a shill or Bitfinex staff. It's OK but try to make your homework before trying to argue... The silence is sometimes better Wink

I know what I know and I will leave others to decide which of us is better informed.

mayax

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Quote from: TheQuin on December 05, 2017, 06:53:09 AM

Quote from: mayax on December 05, 2017, 06:28:09 AM

a very simple example: Bitfinex is trading in Japan and they NEED a license for that

Really? You were telling us that they are in the British Virgin Islands.

Bitfinex operates worldwide. According to your words, if they are registered in BVI that means they can trade in USA as well...because they are not based in USA.

As you can KNOW, it' NOT true.

But you are either an ignorant, a shill or Bitfinex staff. It's OK but try to make your homework before trying to argue... The silence is sometimes better Wink

Pab

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Bitfinex is not licensed,there is no proof that bitfinex/tether has agreement with banks,so 1-1 redeem usdt-usd is pure fiction,instead paradise papers are showing that bitfinex has offshore account in Panama

Last fun is Bitfinex hire law firm to open lawsuit against one guy from twitter,same like thay did with wells.&fargo

https://www.coindesk.com/bitfinex-vs-bitfinexed-exchange-hires-law-firm-challenge-critics/

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Quote from: mayax on December 05, 2017, 06:28:09 AM

a very simple example: Bitfinex is trading in Japan and they NEED a license for that

Really? You were telling us that they are in the British Virgin Islands.

mayax

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Quote from: TheQuin on December 05, 2017, 05:33:40 AM

Quote from: mayax on December 05, 2017, 05:30:10 AM

please show me where I am wrong (with valid proofs). Are they licensed or what?

Please show me valid proof that they are breaking any law or are trading without a required licence in any jurisdiction they do business in.

a very simple example: Bitfinex is trading in Japan and they NEED a license for that

https://bitlegal.io/2017/04/09/jfsa-fintech-support/

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Quote from: mayax on December 05, 2017, 05:30:10 AM

please show me where I am wrong (with valid proofs). Are they licensed or what?

Please show me valid proof that they are breaking any law or are trading without a required licence in any jurisdiction they do business in.

mayax

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Quote from: TheQuin on December 05, 2017, 05:28:58 AM

Quote from: mayax on December 05, 2017, 05:26:42 AM

past offences? Bitfinex is illegal in any country because ALL the jurisdictions require a financial license for what Bitfines is doing.

Bitfinex is like BTC-e and like many other unlicensed exchangers = fraudulent companies. These exchangers must be closed. Only when all the exchangers will be regulated, BTC will be mainstream.

Just because you keep repeating it doesn't make it any truer or make any more sense.

please show me where I am wrong (with valid proofs). Are they licensed or what?

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Quote from: mayax on December 05, 2017, 05:26:42 AM

past offences? Bitfinex is illegal in any country because ALL the jurisdictions require a financial license for what Bitfines is doing.

Bitfinex is like BTC-e and like many other unlicensed exchangers = fraudulent companies. These exchangers must be closed. Only when all the exchangers will be regulated, BTC will be mainstream.

Just because you keep repeating it doesn't make it any truer or make any more sense.

Topic: Bitfinex - FRAUD, price manipulation, fake transactions - page 4. (Read 4933 times)