Bitmain Antminer S6 and S7 Speculation - page 3.

QuintLeo

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Quote from: sidehack on August 19, 2015, 06:37:29 PM

Don't forget the controller and fan power, which could easily be another 25W (becoming 28 more at the wall).

Note that the specs they published on the BM1385 were the "at the wall" spec numbers, NOT the chip numbers, for power.

I'm STILL saying they already have S7's built and hashing away in their farm/Hashnest.

I suspect the CHIP can go down to more like .12 at "optimal efficiency" undervolt.

The only "waste" to them on actually putting the S7 up for sale right now would be if they still have any of those S5+ things or any S5's left in their hands unsold. I'm CERTAIN that's the only thing they are waiting on, though if someone else releases a miner that might preempt them.

VirosaGITS

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Quote from: sidehack on August 19, 2015, 06:37:29 PM

Don't forget the controller and fan power, which could easily be another 25W (becoming 28 more at the wall).

The S5 is inefficient for the chip, because it's running at the top of what's possible for it. The S[odd] miners always did that, and the S[even] miners came later with higher chip density and lower per-unit power. Inefficient or not, the S5 was the most efficient machine available at the time, and nobody's really beaten it in a cost-effective way in the last 8 months. Sucks to say, but that was a pretty optimal design when you consider $/GH and that efficiency was already "good enough".

I'm betting they announced the chip as a preemptive strike on Spondoolies or LK Group announcing new gear (speculative, of course). Quite possibly they're only toying with factory samples now, which is why they aren't announcing an S7 design or any performance curves beyond the one data point. Or they're only letting slip a little bit of info and they've actually had them for months and just aren't telling everyone about their already-deployed S7 stacks because they don't want to yet.

That's true, it is still a good unit and will still be for a while. However the S1 was easy to undervolt. And quiet.(Still ROI able to me at 1J/GH) +Wifi
The S3 downclock well and is quiet. +Wifi (but no proper external connector iirc)
The S5 was meant to be super underclockable as well (remember the 0.2J/GH portion of their first information out?), but then suddenly it seem like it had to be rushed and sold cheap. As if they just wanted to kill off the competition. Only the latest PCB seem to handle undervolting. But i guess i'm speculating quite a bit in what could have beens.

And Yep, releasing those right this moment is still a waste for them. But the right time may come to be soon. They are possibly just keeping it as ammo to kill off the competition as soon as they come out.

sidehack

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Don't forget the controller and fan power, which could easily be another 25W (becoming 28 more at the wall).

The S5 is inefficient for the chip, because it's running at the top of what's possible for it. The S[odd] miners always did that, and the S[even] miners came later with higher chip density and lower per-unit power. Inefficient or not, the S5 was the most efficient machine available at the time, and nobody's really beaten it in a cost-effective way in the last 8 months. Sucks to say, but that was a pretty optimal design when you consider $/GH and that efficiency was already "good enough".

I'm betting they announced the chip as a preemptive strike on Spondoolies or LK Group announcing new gear (speculative, of course). Quite possibly they're only toying with factory samples now, which is why they aren't announcing an S7 design or any performance curves beyond the one data point. Or they're only letting slip a little bit of info and they've actually had them for months and just aren't telling everyone about their already-deployed S7 stacks because they don't want to yet.

VirosaGITS

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Quote from: QuintLeo on August 19, 2015, 06:14:15 PM

Quote from: jonnybravo0311 on August 19, 2015, 09:09:21 AM

Well... the BM1385 certainly beat our predictions in this thread... it's slated to be 0.23W per GH (or 230W per TH). Now we just have to wait and see what the actual units will look like. If they're still drawing the same 590W like the S5, that's about 2.5TH/s.

18 chips per string, that's a given from the BM1385 published specs and Bitmain's long-standing tendancy to run their new designs at "max hash/max volts".

That works out to 2.34 TH at about 540 watts "at the wall", on a 2 board 2 string per board "same as S5/S3/S1" form factor unit.
I suspect the actual final announced specs will be a HAIR off from that estimate, more on the power side than the TH side.

I would guess the unit will initially be priced at 3.5-4 BTC, but that's a LOT more speculative and I wouldn't be shocked at anything up to 5.

Release date? Whenever Bitmain finishes replacing their "farm" S5s, or when a competator shows up with working hardware or at least announces working production of chips (other than SFards, whish is starting to make me think "Sfarts" of late) of those competators that sell to the public.

Indeed, unless they need to kill off competition (again) they don't need to release this yet. This would just undermine their... mine.

QuintLeo

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Quote from: jonnybravo0311 on August 19, 2015, 09:09:21 AM

Well... the BM1385 certainly beat our predictions in this thread... it's slated to be 0.23W per GH (or 230W per TH). Now we just have to wait and see what the actual units will look like. If they're still drawing the same 590W like the S5, that's about 2.5TH/s.

18 chips per string, that's a given from the BM1385 published specs and Bitmain's long-standing tendancy to run their new designs at "max hash/max volts".

That works out to 2.34 TH at about 540 watts "at the wall", on a 2 board 2 string per board "same as S5/S3/S1" form factor unit.
I suspect the actual final announced specs will be a HAIR off from that estimate, more on the power side than the TH side.

I would guess the unit will initially be priced at 3.5-4 BTC, but that's a LOT more speculative and I wouldn't be shocked at anything up to 5.

Release date? Whenever Bitmain finishes replacing their "farm" S5s, or when a competator shows up with working hardware or at least announces working production of chips (other than SFards, whish is starting to make me think "Sfarts" of late) of those competators that sell to the public.

VirosaGITS

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Quote from: sidehack on August 19, 2015, 05:52:09 PM

S5, or S5+? The S5+, like the S4+, I have a hard time understanding. Now if instead of designing an S5+ with 7.7TH in a terribly hideous and cumbersome form-factor and very little improvement on technology already eight months old, or an S4+ using more-than-year-old chips in a mediocre and highly-overpriced offering worse than any miner sold this calendar year, they had retooled the S4 build around the BM1384, it might have been something. A 5x17 string instead of 3x17 of BM1382 would have built a 4.2TH miner in the same case, same heatsinks, same PSU. That would have been worth buying. A clumsy behemoth trying to extract 1KW from a box the size of an S1 and with about a 10% power savings over the stuff they were shipping last Christmas, with no good way to power it and no good way to even shelve the thing safely? Yeah, definitely a mess.

I got about a dozen S1 sitting on the shelf waiting, and several stripped-down dead S5 chassis as well.

I meant the S5 design seemed rush and very inefficient compared to what it should be able to produce. For instance see the huge efficiency gain from just undervolting the 1.91v board to 11.5v. Lose nearly no hashrate, save 12% in power. *Roll eyes*
You yourself managed to do much better with that chip.

For the S5+ i don't even want to talk about it anymore. Its more a Frankenstein thats beneficial to Bitmain than anything else. In comparison the S5 is a gem.

sidehack

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S5, or S5+? The S5+, like the S4+, I have a hard time understanding. Now if instead of designing an S5+ with 7.7TH in a terribly hideous and cumbersome form-factor and very little improvement on technology already eight months old, or an S4+ using more-than-year-old chips in a mediocre and highly-overpriced offering worse than any miner sold this calendar year, they had retooled the S4 build around the BM1384, it might have been something. A 5x17 string instead of 3x17 of BM1382 would have built a 4.2TH miner in the same case, same heatsinks, same PSU. That would have been worth buying. A clumsy behemoth trying to extract 1KW from a box the size of an S1 and with about a 10% power savings over the stuff they were shipping last Christmas, with no good way to power it and no good way to even shelve the thing safely? Yeah, definitely a mess.

I got about a dozen S1 sitting on the shelf waiting, and several stripped-down dead S5 chassis as well.

VirosaGITS

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Quote from: sidehack on August 19, 2015, 03:03:21 PM

Good that I know so what? All of that was hopes and opinions.

So nothing. Its good that you agree that the S5 was a rushed mess. That's my opinion on your opinion. In the end, just another opinion.

Quote from: jonnybravo0311 on August 19, 2015, 03:10:22 PM

S1 upgrades? Who still has those ancient things? Tongue

I do, at my electricity cost they still earn me, even after the BTC crash in the last 24 hours. So if the crash kick off some other miners, all the better for me.

sidehack

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(the S3 and S5 use the same chassis so would also be compatible)

jonnybravo0311

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S1 upgrades? Who still has those ancient things? Tongue

sidehack

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Good that I know so what? All of that was hopes and opinions.

I'm hoping between myself and PlanetCrypto we can strike a deal with someone for chips. I would like to have a GekkoScience-branded actual miner (whether a standalone machine or "S1 Upgrade" or both remains to be seen) shipping for Christmas but it's not going to be easy.

I'm looking forward to hearing more info about the BM1385, an actual performance graph and such. That'd be nice.

VirosaGITS

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Quote from: sidehack on August 19, 2015, 12:04:48 PM

I hope they keep the same heatsink size. It's a fairly practical power density and I would not be opposed to seeing the S1 formfactor become somewhat of a standard for small miners. S5+ is a disaster.

Its good that you know so. I would love some PCB to upgrade S1s from you, if you can ever get your hand on enough chips. Even though it could be hard to get them out anytime soon.

sidehack

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I hope they keep the same heatsink size. It's a fairly practical power density and I would not be opposed to seeing the S1 formfactor become somewhat of a standard for small miners. S5+ is a disaster.

jonnybravo0311

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I was a bit generous with the 2.5TH/s, but I just fudged it... you did the actual numbers and came up with a very acceptable value of 2.34TH/s for 590W at the wall. I wonder if they're going to go with the large heatsinks (like the S1/S3/S5) or if they're going to adopt the individual smaller heatsinks like in the S5+...

sidehack

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My guess for an S7, based on BM1385 posted info and a few assumptions (that 0.216W/GH 0.66V 32.5GH are concurrent at an expected stock operating point):

2x18 string per board for 72 chips total
2340GH per machine
About 530W DC expected draw, 590W wall (with 90% PSU)

This puts it at running a bit cooler than the S5, so hopefully also a bit quieter.

jonnybravo0311

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Well... the BM1385 certainly beat our predictions in this thread... it's slated to be 0.23W per GH (or 230W per TH). Now we just have to wait and see what the actual units will look like. If they're still drawing the same 590W like the S5, that's about 2.5TH/s.

philipma1957

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Quote from: VirosaGITS on August 18, 2015, 12:24:56 PM

Ah. Thanks philipma1957 i noticed the 2 unused connector and was wondering if the controller was able to run loaded 4 blades. This is pretty nice, it could be nice to pickup a S5 with defective controller board and double up effectively getting a second S5 for real cheap.

yeah there are threads from JAN 2015 that show it.

also a thread that show s-5's mounted on a 20 inch box fan pointed straight up. they ran for months no issues.

VirosaGITS

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Ah. Thanks philipma1957 i noticed the 2 unused connector and was wondering if the controller was able to run loaded 4 blades. This is pretty nice, it could be nice to pickup a S5 with defective controller board and double up effectively getting a second S5 for real cheap.

philipma1957

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Quote from: VirosaGITS on August 17, 2015, 09:16:18 PM

Quote from: philipma1957 on August 17, 2015, 06:08:06 PM

Quote from: VirosaGITS on August 17, 2015, 04:53:11 PM

Quote from: QuintLeo on August 17, 2015, 04:47:40 PM

Based on Bitmain's past record of reusing design work, I'd bet the S7 will be same form factor and same front/back plates as the S3/S5.
I'd go 80/20 on 2 hash boards vs. 3 like the "S5+".
I'd bet on it being 1KW power consumption or less, but not on HOW much less.
Definitely new chip with better specs - but how much better is a good question, and a high probability they'll run the chip at or very close to it's LEAST efficient point to maximize hash rate NOT efficiency.

Price, actual hash rate, power consumption, and date of first shipment are the big questions right now.
Chip technology doesn't really matter except indirectly in how it affects the hash rate and power consumption.

The S5+ is perfectly practical with 110V - I have no clue why people keep saying it needs 220. You DON'T have to run it from a single power supply after all.
I do still think the S5+ should have been called the S6 though, even if it's not really rack-mount form factor it's CLOSE.

I don't think the S5+ has a direct effect on when the S7 will go on sale - I think the only real holdup on the S7 right now is Bitmain clearing out all of their "used farm/Hashnest" S5 units as they get them replaced by S7 (or perhaps S8 or "S7+) units.

The people complain because it needs 2x 220-240v for optimal efficiency and also because 220v is more efficient, about 2% less waste, which at 90% is a 20% reduction in waste, up to 40%. Etc.

We could see a s7 be at around 0.8kWh for like 2.5TH. We'll see.

the s7 won't come out for months.

There is a good chance s-5++ can be made to run downclocked to 4.75th and use 1800 watts that translates to .375 watts a gh.

I will be ordering an s-5+ this weekend and try to test the findings out from this thread.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/antminer-s5-underclock-undervolt-best-jgh-1151460

if it tests as expected the s-5 generation has a lot of life left to it.

No need for bitmaintech to sell s-7's

They will off load all s-5's and s-5+'s for months to come. and if the mods allowing for lower power use pan out we will not see a s-7 until Jan or feb.

But i find that irritating, the s5+ is a very big chunk. A single unit form S5+ would be nice and affordable by piece. The S5+ right now is big and noisy, a lot of heat. I don't know what kind of noise you could get to with high quality performance low noise fans but that one unit is like my whole farm. =/

the biggest downside is 7.7th is all riding on the controller it goes poof and you lose your hash until a new controller is shipped to you.

S-5's can run 4 blades on one controller. so if you have 2 s-5's you can double up the units until the new controller arrives.

AS for the wires being to short to do that s-5's can run on their sides s-5's can run pointed straight up so the controller can reach all four blades.

It would be nice to be able to buy extra controllers from bitmaintech but as far as I know you can't. ( I could be wrong here)

VirosaGITS

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Quote from: philipma1957 on August 17, 2015, 06:08:06 PM

Quote from: VirosaGITS on August 17, 2015, 04:53:11 PM

Quote from: QuintLeo on August 17, 2015, 04:47:40 PM

Based on Bitmain's past record of reusing design work, I'd bet the S7 will be same form factor and same front/back plates as the S3/S5.
I'd go 80/20 on 2 hash boards vs. 3 like the "S5+".
I'd bet on it being 1KW power consumption or less, but not on HOW much less.
Definitely new chip with better specs - but how much better is a good question, and a high probability they'll run the chip at or very close to it's LEAST efficient point to maximize hash rate NOT efficiency.

Price, actual hash rate, power consumption, and date of first shipment are the big questions right now.
Chip technology doesn't really matter except indirectly in how it affects the hash rate and power consumption.

The S5+ is perfectly practical with 110V - I have no clue why people keep saying it needs 220. You DON'T have to run it from a single power supply after all.
I do still think the S5+ should have been called the S6 though, even if it's not really rack-mount form factor it's CLOSE.

I don't think the S5+ has a direct effect on when the S7 will go on sale - I think the only real holdup on the S7 right now is Bitmain clearing out all of their "used farm/Hashnest" S5 units as they get them replaced by S7 (or perhaps S8 or "S7+) units.

The people complain because it needs 2x 220-240v for optimal efficiency and also because 220v is more efficient, about 2% less waste, which at 90% is a 20% reduction in waste, up to 40%. Etc.

We could see a s7 be at around 0.8kWh for like 2.5TH. We'll see.

the s7 won't come out for months.

There is a good chance s-5++ can be made to run downclocked to 4.75th and use 1800 watts that translates to .375 watts a gh.

I will be ordering an s-5+ this weekend and try to test the findings out from this thread.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/antminer-s5-underclock-undervolt-best-jgh-1151460

if it tests as expected the s-5 generation has a lot of life left to it.

No need for bitmaintech to sell s-7's

They will off load all s-5's and s-5+'s for months to come. and if the mods allowing for lower power use pan out we will not see a s-7 until Jan or feb.

But i find that irritating, the s5+ is a very big chunk. A single unit form S5+ would be nice and affordable by piece. The S5+ right now is big and noisy, a lot of heat. I don't know what kind of noise you could get to with high quality performance low noise fans but that one unit is like my whole farm. =/

Topic: Bitmain Antminer S6 and S7 Speculation - page 3. (Read 33492 times)