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Topic: Black Arrow Customers - Consumer Complaints Links - page 7. (Read 20514 times)

sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
Hi guys,

Did any1 achieved anything by informing agencies about blackarrow's scam ?

Best regards,

Hi,

I haven't got any answer yet as it will take some time before Black Arrow receives my complaint/claim and responds to it
newbie
Activity: 12
Merit: 0
Hi guys,

Did any1 achieved anything by informing agencies about blackarrow's scam ?

Best regards,
newbie
Activity: 32
Merit: 0
BA moved their secretary service provider once, from "Companies Registrations & Secretary Ltd." in 2012 to "Galaxy Company Secretarial Services Ltd." in 2013. Obviously the street address changed with that, according to my info about UK (and as such HK) company registration services, you need a director and a secretary, where the secretary is used as primary contact for governmental and/or regulatory bodies.
newbie
Activity: 32
Merit: 0
Anyone looking to join a class action lawsuit against Black Arrow, I'd suggest you prepare a folder of your dealings with them. Starting from order details, E-Mail conversations, private messages here or on their forum, all eventual tickets and so on. Personally I've both screenshotted them and printed them to PDF to compile a nice dossier.

From my preliminary research on the legal side of this entire disaster, mostly thanks to the information and details provided by Pentax here, people might well be entitled to more than just their investment. Depending on jurisdiction, there is a possibility that BA would have to not only refund everyone, but also compensate for loss of profit, as well as loss of interest on this profit. This is especially true if law of the PRC comes into play, as Pentax already laid out, see Article 40 of the Law of the People's Republic of China on the Protection of Consumer Rights and Interests Chapter VII Legal Responsibility:

Quote
Business operators shall, if the commodities and services they supply
involve any of the following circumstances, bear civil liability in
accordance with the provisions of the Law of the People's Republic
of China on Product Quality and other relevant laws and regulations,
except as otherwise provided in the present Law:
[...]
8. deliberately delaying or unreasonably refusing consumers'
requests for
repair, remanufacture, replacement, return of goods,
makeup for the short commodities, return of payment for goods or
services, or compensation for losses
;
(emphasis is mine)

So in case of a conviction, BlackArrow would be liable to repay a ton more than was invested. I guess you could say at least that's a way to still get some ROI .

I'm currently working on getting the process started on my end, I'm also confering with Pentax on joining up in a class action suit to increase our chances of geting a conviction. I will post updates here from time to time, in case other "customers" of BlackArrow are interested to join us in this.
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
If they are not in first world country, you should just write it off as a loss.


Hong Kong is not a developing country as such. Alhough it is currently under Chinese control it has completely different and highly developed free market economy.
full member
Activity: 235
Merit: 102
If they are not in first world country, you should just write it off as a loss.
newbie
Activity: 54
Merit: 0
Thank you for opening this thread and perhaps unintentionally leading 'la resitance' against those scammers.
I'll be joining you real soon.
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
taken from another thread.

http://hongkong.usconsulate.gov/acs_consumer.html

Quote
Consumer/Business Disputes in Hong Kong

Consumer Council

If the trader fails to address your concerns after you have inquired directly, you may lodge a complaint with the Consumer Council. Some examples of problems the Council may be able to resolve include goods or services not corresponding to their description, delays in delivery or other dissatisfaction with service. You may lodge your complaint in a number of ways:

Online
- Complaint (Consumer Complaint Form - To facilitate the upload of attachment(s), you are advised to use Microsoft Internet Explorer.)

- Enquiry (Consumer Enquiry Form)
In writing
write down all the details of the incident and the points of dissatisfaction.
Specify the claim and, with a copy of related receipts or documents, send to the Council:

Consumer Council
North Point Consumer Advice Centre
Room 1410 14/F Kodak House II
39 Healthy Street East
North Point Hong Kong
By Phone
(852) 2929 2222 (Services hours: Monday to Friday 09:00 am - 05:30 pm)
By Fax
(852) 2856 3611
In Person
Visit any of the Consumer Advice Centres with a copy of related receipts or documents and lodge your case.
Office hours:
Monday to Friday
09:00 AM to 01:00 PM
02:00 PM to 06:00 PM
Small Claim Tribunal

The Small Claims Tribunal deals quickly, informally and inexpensively with claims not exceeding HK$50,000. Although the Tribunal is a court, the rules of evidence are less strictly adhered to than in most other courts, and no person can normally be represented by a lawyer.

Other Sources of Assistance

Hong Kong Tourism Board
11/F Citicorp Center
18 Whitfield Road
North Point, Hong Kong
Tel: 2807-6543
Fax: 2806-0303
Email: [email protected]

Hong Kong Government
Trade Mediation & Reserved Commodities Unit
Unit 1218-1222, 12/F, Nan Fung Commercial Centre
19 Lam Lok Street
Kowloon Bay, Kowloon, Hong Kong
Tel: 2707-7832
Fax: 2789-8258

Legal Services Providers in Hong Kong and Macau

 

Last modified: July 23, 2010
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
Consumer Legal Action Fund

allows for groups of consumers to take action together in Hong Kong.  Give it a read.

http://www.consumer.org.hk/website/ws_en/legal_protection/consumer_legal_actions_fund/CLAFBriefPDF.pdf
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500

I'm adding this because a lot people are asking me what they should do.  I want to make it clear that I'm not an attorney, just a guy trying to get his money back, just like everyone else.

Please take a look at all of this and look into the options to see what you think is best for you.  If I knew the absolute best thing to do, I'd post it.  If I knew what the outcome of this or that option would be, I'd tell you.  I don't and don't claim to.  Wish I did.

I'm putting up the options I've found that I think might help people.  do your homework, and ask questions of the representatives of the consumer groups if you have questions to find out if these things are right for you.  If you find new information that you think might help, by all means post it.  If you're talking to law firms let us know. 

When a legal firm is chosen I'll let people know, direct people to them and let people know what they tell me to tell people.
jr. member
Activity: 95
Merit: 1
If you ordered through MS in the United States, you will want to do the following as well:

You will want to file a complaint with the Attorney General of Colorado, the Attorney General of Missouri (the state they're based in) and your state.

While the AG isn't able to do much, they do send a letter to them and ask for their response as to why they are doing what they do. But if they get enough complaints, the AG then can step in and sue the company for customer protection violations.

According to the Federal Trade Commission, and I even spoke to them, if you requested a refund before shipment, they were required to refund you. What they tried to do in my case was bump me to the front of the shipping queue to send me my miners even though I expressly informed them I did not want them anymore.

So here are the links:

BBB: http://www.bbb.org/denver/

Colorado AG: https://www.coloradoattorneygeneral.gov/consumerfraudcomplaint

Missouri AG: https://www.consumer.ago.mo.gov/

FTC: https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/GettingStarted?NextQID=203&Url=%23%26panel1-6#crnt

Also file with your state BBB and Attorney General. And for kicks, you can file with the Missouri BBB and AG since they are incorporated there. https://www.consumer.ago.mo.gov/index.cgi

Here is info on their filings:

http://www.sos.state.co.us/biz/ViewImage.do?fileId=20131720684&masterFileId=20131720684

https://bsd.sos.mo.gov/BusinessEntity/BusinessEntityDetail.aspx?page=beSearch&ID=3524073

Then lastly: http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/16/435.2

They have violated most everything in there. They should of informed us within 30 days of any delays, each time, and asked if we wanted a refund or would like to continue with the pre-order. They never once did.

Use the address from MS's contact page and put in the notes everything you've done. They will also allow you to attach documents, so saving the emails into one file and such is a good idea.

And if you have done the above, please post or drop me a pm.
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
Just pasting this in here, as I imagine BA will delete it from the self moderated thread.




The company is registered in Hong Kong, so the proper agency from what I have been able to find out so far is the Hong Kong Consumer Council.

They request some documents and need to establish that this is a Hong Kong registered company  before they will agree to pick it up, therefore:

Send the annual report http://www.kiwi.nz/blackarrow/PS300015776549_01.pdf

along with the documents they have requested.  Those documents are:

1.  The invoice showing you paid
2   your bank or payment records showing the payment
3.  any e-mail or support discussions  you've had
4.  The annual report referenced above.

Here's the link to file a complaint if you decide you want to do that.

https://www.consumer.org.hk/cc-complaint/index.php?lang=en

Also indicate that their TOS indicates Hong Kong law and paste that in to your message.

http://www.blackarrowsoftware.com/store/terms-and-conditions-en.html#purchase

15.2 Applicable law and dispute resolution
16.2 1 This Agreement shall be interpreted and applied in accordance with the law of Hong Kong S.A.R. of PRC.

This is all the information they will need to pick this up.  They have been very helpful and responsive.  If that goes nowhere, Shenzhen Consumer Group, with which I have also been talking and then the lawyers will be next.
full member
Activity: 151
Merit: 100
People who pre-order black arrow should probably write it off as a scam.
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
Information on how to go after the actual culprit of this entire mess, Alexandru himself !  This scam easily qualifies above $75K.

http://fraudaid.com/How-To-Deal-With-Having-Been-Conned/Fraud_Report/Jurisdictions/International/ScotlandYard.htm
Are you talking about Alexandru Sovu of BByte Ltd? Does he own Black Arrow Software via BByte or personally? https://www.companiesintheuk.co.uk/director/52767/alexandru-sovu


See here for the Annual Report:  http://www.kiwi.nz/blackarrow/PS300015776549_01.pdf
sr. member
Activity: 291
Merit: 250
Scam-Busting PSA: Beware of Black Arrow Software
Information on how to go after the actual culprit of this entire mess, Alexandru himself !  This scam easily qualifies above $75K.

http://fraudaid.com/How-To-Deal-With-Having-Been-Conned/Fraud_Report/Jurisdictions/International/ScotlandYard.htm
Does he own Black Arrow Software via BByte or personally? https://www.companiesintheuk.co.uk/director/52767/alexandru-sovu
member
Activity: 120
Merit: 73
Information on how to go after the actual culprit of this entire mess, Alexandru himself !  This scam easily qualifies above $75K.

http://fraudaid.com/How-To-Deal-With-Having-Been-Conned/Fraud_Report/Jurisdictions/International/ScotlandYard.htm
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
This post will be a collection of the posts they deleted from their self moderated thread that I think may be relevant for people.  It may be a bit of a jumble, but I'll keep as clear as possible.  Actually they've probably done us all a favor as all of this will be easier to find for people instead of lost in that other thread.   

_______________________________________________________________________________ ________________

http://english.cntv.cn/program/newsupdate/20140315/103830.shtml

China’s amended law on consumer rights takes effect on Saturday, World Consumer Rights Day. The new version strengthens regulations on the e-commerce industry.

It allows consumers the right to return goods they bought via the Internet, television, telephone or mail orders within seven days from the date of receipt. It also specifies that delivery fees for returning the product shall be borne by the consumer, who should be paid back within a week after the seller receives the returned goods.
This is known as the "seven-day unconditional return."

_______________________________________________________________________________ ________________

Link to former Chinese consumer law.  The most updated version took effect earlier this year (2014).  I will post that also.

http://www.china.org.cn/china/LegislationsForm2001-2010/2011-02/14/content_21917139.htm

_______________________________________________________________________________ __________________



Article 39 Consumers whose legitimate rights and interests are infringed upon on account of commodities or services supplied by business operators by means of false advertisement may demand compensations from the business operators. Consumers may demand the competent administrative departments to punish the advertising agents who make false advertisements. Advertising agents who cannot provide the real names and addresses of the business operators shall be liable for compensation.

_______________________________________________________________________________ ____________________


Advance Payments

Advance payments, installment payments, and other transactions involving merchants’
management of consumer funds will require the establishment of earmarked, trusteeship
accounts at commercial banks.

_______________________________________________________________________________ ___________________


Article 24 Business operators may not, through format contracts, notices, announcements, entrance hall bulletins and so on, impose unfair or unreasonable rules on consumers or reduce or escape their civil liability for their infringement of the legitimate rights and interests of consumers.

Format contracts, notices, announcements, entrance hall bulletins and so on with contents mentioned in the preceding paragraph shall be invalid.

_______________________________________________________________________________ _____________________

Chapter III Obligations of Business Operators

Article 16 Business operators shall, in their supply of commodities and services to consumers, fulfill their obligations stipulated in the Law of the People's Republic of China on Product Quality and other laws and regulations concerned.

In case an agreement is reached between business operators and consumers, the business operators shall fulfill the obligations agreed upon in the agreement; but the agreement between the two parties shall not contravene the provisions of laws and regulations.

Article 17 Business operators shall listen to the consumers' opinions on the commodities and services they supply and accept consumers' supervision.

Article 18 Business operators shall guarantee that the commodities and services they supply meet the requirements for personal or property safety. As to commodities and services liable to harm personal or property safety, business operators shall give the consumers truthful explanation and clear-cut warnings, and shall explain or indicate the correct ways of using the commodities or receiving services as well as the methods of preventing damage.

Business operators shall, upon discovery of serious defects of the commodities or services they supply which are liable to harm personal or property safety even though the commodities are correctly applied or services are received in a correct way, immediately report to the administrative departments concerned and inform the consumers, and adopt measures to prevent damage.

Article 19 Business operators shall provide consumers with authentic information concerning their commodities or services, and may not make any false and misleading propaganda.

Business operators shall give truthful and definite replies to inquiries from consumers about the qualities of the commodities or services they supply and the operation methods thereof.

Shops shall mark clearly the prices of the commodities they supply.

Article 20 Business operators shall indicate their real names and marks.

Business operators who lease counters or grounds from others shall indicate their own real names and marks.

Article 21 Business operators who supply commodities or services shall make out for consumers invoices for purchases or documents of services in accordance with relevant regulations of the State or commercial practices; business operators must produce such invoices or documents where consumers so demand.

Article 22 Business operators shall guarantee the quality, functions, usage and term of validity which the commodities or services they supply should possess under normal operation or acceptance, except that consumers are aware of the defects before they buy the commodities or receive the services.

Business operators who employ advertisements, product instructions, samples or other ways to display the quality state of their commodities or services shall guarantee that the actual quality of the commodities or services they supply is in conformity with that demonstrated.

Article 23 Business operators who are under the obligation of repair or caveat venditor, or other responsibilities in accordance with regulations of the State or agreements with consumers shall carry out such obligations correspondingly according to such regulations or agreements, and may not deliberately delay or unreasonably refuse to do so.

Article 24 Business operators may not, through format contracts, notices, announcements, entrance hall bulletins and so on, impose unfair or unreasonable rules on consumers or reduce or escape their civil liability for their infringement of the legitimate rights and interests of consumers.

Format contracts, notices, announcements, entrance hall bulletins and so on with contents mentioned in the preceding paragraph shall be invalid.

Article 25 Business operators may not insult or slander consumers, may not search the body of consumers or the articles they carry with them, and may not violate the personal freedom of consumers.

_______________________________________________________________________________ _____________________


Law of the People's Republic of China on the Protection of Consumer Rights and InterestsChapter VII Legal Responsibility

Article 40 Business operators shall, if the commodities and services they supply involve any of the following circumstances, bear civil liability in accordance with the provisions of the Law of the People's Republic of China on Product Quality and other relevant laws and regulations, except as otherwise provided in the present Law:

(1) there existing defects in the commodities;

(2) not possessing the properties for use they should possess and no declaration thereabout is made at the time of sale;

(3) not conforming to the standards indicated on the commodities or on the packaging thereof;

(4) not conforming to the state of quality indicated by the product description or by physical samples;

(5) producing commodities that have been formally declared by the State to be eliminated or selling commodities that are no longer effective or deteriorated;

(6) commodities sold being short of weight or quantity;

(7) contents and costs of services being not in conformity with the agreements;

8 - deliberately delaying or unreasonably refusing consumers' requests for repair, remanufacture, replacement, return of goods, makeup for the short commodities, return of payment for goods or services, or compensation for losses;

_______________________________________________________________________________ _________________
newbie
Activity: 2
Merit: 0
Hi, Pentax, I would like to be your friend.
I want to join to the group taking legal action against BA, to get back our money from those incompetent scammers.
I live in The Netherlands, Rotterdam. (EU)
I have ordered directly from BA site 2 machines X3 on Batch 1, with option 50% prepaid in $, and next 50% to pay by delivery.
After last week update I do not trust in their scam anymore, few days ago I sent a refund request stating inefficiency caused by their delays and my inability to go in further debts on credit card. And only the status was changed from critical to normal. With no answer, confirmation or Email from them. So I do not know where I am staying now.
I am willing for full cooperation and to help with what I can.
So, what is your opinion?
Do we have any chance?
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
At this point BA has deleted many of my posts on their self moderated thread.  I haven't looked through all of them yet, but will repost some of them here when I have the opportunity to do so.

Anyone that would like to point people to this thread for information is of course welcome to do so, as they are seemingly attempting to censor information.  IMO people should know what their options really are in this circumstance so they can decide what is best for them. 

it also seems obvious that this latest information on agencies in Shenzhen and China has bothered them in some way.  They left the other information up, and jumped on these posts immediately.

I think that tells people something about whether or not or not these agencies may be effective in helping people to deal with BA. 

I am prepping my complaints and continuing to look for further information on consumer rights as they pertain to this situation and will post here as I am able.

Everyone else's decision is of course their own.  I am posting information for the sole purpose of letting people know what their options are, to the best of my knowledge.
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