one this thread does need to get back to development.
but I dont think hopping is much of a secret.. Still I agree people.. like me.. should tone it down a bit.
And it is Not all that profitable for the work involved. I get about 0.1 BTC a day more than i would normally.. no lie, but it keeps it a bit better than my electricity costs. and keeps me going for a tiny bit longer.
Topic: bitHopper: Python Pool Hopper Proxy - page 19. (Read 355712 times)
You guys are just stupid. If your had just shut up or at least kept your bragging of how profitable it is and your silly attempts at justifying pool jumping to this thread you could have gotten away with it for a while longer. Now you're even doing it in the pool's threads. That has of course pissed off the miners who wasn't aware of what is going on, putting even more pressure on the pool owners to protect the more loyal users.
I think you want the "Is pool hopping ethical" thread.
You guys are just stupid. If your had just shut up or at least kept your bragging of how profitable it is and your silly attempts at justifying pool jumping to this thread you could have gotten away with it for a while longer. Now you're even doing it in the pool's threads. That has of course pissed off the miners who wasn't aware of what is going on, putting even more pressure on the pool owners to protect the more loyal users.
Which is why you would use a new address for every block, call it a security feature or whatever 
w. When they do steal blocks they submit them under their private wallet, not through their pool.
But the miners found a hash for the block with an address belonging to a pool. Pool owner cannot change the address, as it would render the hash useless.
Pool owner can hide the block and don't report it on website and don't pay for it. If it is rare enough, then it would be hard to detect.
I think the reasons are 1. That would take some effort, 2. Math fail (such as the below-mentioned pool op not believing that pool hoppers reduce earnings, and me being unable to communicate with him in the language of integral calculus and binomial statistics, since he's working at a hosting company at the age I was studying engineering), 3. User resistance (typical PPLNS conversion discussion: "I don't like the idea of my shares expiring..."), and 4. Greed - hopping doesn't reduce the earnings of pool ops, just the users, and more block solves = more fees they get to keep.
...
I am referring to the instability and extra work that hoppers create for pool operators and their users. I happen to know several network problems at bitcoins.lc were from pool hoppers, specifically from hundreds of connections a second being opened by the multipool op and other unknown actors, essentially DDOSing the pool. Jine had to implement firewall caching because of the load the constant stat-refreshing was causing, and had to switch over to to a VM environment with load distribution between six different servers, because proxied and aggregated connections were not re-using TCP sessions properly and would run pushpoold out of TCP/IP ports and crash the pool for all the users. That I might be bitter about, along with having to switch my higher aggression mining tasks to a PPLNS pool instead of my first choice, to avoid earning measurably less.
I do somewhat agree that the game is flawed if you have to kick out the card counters. However, you aren't taking from the house, you are taking from other miners in a situation where the ideal would be that we pool our resources for the good of all. My response is to the self-justifying posts every few pages of this thread that "pools should be glad, we help them solve blocks", or "xxx pool is unscrupulous a-holes because they are taking measures against pool hopping".
...
I am referring to the instability and extra work that hoppers create for pool operators and their users. I happen to know several network problems at bitcoins.lc were from pool hoppers, specifically from hundreds of connections a second being opened by the multipool op and other unknown actors, essentially DDOSing the pool. Jine had to implement firewall caching because of the load the constant stat-refreshing was causing, and had to switch over to to a VM environment with load distribution between six different servers, because proxied and aggregated connections were not re-using TCP sessions properly and would run pushpoold out of TCP/IP ports and crash the pool for all the users. That I might be bitter about, along with having to switch my higher aggression mining tasks to a PPLNS pool instead of my first choice, to avoid earning measurably less.
I do somewhat agree that the game is flawed if you have to kick out the card counters. However, you aren't taking from the house, you are taking from other miners in a situation where the ideal would be that we pool our resources for the good of all. My response is to the self-justifying posts every few pages of this thread that "pools should be glad, we help them solve blocks", or "xxx pool is unscrupulous a-holes because they are taking measures against pool hopping".
Yes, all of the aboove are viable reasons. But that's the real world, if someone is lazy or ignorant, then they ususally get less paid job than someone smart. It is true, that on a pool with hoppers, miners will receive less money. Actually the more correct, would be that on the pool with hoppers, miners receive the exact money they are supposed to receive on a Prop pool. Without hoppers they just receive more bonuses from the short blocks. Blaming hoppers for this is like blaming poker players that they only play good hands and fold on bad hands. Or blaming some people that they only buy lottery coupons when there is a cumulation and the EV from such buy is above 0 and as such reducing the reward for everyday-lottery-players. Hoppers so use the system for their benefits. The first people who started using GPU instead of CPU for mining were also using the system for their benefits, where they suddenly found an "unfair" advantage.
Network stability is related to the implementation of hopping rather than hopping itself. Hopefully BH will improve and be more efficient with retrieving data. But still, our first choice is JSON, which should be cheap for the pool server. If a pool fakes JSON then we download their website
Mining is a game of chance and game of skill. To mine effectively, you need to use the best software and best hardware, otherwise the results are going to be sub-optimal. Every new GPU added to the network causes all other miners to loose their income. Every new version of mining software kernels also give more money to miners using it on the expense of miners who don't. Mining bitcoins is all about taking it from other miners.
What's really frustrating is how much hate is directed against such a small slice of the mining pie. Only about 300 Gigahash is hoppers out of 13 terahash total mining. It's less than 3% of the miners! And all these pool ops are wasting coding time trying to hurt us by obfuscating stats. For some I believe this is just a smokescreen for their coding time spent on block stealing algorithms.
You guys are the only ones even trying to keep them honest by predicted/figuring out which pool found which block. If that problem can be solved, then the pool op block stealing will stop.
I don't see how. When they do steal blocks they submit them under their private wallet, not through their pool.You guys are the only ones even trying to keep them honest by predicted/figuring out which pool found which block. If that problem can be solved, then the pool op block stealing will stop.
Edit: we really should get back to topic though, there are so many ways how pool operators can steal from their users that I don't even want to get into detail... The ONLY way to prevent this is to have "social" mining software that announces found blocks + the pool you mined them in on IRC or similar, and maximum transparency from pools including access to all getwork solutions (so you couls check that your solutions get added to your account only).
What's really frustrating is how much hate is directed against such a small slice of the mining pie. Only about 300 Gigahash is hoppers out of 13 terahash total mining. It's less than 3% of the miners! And all these pool ops are wasting coding time trying to hurt us by obfuscating stats. For some I believe this is just a smokescreen for their coding time spent on block stealing algorithms.
You guys are the only ones even trying to keep them honest by predicted/figuring out which pool found which block. If that problem can be solved, then the pool op block stealing will stop.
I don't see how. When they do steal blocks they submit them under their private wallet, not through their pool.You guys are the only ones even trying to keep them honest by predicted/figuring out which pool found which block. If that problem can be solved, then the pool op block stealing will stop.
What's really frustrating is how much hate is directed against such a small slice of the mining pie. Only about 300 Gigahash is hoppers out of 13 terahash total mining. It's less than 3% of the miners! And all these pool ops are wasting coding time trying to hurt us by obfuscating stats. For some I believe this is just a smokescreen for their coding time spent on block stealing algorithms.
You guys are the only ones even trying to keep them honest by predicted/figuring out which pool found which block. If that problem can be solved, then the pool op block stealing will stop.
I don't see how. When they do steal blocks they submit them under their private wallet, not through their pool. You guys are the only ones even trying to keep them honest by predicted/figuring out which pool found which block. If that problem can be solved, then the pool op block stealing will stop.
What's really frustrating is how much hate is directed against such a small slice of the mining pie. Only about 300 Gigahash is hoppers out of 13 terahash total mining. It's less than 3% of the miners! And all these pool ops are wasting coding time trying to hurt us by obfuscating stats. For some I believe this is just a smokescreen for their coding time spent on block stealing algorithms.
You guys are the only ones even trying to keep them honest by predicted/figuring out which pool found which block. If that problem can be solved, then the pool op block stealing will stop.
You guys are the only ones even trying to keep them honest by predicted/figuring out which pool found which block. If that problem can be solved, then the pool op block stealing will stop.
Some bug-reports
Update: I'd advice against running the setup below as it breaks down miserably after a while, ending up consuming LOTS of bandwidth(about 1000x the normal)
version: v0.2.1-63 (066ee5e23c2af1626a5821e8f8c0945854f8919f)
command line: --scheduler=AltSliceScheduler --altslicesize=180 --p2pLP --debug
Update: I'd advice against running the setup below as it breaks down miserably after a while, ending up consuming LOTS of bandwidth(about 1000x the normal)
version: v0.2.1-63 (066ee5e23c2af1626a5821e8f8c0945854f8919f)
command line: --scheduler=AltSliceScheduler --altslicesize=180 --p2pLP --debug
Code: (Every pool)
2011-08-21 12:56:50+0200 [HTTP11ClientProtocol,client] btcworld: 2468890
2011-08-21 12:56:50+0200 [HTTP11ClientProtocol,client] Error in pool api for btcworld
2011-08-21 12:56:50+0200 [HTTP11ClientProtocol,client] "[Failure instance: Traceback:: local variable 'server_shares' referenced before assignment\n/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/twisted/internet/defer.py:949:gotResult\n/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/twisted/internet/defer.py:936:_inlineCallbacks\n/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/twisted/internet/defer.py:318:callback\n/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/twisted/internet/defer.py:424:_startRunCallbacks\n--- ---\n/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/twisted/internet/defer.py:441:_runCallbacks\n/home/bithopper/bin/bitHopper/bitHopper_v0.2.1-63/pool.py:331:selectsharesResponse\n/home/bithopper/bin/bitHopper/bitHopper_v0.2.1-63/bitHopper.py:137:server_update\n/home/bithopper/bin/bitHopper/bitHopper_v0.2.1-63/scheduler.py:612:server_update\n/home/bithopper/bin/bitHopper/bitHopper_v0.2.1-63/bitHopper.py:116:select_best_server\n/home/bithopper/bin/bitHopper/bitHopper_v0.2.1-63/scheduler.py:411:select_best_server\n]"
Code: (Not sure which pool the json decoding error comes from)
2011-08-21 12:56:50+0200 [HTTP11ClientProtocol,client] btcserv: 1340313
2011-08-21 12:56:50+0200 [HTTP11ClientProtocol,client] Error in pool api for btcserv
2011-08-21 12:56:50+0200 [HTTP11ClientProtocol,client] "[Failure instance: Traceback:: local variable 'server_shares' referenced before assignment\n/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/twisted/internet/defer.py:949:gotResult\n/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/twisted/internet/defer.py:936:_inlineCallbacks\n/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/twisted/internet/defer.py:318:callback\n/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/twisted/internet/defer.py:424:_startRunCallbacks\n--- ---\n/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/twisted/internet/defer.py:441:_runCallbacks\n/home/bithopper/bin/bitHopper/bitHopper_v0.2.1-63/pool.py:331:selectsharesResponse\n/home/bithopper/bin/bitHopper/bitHopper_v0.2.1-63/bitHopper.py:137:server_update\n/home/bithopper/bin/bitHopper/bitHopper_v0.2.1-63/scheduler.py:612:server_update\n/home/bithopper/bin/bitHopper/bitHopper_v0.2.1-63/bitHopper.py:116:select_best_server\n/home/bithopper/bin/bitHopper/bitHopper_v0.2.1-63/scheduler.py:411:select_best_server\n]"
2011-08-21 12:56:50+0200 [HTTP11ClientProtocol,client] 'Error in json decoding, Server probably down'
2011-08-21 12:56:50+0200 [HTTP11ClientProtocol,client] 'triple'
2011-08-21 12:56:50+0200 [HTTP11ClientProtocol,client] ''
2011-08-21 12:56:50+0200 [HTTP11ClientProtocol,client] triple: 6201449
2011-08-21 12:56:50+0200 [HTTP11ClientProtocol,client] Error in pool api for triple
2011-08-21 12:56:50+0200 [HTTP11ClientProtocol,client] "[Failure instance: Traceback:: local variable 'server_shares' referenced before assignment\n/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/twisted/internet/defer.py:949:gotResult\n/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/twisted/internet/defer.py:936:_inlineCallbacks\n/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/twisted/internet/defer.py:318:callback\n/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/twisted/internet/defer.py:424:_startRunCallbacks\n--- ---\n/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/twisted/internet/defer.py:441:_runCallbacks\n/home/bithopper/bin/bitHopper/bitHopper_v0.2.1-63/pool.py:331:selectsharesResponse\n/home/bithopper/bin/bitHopper/bitHopper_v0.2.1-63/bitHopper.py:137:server_update\n/home/bithopper/bin/bitHopper/bitHopper_v0.2.1-63/scheduler.py:612:server_update\n/home/bithopper/bin/bitHopper/bitHopper_v0.2.1-63/bitHopper.py:116:select_best_server\n/home/bithopper/bin/bitHopper/bitHopper_v0.2.1-63/scheduler.py:411:select_best_server\n]"
Code: (only bcpool)
2011-08-21 12:58:55+0200 [HTTP11ClientProtocol,client] 'received lp from: bcpool'
2011-08-21 12:58:55+0200 [HTTP11ClientProtocol,client] 'Error in LP bcpool'
2011-08-21 12:58:55+0200 [HTTP11ClientProtocol,client] Unhandled Error
Traceback (most recent call last):
Failure: exceptions.ValueError: No JSON object could be decoded
2011-08-21 12:58:55+0200 [-] 'LP Call http://bitcoinpool.com:8334/listenChannel'
The web-interface has the role: split up in two: status(Disabled | Info | Mine) and role(like the user.cfg).
But in the user.cfg one can only take one option.
This can be somewhat troublesome if one doesn't want to have a pool start mining per default(set to info/disable in the user.cfg) and that pool requires a non ^role: mine$ role, such as ^role: mine_nmc$.
If one has that pool in either info or disable in the user.cfg one has to remember to change to the correct role manually when enabling it via the web-interface, as it default to ^role: mine$.
A suggestion, which would require a bunch of new lines of code to be added, would be to break up the role: in the user.cfg into two, such as
preset:(mine_nmc, mine_ixc, mine_i0c, mine_deepbit, mine_slush, backup, backup_latehop, mine_charity)
action:(mine, info, disable)
But in the user.cfg one can only take one option.
This can be somewhat troublesome if one doesn't want to have a pool start mining per default(set to info/disable in the user.cfg) and that pool requires a non ^role: mine$ role, such as ^role: mine_nmc$.
If one has that pool in either info or disable in the user.cfg one has to remember to change to the correct role manually when enabling it via the web-interface, as it default to ^role: mine$.
A suggestion, which would require a bunch of new lines of code to be added, would be to break up the role: in the user.cfg into two, such as
preset:(mine_nmc, mine_ixc, mine_i0c, mine_deepbit, mine_slush, backup, backup_latehop, mine_charity)
action:(mine, info, disable)
I apologise then deepceleron. I find your posts thought provoking and helpful for hoppers. I assume you didn't mean them to be?
If you did, then helping people to perform 'immoral' acts - well, that would be immoral, wouldn't it? And your post was all about that. Or maybe you just wanted to show us how clever you are.
Either way - keep up the helpful posts, but please keep your value judgment posts to the "Is hopping ethical?" thread.
If you did, then helping people to perform 'immoral' acts - well, that would be immoral, wouldn't it? And your post was all about that. Or maybe you just wanted to show us how clever you are.
Either way - keep up the helpful posts, but please keep your value judgment posts to the "Is hopping ethical?" thread.
You know what I like best about your post, deepceleron? It's you telling us you have no misconceptions about what and how evil hopping is and yet you, a hopper, are making a judgement about someone else's morals? Either you're amoral and shouldn't be making these sort of calls, or you've stopped hopping and are bitter.
I am a pool hopper? Find one post where I've said that. Studying lockpicking doesn't make me a thief; studying American history doesn't make me want to own slaves. Bithopper software reveals itself as rather clever and canonical, having other uses, such as the potential to find "who solves the block" from LPs, make an IRC block solve annouce bot, or to spread shares across several pools for backup/failover/variance reduction, etc. I'd post a screen shot with all my pools set to info and backup, but my python install got messed up earlier this week and I haven't bothered fixing it.
However, pool hopping on those pools that have decided it is OK, to the detriment of their other users, would just be defending yourself against others who thought it was cool to bring a gun to a knife fight.
By the way, why would someone be "bitter" if they decided to stop pool hopping? hrm.
If pools care so much about their miners, then why they don't implement a fair reward system like PPLNS or PPS ? PROP is not a fair system.
I think the reasons are 1. That would take some effort, 2. Math fail (such as the below-mentioned pool op not believing that pool hoppers reduce earnings, and me being unable to communicate with him in the language of integral calculus and binomial statistics, since he's working at a hosting company at the age I was studying engineering), 3. User resistance (typical PPLNS conversion discussion: "I don't like the idea of my shares expiring..."), and 4. Greed - hopping doesn't reduce the earnings of pool ops, just the users, and more block solves = more fees they get to keep....
And hoppers degarding network stability or earnings of bitcoin as a whole? How? Even if someone cracked SH256 and was able to generate hashes with 100x speed than other it would not destabilize the system. Bitcoin doesn't care about the pools or hoppers. The only thing which matters is that a block should happen every 10 minutes. Who gets the block, doesn't really matter.
And hoppers degarding network stability or earnings of bitcoin as a whole? How? Even if someone cracked SH256 and was able to generate hashes with 100x speed than other it would not destabilize the system. Bitcoin doesn't care about the pools or hoppers. The only thing which matters is that a block should happen every 10 minutes. Who gets the block, doesn't really matter.
I am referring to the instability and extra work that hoppers create for pool operators and their users. I happen to know several network problems at bitcoins.lc were from pool hoppers, specifically from hundreds of connections a second being opened by the multipool op and other unknown actors, essentially DDOSing the pool. Jine had to implement firewall caching because of the load the constant stat-refreshing was causing, and had to switch over to to a VM environment with load distribution between six different servers, because proxied and aggregated connections were not re-using TCP sessions properly and would run pushpoold out of TCP/IP ports and crash the pool for all the users. That I might be bitter about, along with having to switch my higher aggression mining tasks to a PPLNS pool instead of my first choice, to avoid earning measurably less.
I do somewhat agree that the game is flawed if you have to kick out the card counters. However, you aren't taking from the house, you are taking from other miners in a situation where the ideal would be that we pool our resources for the good of all. My response is to the self-justifying posts every few pages of this thread that "pools should be glad, we help them solve blocks", or "xxx pool is unscrupulous a-holes because they are taking measures against pool hopping".
......
It is game on, pools that still prefer the proportional payment method should do whatever in their power makes their pool mining experience a positive one, including not having egocentrists degrade a fair rewards system and network stability.
It is game on, pools that still prefer the proportional payment method should do whatever in their power makes their pool mining experience a positive one, including not having egocentrists degrade a fair rewards system and network stability.
You know what I like best about your post, deepceleron? It's you telling us you have no misconceptions about what and how evil hopping is and yet you, a hopper, are making a judgement about someone else's morals? Either you're amoral and shouldn't be making these sort of calls, or you've stopped hopping and are bitter.
@tysat: same problem with btcg, although I did get into one round once. Deepbit's ok. Try not using p2pLP and see if it helps. Also make sure you're using a recent version.
So I've had some weird issues with BH and trying the LP/p2pLP. When I first start BH up, it works for for a while (1-5 hours). But eventually it seems to stop using LP or the p2pLP, and therefor isn't hopping to deepbit at all. Also, it seems like it never ever hops to BTCGuild as whenever it is restarted btcg just keeps rising and never resets to 0.
Anyone else had similar and been able to fix it?
Anyone else had similar and been able to fix it?
.
Quote
You seem to be the best at these self-denial diatribes, perhaps arguing with yourself to justify your unethical behaviour in pool hopping.
and you seem good at twisting shit just to fit your preconceptions.
the rules say i get paid my shares/total shares x 50
I leave when that equation no longer makes sense to mine there. Just like you get paid The number of coins you can mine in a month x the price you can sell them on mtgox - electricity costs, when that equation goes negative, most people quit.
get it? it has nothing to do with anyone but me. I'm not stealing any bread or any damn pennies and everyone else is still paid for every share they send in divided by total shares times 50.
I am looking at my shares versus pool shares times 50.. i dont want to be there when pool shares are over 2 million, i want to be elsewhere, that is just smart, it isnt theft. If they feel they get less than they should, move to a pool with a "fair" system. Sorry if following the rules seems unethical to you.
when it is in the rules.. dont hop.. you can call me unethical, otherwise I am being smart.
You're just pissed cause i starve myself before going to an all you can eat buffet, you are paying more per ounce than I am and you are pissed, I dont get it, want to pay less per ounce like me, skip fucking lunch.
here the equation is how much you can eat/cost of buffet. It doesnt make sense to me to eat there right after I just ate, i'm full the cost is high, how much i can eat is low...decision.. dont eat there.
can I not hop the bars based on their happy hours? no rule says i have to stay for full price drinks, but according to you I am being unethical. YOU DO KNOW YOU ARE SUBSIDIZING MY BEHAVIOR when i do that right?
seriously that is one twisted brain you got. If you dont like what your getting paid, go somewhere else. Or do what we do.
and FYI.. many pool ops like us, so for the pool ops that have told us to stay.. how can you call us unethical when we have been invited?
blah, blah, snipped
and network stability.
network stability is already fucked by deepbit having 50% of total hashpower and "legitimate" miners don't give a jackshit about that
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