any news from Bitmain/Hashnest?
they put 2000 "New" S5 for 420 US dollar to sell at the shop.
Topic: Bitmain Antminer S6 and S7 Speculation - page 8. (Read 33492 times)
Phil - I don't know enough about BitFury's current line to know if I want to bother working with it at all. I mean, SFARDS claims 0.19W/GH SHA performance and I know I don't want to play with theirs. If BitFury sticks to ~10W non-BGA chips instead of ~100W chips, sure that'd be awesome. From what I understand, KNC tends to like big fat stupid chips so unless someone else contracted the dev I probably wouldn't mess with 'em.
Spondoolies new chip, last I heard anything, was on the same size/power scale as the Rockerbox. I guess lines at the foundry are backing up because they're overdue for release but still in business. That's good. As much as I may like to rag on their product line as being overly complex and expensive, the economy does need a diverse set of manufacturers and they're one of the good (which is to say, not evil) ones.
Spondoolies new chip, last I heard anything, was on the same size/power scale as the Rockerbox. I guess lines at the foundry are backing up because they're overdue for release but still in business. That's good. As much as I may like to rag on their product line as being overly complex and expensive, the economy does need a diverse set of manufacturers and they're one of the good (which is to say, not evil) ones.
Kinda like when BitFury talked big game about their 0.19W/GH chip in exactly one press release and never talked about it again?
Maybe a bit more like HashFast and Cointerra .. or even that ASIC|rising bunch. But at least Spondoolies somewhat lives on and BitFury's expanding, so they have the lack of bankruptcy and skepticism of existence going for them 
My KNC confusion is pretty simple if they built this chip and it 2 or 3x better then any chip ever built why don't they really show proof of it.
They could get a shit ton of investment money and then rob them too.
So far I have not seen clear evidence of a .1 watt mining machine mining as of today.
They could get a shit ton of investment money and then rob them too.
So far I have not seen clear evidence of a .1 watt mining machine mining as of today.
If they had the chip, they wouldn't be losing market share of the network hashrate distribution. KNC is in a lot of trouble. Those leaked financials from December 2014, at a higher BTC price, showed them bleeding value at a rate of 5% of their total book value ($4.6 million) every 6 weeks. That's an "bankruptcy on the horizon" rate. Hence why they needed $15 million of equity in January, but have nothing to show for it. They'll have to raise more cash again soon, even with a new chip. Production will cost tens of millions, and the factories in China will require at least partial payment up front.
While mining in Sweden sounded smart in 2013, the electricity rate is higher there than Iceland, Georgia, and the better rates of North America and China. Plus, their farm supposedly cost $20+ million to house less than 10 MW. I bet the Chinese spend far less than that to house 10MW. Throw in the cost of low pay scale employees, which in Sweden is $80K+ USD, 12 weeks vacation and benefits, the high tax rate in Sweden (25% VAT plus high income rates) and I would bet they're going to have to shutter that operation before the end of 2015. Throw in millions of liability in law suits. KNC may produce a chip, but the company is either going to have to sell it for nothing to a creditor/investor or sell the whole company. They simply do not have the funds on hand to manufacture a final product.
If they sold off the "0.1 watt chip" Would be nice to get a lot of them.
@sidehack how about 1000 or so 0.1 watt chips to build something with.
We can only dream.
My KNC confusion is pretty simple if they built this chip and it 2 or 3x better then any chip ever built why don't they really show proof of it.
They could get a shit ton of investment money and then rob them too.
So far I have not seen clear evidence of a .1 watt mining machine mining as of today.
They could get a shit ton of investment money and then rob them too.
So far I have not seen clear evidence of a .1 watt mining machine mining as of today.
If they had the chip, they wouldn't be losing market share of the network hashrate distribution. KNC is in a lot of trouble. Those leaked financials from December 2014, at a higher BTC price, showed them bleeding value at a rate of 5% of their total book value ($4.6 million) every 6 weeks. That's an "bankruptcy on the horizon" rate. Hence why they needed $15 million of equity in January, but have nothing to show for it. They'll have to raise more cash again soon, even with a new chip. Production will cost tens of millions, and the factories in China will require at least partial payment up front.
While mining in Sweden sounded smart in 2013, the electricity rate is higher there than Iceland, Georgia, and the better rates of North America and China. Plus, their farm supposedly cost $20+ million to house less than 10 MW. I bet the Chinese spend far less than that to house 10MW. Throw in the cost of low pay scale employees, which in Sweden is $80K+ USD, 12 weeks vacation and benefits, the high tax rate in Sweden (25% VAT plus high income rates) and I would bet they're going to have to shutter that operation before the end of 2015. Throw in millions of liability in law suits. KNC may produce a chip, but the company is either going to have to sell it for nothing to a creditor/investor or sell the whole company. They simply do not have the funds on hand to manufacture a final product.
Kinda like when BitFury talked big game about their 0.19W/GH chip in exactly one press release and never talked about it again?
they don't have it!!!!
there is no .1w machine!
there is no .1w machine!
So far I have not seen clear evidence of a .1 watt mining machine mining as of today.
Remember when Spondoolies-Tech was planning one?
My KNC confusion is pretty simple if they built this chip and it 2 or 3x better then any chip ever built why don't they really show proof of it.
They could get a shit ton of investment money and then rob them too.
So far I have not seen clear evidence of a .1 watt mining machine mining as of today.
They could get a shit ton of investment money and then rob them too.
So far I have not seen clear evidence of a .1 watt mining machine mining as of today.
Just as soon as they figure out another surefire way to steal money from everyone and still convince important people that they're a respected business. I'm still confused how investors trusted them enough to pay for 16nm dev after they spent the whole last year ripping people off with nonexistent and/or poorly-made products.
When does KnC plan to introduce this 16nm chip?
Your guess is as good as any. They announced various stages of it in the past.2014-11-18 - 16nm plan announcement - http://www.kncminer.com/blog/newsarchive#announcing-solar-a-step-change-in-processing-capability
2015-02-03 - tapeout complete - http://www.kncminer.com/blog/newsarchive#accel-investing-in-kncminer-16nm-tape-out-completed
2015-06-03 - deployed - http://www.kncminer.com/blog/newsarchive#changing-the-game-again
2015-07-05 - must be so efficient they can stand to bleed relative hash rate - https://i.imgur.com/HMvyTPa.png
Great points sidehack. The BE300 did indeed beat the BM1384 and show that there's still plenty of wiggle room with the 28nm tech to get some nice efficiency gains. Do I think Bitmain's going to throw all of their cards on the table with this next S6/S7 generation and offer up the best they can get from their chips? Honestly, no. Even though they could very easily put out an S7 running 1.8TH/s at under 600W, I just don't see the incentive for them to do so. This will likely be a "hey it's good enough" generation while they transition to a smaller process node to compete with KnC's 16nm tech (which promises some absurdly low power draw).
When does KnC plan to introduce this 16nm chip?
Great points sidehack. The BE300 did indeed beat the BM1384 and show that there's still plenty of wiggle room with the 28nm tech to get some nice efficiency gains. Do I think Bitmain's going to throw all of their cards on the table with this next S6/S7 generation and offer up the best they can get from their chips? Honestly, no. Even though they could very easily put out an S7 running 1.8TH/s at under 600W, I just don't see the incentive for them to do so. This will likely be a "hey it's good enough" generation while they transition to a smaller process node to compete with KnC's 16nm tech (which promises some absurdly low power draw).
If they could justify the chip cost, Bitmain could have put out a 500W 1.4TH miner on the S[odd] chassis six months ago; it just would have had 51 chips per blade instead of 30. That's a practical maximum for chip density on a board that size, and gets there with the same 3x17 string they're using in the S4+ (which, by the by, if it was made with BM1384 the same PSU could source six modules instead of four and we'd have a 4.2TH miner drawing 1600W wall, which would have been one heck of a nice S6). Given the S5 could do 1.2TH off 600W for about half the investment and was still the best thing anyone could buy, there was no need. To get a significant and also cost-effective improvement would require a new chip, so I don't begrudge them the design at all. Even a 2x16 string, a practical stock clock would have been 100GH less (about 1050GH, albeit at under 500W wall) but that kind of efficiency wasn't really necessary. The only real competition at the time was the SP20, and they already had it beat on price by a long way.
ASICMiner's BE300 proved there's still a lot of room left in 28nm, as its specs were about 25% better than BM1384 across the board (0.19 vs 0.25 bottom clock, 0.35 vs 0.45 top clock). I'd expect to see at least a 30% efficiency gain from Bitmain's S7 chip. The BM1380 top clock was something like 6W per chip, BM1384 about 10. I'm going to assume the new chip will have a similar top clock power dissipation of 10W, with a 30% better efficiency than the BM1384. I think a slightly higher chip density than 60 is likely, as the core voltage will probably be reduced - say, 750mV stock vs 800mV stock gives a 16-chip string instead of 15 for 64 chips per machine instead of 60. If that's the case, and we're running at about 85% practical maximum clock (fairly typical neighborhood given S1/S3/S5 stock setpoints), we'll see probably 8W per chip for 530W DC consumption (including fan and controller, still under 600W at the wall) and approximately 1800GH.
As much as it would be super nice, I kinda doubt Bitmain will put up the extra $10 for quieter fans. They tested it out a bit with the S3, full shroud and dual fans for super durability and silent running, but the S5 they really didn't care - single super-loud fan, cheap plastic side panels, designed more for bulk shelving customers than regular folks. As long as 90% of their sales go to people that aren't concerned with how loud the fans are (admittedly, I'm among them though I'm by no means a bulk buyer - I just don't care about fan noise until it approaches SP10 annoyance/pain levels), Bitmain's not going to do jack to make miners quieter if it means adding expense.
That's my guesses anyways.
ASICMiner's BE300 proved there's still a lot of room left in 28nm, as its specs were about 25% better than BM1384 across the board (0.19 vs 0.25 bottom clock, 0.35 vs 0.45 top clock). I'd expect to see at least a 30% efficiency gain from Bitmain's S7 chip. The BM1380 top clock was something like 6W per chip, BM1384 about 10. I'm going to assume the new chip will have a similar top clock power dissipation of 10W, with a 30% better efficiency than the BM1384. I think a slightly higher chip density than 60 is likely, as the core voltage will probably be reduced - say, 750mV stock vs 800mV stock gives a 16-chip string instead of 15 for 64 chips per machine instead of 60. If that's the case, and we're running at about 85% practical maximum clock (fairly typical neighborhood given S1/S3/S5 stock setpoints), we'll see probably 8W per chip for 530W DC consumption (including fan and controller, still under 600W at the wall) and approximately 1800GH.
As much as it would be super nice, I kinda doubt Bitmain will put up the extra $10 for quieter fans. They tested it out a bit with the S3, full shroud and dual fans for super durability and silent running, but the S5 they really didn't care - single super-loud fan, cheap plastic side panels, designed more for bulk shelving customers than regular folks. As long as 90% of their sales go to people that aren't concerned with how loud the fans are (admittedly, I'm among them though I'm by no means a bulk buyer - I just don't care about fan noise until it approaches SP10 annoyance/pain levels), Bitmain's not going to do jack to make miners quieter if it means adding expense.
That's my guesses anyways.
selling the s-7 rather then mining with it is not really a good idea.
the new pattern for asic builders is replace your older gear slowly with the newer gear. all the while slowly selling the older gear at the highest price the market will allow.
Both avalon and bitmaintech slowly sell the avalon 4.1 at high price and the s-5 at high price while mining it,
they then replace the 4.1 or the s-5 with more efficient gear. they have no need to rush.
the new avalon mini does .4 watts vs .53 watts. the new s-7 does > watts vs .52 watts.
the trick is to allow over-clocked gear die in the field see my sp20 stat thread.
what does all of this do. it lowers the builders risk it ends the gear-up wars and allows for safer profit for the building-self mining company.
SO when the s-7 comes out look for a .35 to .4 watt item priced to break even in about 180-210 days if your power cost is 8 cents.
You and I are on pretty much exactly the same page regarding the S7's performance, Phil. Earlier in the thread I stated that the S7 should likely get around 1.5TH/s for the same 590W the S5 demands. Your numbers put the range between 1.475TH/s and 1.685TH/s. Hopefully they will make the thing a bit quieter. My S3s are virtually silent compared to the noise the SP20 and S5 make.the new pattern for asic builders is replace your older gear slowly with the newer gear. all the while slowly selling the older gear at the highest price the market will allow.
Both avalon and bitmaintech slowly sell the avalon 4.1 at high price and the s-5 at high price while mining it,
they then replace the 4.1 or the s-5 with more efficient gear. they have no need to rush.
the new avalon mini does .4 watts vs .53 watts. the new s-7 does > watts vs .52 watts.
the trick is to allow over-clocked gear die in the field see my sp20 stat thread.
what does all of this do. it lowers the builders risk it ends the gear-up wars and allows for safer profit for the building-self mining company.
SO when the s-7 comes out look for a .35 to .4 watt item priced to break even in about 180-210 days if your power cost is 8 cents.
Yeah the noise was one of my wishes for the upcoming batch, hopefully they go the Avalon 4.1 route
selling the s-7 rather then mining with it is not really a good idea.
the new pattern for asic builders is replace your older gear slowly with the newer gear. all the while slowly selling the older gear at the highest price the market will allow.
Both avalon and bitmaintech slowly sell the avalon 4.1 at high price and the s-5 at high price while mining it,
they then replace the 4.1 or the s-5 with more efficient gear. they have no need to rush.
the new avalon mini does .4 watts vs .53 watts. the new s-7 does > watts vs .52 watts.
the trick is to allow over-clocked gear die in the field see my sp20 stat thread.
what does all of this do. it lowers the builders risk it ends the gear-up wars and allows for safer profit for the building-self mining company.
SO when the s-7 comes out look for a .35 to .4 watt item priced to break even in about 180-210 days if your power cost is 8 cents.
You and I are on pretty much exactly the same page regarding the S7's performance, Phil. Earlier in the thread I stated that the S7 should likely get around 1.5TH/s for the same 590W the S5 demands. Your numbers put the range between 1.475TH/s and 1.685TH/s. Hopefully they will make the thing a bit quieter. My S3s are virtually silent compared to the noise the SP20 and S5 make. the new pattern for asic builders is replace your older gear slowly with the newer gear. all the while slowly selling the older gear at the highest price the market will allow.
Both avalon and bitmaintech slowly sell the avalon 4.1 at high price and the s-5 at high price while mining it,
they then replace the 4.1 or the s-5 with more efficient gear. they have no need to rush.
the new avalon mini does .4 watts vs .53 watts. the new s-7 does > watts vs .52 watts.
the trick is to allow over-clocked gear die in the field see my sp20 stat thread.
what does all of this do. it lowers the builders risk it ends the gear-up wars and allows for safer profit for the building-self mining company.
SO when the s-7 comes out look for a .35 to .4 watt item priced to break even in about 180-210 days if your power cost is 8 cents.
selling the s-7 rather then mining with it is not really a good idea.
the new pattern for asic builders is replace your older gear slowly with the newer gear. all the while slowly selling the older gear at the highest price the market will allow.
Both avalon and bitmaintech slowly sell the avalon 4.1 at high price and the s-5 at high price while mining it,
they then replace the 4.1 or the s-5 with more efficient gear. they have no need to rush.
the new avalon mini does .4 watts vs .53 watts. the new s-7 does > watts vs .52 watts.
the trick is to allow over-clocked gear die in the field see my sp20 stat thread.
what does all of this do. it lowers the builders risk it ends the gear-up wars and allows for safer profit for the building-self mining company.
SO when the s-7 comes out look for a .35 to .4 watt item priced to break even in about 180-210 days if your power cost is 8 cents.
the new pattern for asic builders is replace your older gear slowly with the newer gear. all the while slowly selling the older gear at the highest price the market will allow.
Both avalon and bitmaintech slowly sell the avalon 4.1 at high price and the s-5 at high price while mining it,
they then replace the 4.1 or the s-5 with more efficient gear. they have no need to rush.
the new avalon mini does .4 watts vs .53 watts. the new s-7 does > watts vs .52 watts.
the trick is to allow over-clocked gear die in the field see my sp20 stat thread.
what does all of this do. it lowers the builders risk it ends the gear-up wars and allows for safer profit for the building-self mining company.
SO when the s-7 comes out look for a .35 to .4 watt item priced to break even in about 180-210 days if your power cost is 8 cents.
While it would be nice to actually hear something concrete on the S7 from Bitmain, I wonder what will actually motivate them to start selling it to the public? Do they need the cash? Could they do just as well by replacing some set of their in-house S5 gear and continue to sell S5's? I think every one has accepted "new" means it has a warranty, not that it actually means "unused".
Is there actually any competitive threat to them at this time?
Is there actually any competitive threat to them at this time?
if the old trick of preorder to have money upfront isn't working anymore, and their revenue would be greater in selling those new miners, they will go for that way
remember that efficiency is not that great on those new miners, they are still working with 28nm(at least the last rumors said so...), so i doubt there is much to gain if all the s5 were to be replaced with s6-s7
Is there actually any competitive threat to them at this time?
Isn't BitFury deploying / about to deploy their new chips? From a consumer sales standpoint, no, Bitmain doesn't have any serious competitive threats.
While it would be nice to actually hear something concrete on the S7 from Bitmain, I wonder what will actually motivate them to start selling it to the public? Do they need the cash? Could they do just as well by replacing some set of their in-house S5 gear and continue to sell S5's? I think every one has accepted "new" means it has a warranty, not that it actually means "unused".
Is there actually any competitive threat to them at this time?
Is there actually any competitive threat to them at this time?
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