[BitFunder] IceDrill.ASIC IPO (235 Thash Mining Operation powered by HashFast) - page 78.

will

full member

Activity: 179

Merit: 100

Quote from: Bargraphics on October 14, 2013, 04:37:50 PM

For those of us who are still contemplating on keeping their shares, will IceDrill be doing direct shares since as a US Citizen I cannot keep my shares on Bitfunder after Dec 2nd.

Yes, our handling of direct shares is a necessity and should be considered a given. On Dec 2nd we'll be given a list of bitcoin addresses and their relevant share holdings. Exactly how we'll handle this share transfer will be made crystal clear well before that date (it's a current priority item).

Bargraphics

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 500

Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do.

For those of us who are still contemplating on keeping their shares, will IceDrill be doing direct shares since as a US Citizen I cannot keep my shares on Bitfunder after Dec 2nd.

will

full member

Activity: 179

Merit: 100

EDIT: Apologies for the late posting on this, wanted to get a couple of feedback loops on it first.

Share destruction: hosting option summary

The Batch 1 Sierra units will undergo final assembly in Canada. We will pick up the machines directly from the manufacturer and begin deployment within 24 hours of the pickup. Machines will be deployed on a prorated order. For example if 20% of the hardware is converted in this way, every 5th machine we receive will be deployed to the investor hardware pool on a first-come first-served basis.

The hosting solution includes the following:

Shipping & delivery
Setup
Maintenance
Electricity cost
Cooling
No customs risk
24/7 Support
All supporting equipment (racks, shelves, cabling, PDUs, controller servers, etc.)
Replacement and reinstallation of any faulty hardware within 24* business hours.
Hosting term: 1 year.

All inclusive cost: 252 USD per Sierra unit per month, based on 1000W continuous power consumption.

Options offered to the investor:

The all-inclusive cost will be covered directly from mining output of your hardware. No further investment will be required. This cost coverage will be locked in with the first couple of days of mining.

Full-service management of software and we give you access to our monitoring software so you know what your machines are doing at all times.
Full access to all our research on overclocking, underclocking, cooling enhancements, infrastructure improvements and any other improvements.
Option to implement above hardware/infrastructure research results on an ad-hoc basis. Note that any implemented customization that will void the warrantee of the machines will be at the behest (and therefore risk) of the hardware owner. The customization work will be done by DigiMex, but any extra costs incurred (e.g. higher power consumption by overclocking) will necessarily have to be covered by the investor’s mining output.
Reinvestment: We would like to stay true to the original contract and negotiate a reinvestment clause at the start of the contract to have us both benefit from the cost-efficiency of bulk purchases. We understand that we cannot force it as you’ll retain ownership of the hardware, so this agreement will be negotiated on a case-by-case basis.

*waiting on confirmation from Hashfast regarding the exact RMA agreement.

Please note we did state that 15 October would be a deadline for a decision. This really only applies for the non-hosted option of taking delivery yourself. If you host it with us, the re-routing of the hardware is obviously unnecessary.

Bargraphics

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 500

Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do.

Quote from: DeaDTerra on October 14, 2013, 03:02:51 PM

Quote from: Bargraphics on October 14, 2013, 03:01:02 PM

Quote from: will on October 09, 2013, 03:40:46 PM

Please note this proposal will necessarily have an execution deadline of midnight 15 October (UTC) in order to ensure ample notice for delivery re-routing, as required.

It seems time is running out,

Can we have an update of our current options or if there were any modifications/changes to existing options?

We are finalizing the conversion to Hardware option and we are also working on finalizing a second option.
A update will be out soon.
//DeaDTerra

Thank you

DeaDTerra

donator

Activity: 1064

Merit: 1000

Quote from: Bargraphics on October 14, 2013, 03:01:02 PM

Quote from: will on October 09, 2013, 03:40:46 PM

Please note this proposal will necessarily have an execution deadline of midnight 15 October (UTC) in order to ensure ample notice for delivery re-routing, as required.

It seems time is running out,

Can we have an update of our current options or if there were any modifications/changes to existing options?

We are finalizing the conversion to Hardware option and we are also working on finalizing a second option.
A update will be out soon.
//DeaDTerra

Bargraphics

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 500

Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do.

Quote from: will on October 09, 2013, 03:40:46 PM

Please note this proposal will necessarily have an execution deadline of midnight 15 October (UTC) in order to ensure ample notice for delivery re-routing, as required.

It seems time is running out,

Can we have an update of our current options or if there were any modifications/changes to existing options?

crumbs

full member

Activity: 210

Merit: 100

Quote from: cowandtea on October 14, 2013, 11:09:38 AM

So, people want refund when they make loses. That is very smart

Sure they want a refund -- even in this thread it's generally known that getting a refund is more desirable than nothing. Don't underestimate the collective financial acumen of folks here.

Most of them also seem to ignore the plainly-worded user agreements, such as the one found on Bitfunder:

"We (BitFunder) do not accept responsibility for anything.
WARNING: Use at your own risk.
You must agree to 1 and 2."

cowandtea

sr. member

Activity: 434

Merit: 250

So, people want refund when they make loses. That is very smart

crumbs

full member

Activity: 210

Merit: 100

Quote from: CanOpener on October 14, 2013, 07:30:50 AM

wahaha, did you realize that you pointed out the flaw in your own argument? So, you expect that someone would guarantee you our investment even though the exchange rate fluctuates all the time? Please study something called quanto before you even talk about finance with me. I just have to chuckle when people like you expect everyone else to take a loss just because your investment deserves principal protection.

oh, your grasp on regulation is even more of a joke. The shut down of BTC-TC and BitFunder change happened just recently before IceDrill went IPO'ed. So, you are telling me that you can regulate ahead of SEC?

If you need a lesson about anything, feel free to ask because I am sure that most people in this forum can teach you a lot about everything. No joke.

Quote from: crumbs on October 13, 2013, 10:16:26 AM

Quote from: CanOpener on October 13, 2013, 08:18:14 AM

The shares were issued when BTC spot was 100. Spot is now close to 130. So, if they buy back at 0.0016 BTC per share, wouldn't they lose 30% for no reason? Come on, people. Besides, they would have given up all their BitCoins to HashFast for the hardware. Where would they have the money to buy any shares back? I love freebies too but some people are simply asking for too much.

In terms of change in regulation, I am pretty sure it will only get worse from here. Just like CFTC rules, they don't need to make sense but they dare you to not obey them. (just my two cents)

and did someone mention financial crime? can someone tell me who is the legal authority in BitCoin community? where can I find the laws related to BitCoin?

You seem to have a rather tenuous grasp of finance. IceDrill shares were purchased with BTC, the exchange rate of BTC/$ is irrelevant. If you bought a plushy at a One & Dime for $1, and tried to return it for $2.00 by claiming that "the dollar now buys only half as much bitcoin as when I bought this plushy," the nice checkout lady would tell you to GTFO. Justly so.

As far as "what financial crime": The crime of selling unregistered securities to US persons by a US-based unlicensed exchange. US SEC has jurisdiction. That should get you started.

If you'd like to haz moar learnings, don't hesitate to ask

I'll make this short & sweet: IceDril.ASIC has nothing to do with quanto, the underlying is not denominated in USD. If you believe that it is, you're mistaken.

Further, BTCT & Bitfunder were not "shut down by the SEC." If you know more than the rest of us about the [pending] closures, feel free to share. The legal status of unlicensed exchanges & unregistered securities hasn't changed here in US for A_COONS_AGE * 50

If you are interested in adding moar naughts to UR monyz, i suggest you forego reading this forum & get some skoolin'. Or panhandle. Up 2 U.

CanOpener

newbie

Activity: 34

Merit: 0

wahaha, did you realize that you pointed out the flaw in your own argument? So, you expect that someone would guarantee you our investment even though the exchange rate fluctuates all the time? Please study something called quanto before you even talk about finance with me. I just have to chuckle when people like you expect everyone else to take a loss just because your investment deserves principal protection.

oh, your grasp on regulation is even more of a joke. The shut down of BTC-TC and BitFunder change happened just recently before IceDrill went IPO'ed. So, you are telling me that you can regulate ahead of SEC?

If you need a lesson about anything, feel free to ask because I am sure that most people in this forum can teach you a lot about everything. No joke.

Quote from: crumbs on October 13, 2013, 10:16:26 AM

Quote from: CanOpener on October 13, 2013, 08:18:14 AM

The shares were issued when BTC spot was 100. Spot is now close to 130. So, if they buy back at 0.0016 BTC per share, wouldn't they lose 30% for no reason? Come on, people. Besides, they would have given up all their BitCoins to HashFast for the hardware. Where would they have the money to buy any shares back? I love freebies too but some people are simply asking for too much.

In terms of change in regulation, I am pretty sure it will only get worse from here. Just like CFTC rules, they don't need to make sense but they dare you to not obey them. (just my two cents)

and did someone mention financial crime? can someone tell me who is the legal authority in BitCoin community? where can I find the laws related to BitCoin?

You seem to have a rather tenuous grasp of finance. IceDrill shares were purchased with BTC, the exchange rate of BTC/$ is irrelevant. If you bought a plushy at a One & Dime for $1, and tried to return it for $2.00 by claiming that "the dollar now buys only half as much bitcoin as when I bought this plushy," the nice checkout lady would tell you to GTFO. Justly so.

As far as "what financial crime": The crime of selling unregistered securities to US persons by a US-based unlicensed exchange. US SEC has jurisdiction. That should get you started.

If you'd like to haz moar learnings, don't hesitate to ask

dunchy

sr. member

Activity: 299

Merit: 250

Why is nobody getting an idea to organize people for Sierra group buys using shares ?? For example:

Say you're an US citizen who right now has an offer from IceDrill to bail out and get a Sierra for 120k shares. At the same time you have sufficient credibility here so that people can trust you and enough knowledge and infrastructure to handle the unit at home or you can make a deal on hosting. At the same time you don't have 120k shares for a whole unit or don't even have any IceDrill shares for that matter. You can exploit this offer just by being a US citizen.

Why don't you offer a group buy to gather 120k shares for all the people who'd like to get out now, they just pass them to you on your BitFunder account and you call IceDrill on your right to take one unit?

I would be the first one interested.

molecular

donator

Activity: 2772

Merit: 1019

Quote from: Eisenhower34 on October 14, 2013, 03:12:18 AM

First, why do people attack IceDrill? Its not their fault whats happening and they are trying to find a solution for this.
Second, why is "buyback" still on the table? IceDrill spent the money to buy hardware, so they cannot issue any buyback.
Third, whats the problem now that we know that IceDrill will have all data (amount of shares, btc address) to manage all shares themself?

Really I understand most of you people less and less...

Isn't this clear? They see a way to maybe somehow wiggle out of their so-far-bad investment and blame the fault on someone else.

Eisenhower34

legendary

Activity: 906

Merit: 1002

First, why do people attack IceDrill? Its not their fault whats happening and they are trying to find a solution for this.
Second, why is "buyback" still on the table? IceDrill spent the money to buy hardware, so they cannot issue any buyback.
Third, whats the problem now that we know that IceDrill will have all data (amount of shares, btc address) to manage all shares themself?

Really I understand most of you people less and less...

crumbs

full member

Activity: 210

Merit: 100

Quote from: CanOpener on October 13, 2013, 08:18:14 AM

The shares were issued when BTC spot was 100. Spot is now close to 130. So, if they buy back at 0.0016 BTC per share, wouldn't they lose 30% for no reason? Come on, people. Besides, they would have given up all their BitCoins to HashFast for the hardware. Where would they have the money to buy any shares back? I love freebies too but some people are simply asking for too much.

In terms of change in regulation, I am pretty sure it will only get worse from here. Just like CFTC rules, they don't need to make sense but they dare you to not obey them. (just my two cents)

and did someone mention financial crime? can someone tell me who is the legal authority in BitCoin community? where can I find the laws related to BitCoin?

You seem to have a rather tenuous grasp of finance. IceDrill shares were purchased with BTC, the exchange rate of BTC/$ is irrelevant. If you bought a plushy at a One & Dime for $1, and tried to return it for $2.00 by claiming that "the dollar now buys only half as much bitcoin as when I bought this plushy," the nice checkout lady would tell you to GTFO. Justly so.

As far as "what financial crime": The crime of selling unregistered securities to US persons by a US-based unlicensed exchange. US SEC has jurisdiction. That should get you started.

If you'd like to haz moar learnings, don't hesitate to ask

cowandtea

sr. member

Activity: 434

Merit: 250

Quote from: VolanicEruptor on October 13, 2013, 09:43:57 AM

Share price reflecting a change in BTC value would only make sense if shareholders were getting paid fiat for dividends, or something awkward like that. If dividends are paid in BTC, and shares were bought with BTC, and shares are sold in BTC, then the price of a BTC should be able to go up and down without any change in share price.

Wrong, because HashFast is priced at USD. If the price of Bitcoin went up to $1000, you would expect people to sell the share and buy the ASIC instead. Thus share price drop 10x.

VolanicEruptor

sr. member

Activity: 392

Merit: 250

Share price reflecting a change in BTC value would only make sense if shareholders were getting paid fiat for dividends, or something awkward like that. If dividends are paid in BTC, and shares were bought with BTC, and shares are sold in BTC, then the price of a BTC should be able to go up and down without any change in share price.

CanOpener

newbie

Activity: 34

Merit: 0

The shares were issued when BTC spot was 100. Spot is now close to 130. So, if they buy back at 0.0016 BTC per share, wouldn't they lose 30% for no reason? Come on, people. Besides, they would have given up all their BitCoins to HashFast for the hardware. Where would they have the money to buy any shares back? I love freebies too but some people are simply asking for too much.

In terms of change in regulation, I am pretty sure it will only get worse from here. Just like CFTC rules, they don't need to make sense but they dare you to not obey them. (just my two cents)

and did someone mention financial crime? can someone tell me who is the legal authority in BitCoin community? where can I find the laws related to BitCoin?

pmorici

sr. member

Activity: 479

Merit: 250

FYI, looks like bitFunder posted the following addition to their original Oct. 8th notice clarifying what will happen to US share holders who don't sell by the stated Nov. 1st deadline...

Quote

Supplemental Notice (October 11, 2013)

As of October 8, 2013, BitFunder is not assessing any new fees against any user BitFunder knows to be a U.S. person and whose account will be restricted in accordance with BitFunder's October 8, 2013 notice.

Users who are U.S. persons or users who fail for any reason to provide the information necessary to obtain "Verified" status are encouraged to transfer their shares from the BitFunder site to the respective issuer(s) no later than December 1, 2013.

As of December 2, 2013, BitFunder will initiate a transfer from the BitFunder site to the respective issuer(s) of any remaining shares held by any users that BitFunder knows to be U.S. persons or who did not obtain "Verified" status by December 1, 2013, and will provide the issuer(s) with the public bitcoin address associated with the user account. After transfer, each user will need to work with the issuer(s) with respect to the future treatment of the shares.

On December 2, 2013, all bitcoin balances in the accounts of users that BitFunder knows to be U.S. persons and users that did not obtain "Verified" status by December 1 will be transferred to their linked WeExchange accounts.

Sounds like they will transfer the share holder's info to the original issuer on Dec. 1st and leave the responsibility of servicing those shares/ shareholders up to the issuer. When can we expect more info from IceDrill on a reasonable plan?

crumbs

full member

Activity: 210

Merit: 100

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: crumbs on October 11, 2013, 07:27:39 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: fattypig on October 11, 2013, 11:07:08 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: will on October 10, 2013, 05:40:24 AM

Hi All

We've been reading all of the feedback and will answer all questions and address all concerns shortly.

Why not just give US investors their money back for what they paid on shares? I would be happy with that. If I was going to buy hardware I would just buy directly from hashfast instead of through you. If you're unable to live up to the terms of the arrangement for whatever reason, it's not the investors fault. Just issue a refund to all US investors and move on. If you have to take a loss to do so, so be it. Stop pushing your problems off onto investors.

Investors should also stop pushing the problems to icedrill. it's not icedrill fault either. why not blame Bitfunder or Government?

Refund sounds even weird, since when bad investment decision get refunded?

It's just buying back shares. If they're not allowed to issue shares to US nationals. There is precedent for this. In the philippines there is a constitutional provision limiting foreign ownership of any company in specific sectors or not meeting specific guidelines to 60/40 ownership (40% foreign limitation). In one case the largest telecom PLDT had 60% ownership by foreign corporations due to some legal wrangling and changes in various laws (non-voting vs voting stock). They had the option to issue more shares, or buy back some shares from these foreign corporations. They did both (issuing additional new shares to filipino investors, and buying back some from foreign investors).

Buying back at current market rate up to 0.0014 - 0.0015 would allow them to have / keep considerable gains (from all shares at current levels up to 0.0014-0.0015).

Philippine telecom case is "presidence" for unregistered securities sold to Americans?

I wouldn't want a buy back if I wasn't forced into it. Nothing I can do about it, nothing they can do about it. As said before, most people do not have anywhere near the 120,000 shares to get a unit. They have not confirmed yet if it would be possible to get baby jet batch 1s for 40,000 shares. There are many people with less than those 2 figures anyway where a buy back is the only real option.

I'm saying there is precedent where a buy back is forced due to government actions. That is all.

Thank you for the informative wikip lesson, "precedent" is a fascinating word which i won't soon forget.
Allow me to return the favor with a lesson of my own: There is no "government-forced buyback" here. No government, including that of Philippines, has forced a buyback. What we do have here is a case of financial crime, for which the precedents are many & easy to find.
(Did i use that word right?)

crumbs

full member

Activity: 210

Merit: 100

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: fattypig on October 11, 2013, 11:07:08 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: will on October 10, 2013, 05:40:24 AM

Hi All

We've been reading all of the feedback and will answer all questions and address all concerns shortly.

Why not just give US investors their money back for what they paid on shares? I would be happy with that. If I was going to buy hardware I would just buy directly from hashfast instead of through you. If you're unable to live up to the terms of the arrangement for whatever reason, it's not the investors fault. Just issue a refund to all US investors and move on. If you have to take a loss to do so, so be it. Stop pushing your problems off onto investors.

Investors should also stop pushing the problems to icedrill. it's not icedrill fault either. why not blame Bitfunder or Government?

Refund sounds even weird, since when bad investment decision get refunded?

It's just buying back shares. If they're not allowed to issue shares to US nationals. There is precedent for this. In the philippines there is a constitutional provision limiting foreign ownership of any company in specific sectors or not meeting specific guidelines to 60/40 ownership (40% foreign limitation). In one case the largest telecom PLDT had 60% ownership by foreign corporations due to some legal wrangling and changes in various laws (non-voting vs voting stock). They had the option to issue more shares, or buy back some shares from these foreign corporations. They did both (issuing additional new shares to filipino investors, and buying back some from foreign investors).

Buying back at current market rate up to 0.0014 - 0.0015 would allow them to have / keep considerable gains (from all shares at current levels up to 0.0014-0.0015).

Philippine telecom case is "presidence" for unregistered securities sold to Americans?

Topic: [BitFunder] IceDrill.ASIC IPO (235 Thash Mining Operation powered by HashFast) - page 78. (Read 378675 times)