Topic: Black Arrow Customers - Consumer Complaints Links - page 8. (Read 20518 times)

The former links for Hong Kong consumer complaints may or may not be the suitable office to handle complaints, which explains why BA did not delete the post linking to the Hong Kong office either in the BA thread or on their forum, when it was posted by someone else there.

They are quite happy apparently to let people run in circles.  Unfortunately for them that only goes so far if people follow up instead of simply thinking it is impossible or that China does not have these sorts of agencies.  None of that is the case, I assure you.  That Hong Kong office has been responsive, as have been other agencies, and most of attorneys I and others have spoken to, to clarify this.

They wrote: "Under the "one country, two systems" arrangement, Hong Kong Special Administrative Region has a separate government and a different political system. Therefore, we are not in a position to handle complaints against a trader in Mainland China...if your complaint is against a Hong Kong registered company, please provide the payment record, bank confirmation and other supporting documents..."

We know from the annual report that they are indeed registered in Hong Kong, so I will be sending that report located here:

http://www.kiwi.nz/blackarrow/PS300015776549_01.pdf

along with the documents they have requested, back to the Hong Kong office

https://www.consumer.org.hk/cc-complaint/index.php?lang=en

, as well as filing a report in Shenzhen and with another agency I have been given the information for.

The contact details of the other agency they recommended, China Consumers’ Association are as follow:
 
Phone number: (86) 1063281315 / (86) 1063253100
Office address in English: China Consumers’Association, Level 3, Ganjiakou No.12, North First Street, Fu Cheng Road, Haiding District, Beijing, China
Office address in Chinese: 北京市海淀区阜成路北一街甘家口12号楼3层中国消費者协会
Postal number: 100037

I will try to get a website or something for the China Consumer's Association and post it here if I can find it.  If anyone else comes across it, by all means post it.

Looks like he is incorporated in the Virgin Islands.  That's likely a tax haven outside the EU.  I believe a lawyer could go after him personally.  The stock is held 100% by his haven business that I'm sure he's 100% owner of.  It's the same baloney Ken Slaughter tried with incorporating VMC/AMC in Belize.  The Government doesn't care, they went right after Ken personally because of where he operates out of.   In this case, the court would go right to the owner because he owns all the stock and likely operates out of the UK.  He's not shielded, in fact because he doesn't appear to have any other officers, he's completely holding the bag for everyone else in the company.

An SEC investigation would force him to produce refunds to customers.  But being that he's in the EU, the jurisdiction would reside with them to make that move.  And they might be more apt to do it, because there is less of this stuff going on there. 

Armchair lawyering though.  You should talk to a real lawyer about it (As you are doing) to get a list of options.  Doesn't sound like you need to go through China though.  I bet it's going to be an EU case or even in the United States.

For some reason I've got it in mind that the T's and C's changed at various points along the timeline, but I haven't dug out the copy I thought I had from the point I ordered. Any chance anyone else has copies as they were at various times (or to correct me if they've stayed the same)? We really need to establish a proper timeline of statements, including the misleading ones (such as the legendary 'we're on/ahead of schedule' said in January, quickly followed by the massive delay).

See here for the Annual Report:  http://www.kiwi.nz/blackarrow/PS300015776549_01.pdf

thx mate!

yep, these are all relevant questions.  I don't know that Black Arrow will willingly hand over this information, although some of it seems to be part of Chinese law, but it would probably be a good idea at this initial stage to request that information as part of any filings.

The lawyers will figure it out fairly quickly as part of initial case review.  I will ask them about these things also.

Is the company incorporated?  And is it incorporated in China?  I remember hearing that the owner is in England.  Regardless of where the company operates, you need to know where it is incorporated.  That would be the country to sue in.  If they are not incorporated and are a partnership or soul owner business, then you would go after the owner directly.

You can sue them in the United States.  You would win, because they won't show up.  Then you file paperwork to get an embargo done on their (and their owner's) ability to ever do business in the United States again.  This is how Commodore International (Commodore 64 computer) went out of business.  They lost a private lawsuit, the judge put an embargo on their ability to bring hardware into the country, and they went out of business.  (After years of mismanagement prevented them from being able to afford to pay the judgement)

Discussions with law firms in Shenzhen and US firms with offices in Shenzhen are ongoing to determine the best course of action.

yes, I think we're all in the same boat, unfortunately.

I have not yet filed with this agency, but have been thinking about it.  They will decide whether or not to handle a given complaint.  It is likely that if a bunch come in at once they are more likely to take it on.  

Maybe we give this a day or so and then file as closely together as reasonably possible.

In the meantime, I will further organize some of this, go through that website to pull out what they want in terms of information in a given comlaint and see if I can get a direct channel to someone there.

I've requested a refound also (20x prospero x1), if they'll refuse my refound - i will like to join some group that will take legal actions against blackarrow.

Do you know if any1 is forming that kind of group already?

Best Regards,

Thanks for collating all the info. Just 'watching' while awaiting the response to my refund request after being left feeling badly let down by black arrow software.

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Quote
Quote from: y_boonstra on Today at 11:43:52 AM
Quote from: Pentax on Today at 11:28:28 AM
Here is a link to the Shenzhen Consumer Council provided by a legal firm in Shenzhen.  Complaints can be filed through this agency.

Pages are in Chinese, so you will have to translate them if this is not your language.

http://www.sz315.org/index.php?m=content&c=index&a=lists&catid=10

Wich form do we have to fill in ? im looking around but it aint what you call organised

I think it is this page:

http://www.sz315.org/index.php?m=content&c=index&a=show&catid=19&id=6169

It looks like we simply fill in the box with information and they take it from there.  Obviously, I'd add details, including the breaches, order number, and what you'd like them to do.

See this page for some more info on what they want:  http://www.sz315.org/index.php?m=content&c=index&a=show&catid=19&id=6175

I will also look for a general contact e-mail or something and have asked for that also.

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Quote
Here is a link to the Shenzhen Consumer Council provided by a legal firm in Shenzhen.  Complaints can be filed through this agency.

Pages are in Chinese, so you will have to translate them if this is not your language.

http://www.sz315.org/index.php?m=content&c=index&a=lists&catid=10

_______________________________________________________________________________ _


China Consumer's Association

http://www.cca.org.cn/english/index.jsp


http://www.consumersinternational.org/our-members/member-directory/China%20Consumers%20Association

e-mail:  [email protected]

_____________________________________________________________________________
Hong-Kong consumer council

The Consumer Council can be contacted at:

Address: 22nd Floor, K. Wah Centre, 191 Java Road, North Point, Hong Kong
Tel: 852 2856 3113
Fax: 852 2856 3611
Email: [email protected]
Website: http://www.consumer.org.hk


see posts below on how to file with the Hong Kong Consumer Council

I have started this thread because the people at Black Arrow have been deleting information on consumer agencies from their thread.  

I will put information here on consumer agencies that will take consumer complaints as well as general information.  

If anyone has anything to add for the benefit of Black Arrow customers, by all means do so.


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Edit:
 
I'm adding this because a lot people are asking me what they should do.  I want to make it clear that I'm not an attorney, just a guy trying to get his money back, just like everyone else.

Please take a look at all of this and look into the options to see what you think is best for you.  If I knew the absolute best thing to do, I'd post it.  If I knew what the outcome of this or that option would be, I'd tell you.  I don't and don't claim to.  Wish I did.

I'm putting up the options I've found that I think might help people.  do your homework, and ask questions of the representatives of the consumer groups if you have questions to find out if these things are right for you.  If you find new information that you think might help, by all means post it.  If you're talking to law firms let us know.  

When a legal firm is chosen I'll let people know, direct people to them and let people know what they tell me to tell people.  
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