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Topic: [BTC-TC] Deprived Mining Speculation (DMS) - page 73. (Read 198958 times)

hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
It is a speculator's toy, perfect for its use, but carries additional risk.

This the absolute core of what you get wrong.

Yes - DMS is great for some speculators (for others its absolutely horrible - e.g. IPO flippers).
But MINING is also great for investors  - if any PMB is profitable in current price range then MINING is.  That's a HUGE IF of course - there's a whole load of people holding SELLING who think even at the current price MINING will never make a profit (and nor will any other higher priced PMBs if so).
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
http://coin.furuknap.net/
You can't have it both ways.

Either the price will recover - in which case they haven't made a loss.
Or it won't recover - in which case how can it keep happening?  How much cheaper does it have to be before having to maybe wait a few days to sell is worth it?

Now you're just being argumentative.

What about the next time? Or the time after that? We're looking at twice per month where, for two days, this asset is a really bad thing for those who believe in mining but wants to free up money for whatever reason, forced or not.

Let me see if I've understood this right.

DMS.Mining is designed to prove that mining is unprofitable, but if it is profitable, the asset will close. People investing here will have no chance of winning the bet because you'll have an ejection seat that shuts down if you approach a point where it is profitable over time.

If mining difficulty, like some believe, will flatten out after say 1.5-2PHs, your asset will close within 200 days. If you had to run it for two years at steady difficulty, you shut it down according to the contract, paying out less than people would expect to get from a steady difficulty over time.

What part of this am I not getting?

.b
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
http://coin.furuknap.net/
The volatility is one of the main draws of this asset -at least for traders. Simply keeping up with the latest here on the forums as well as having blockchain.info open to examine how the hashrate is going allows a trader to gain a significant lead on any drops or rises SELLING/MINING will experience - the volatility simply makes the peaks and valleys extra violent and more profitable.

Believe it or not when Deprived launched this instrument I only had 2 bitcoins, now after a month or so I am up to 11 BTC almost solely on trading, with a solid 40% chunk of that coming from taking advantage of how violent yet predictable the DMS stocks behave.

I fully agree, if I hadn't been busy responding to idiocy about ming assets all over the place, I'd have traded it much more. It's a fun construct for those that care to follow it.

For those that may happen to be in a position where they want to get out, twice a month, this probably isn't a good way of investing in mining.

.b
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
If someone wants to sell right now then yes - they'd make a heavy loss.  But at least they CAN sell - on BFMINES there's next to zero bids above HALF the IPO price even though nothing has changed.  So right now it's choice between selling at 20% below where it was yesterday or selling at 50% below where it was yesterday.  And something in IPO which hasn't yet paid a single dividend or done anything shouldn't be dropping at all.

I was trying to show you that when it moves, DMS moves more than regular PMB assets because it was designed that way. It's a great asset; don't get me wrong, but by its design, it will move faster and probably further than what is reasonable from the facts.

Difficulty didn't go up the 37% that a drop of 28% should indicate. DMS is thus more volatile than other assets because emotion drives it further. It is a speculator's toy, perfect for its use, but carries additional risk. If today's numbers don't convince you of that risk, I don't know what would.

Also, I don't think I've ever said that DMS.Mining is more expensive for it's PMS-style mhs. I even used the most favorable numbers for straight PMBs when comparing the prices, _and_ I published them, showing that at the time, DMS.Mining was 8% cheaper than BFMines.

For people that saved those 8% that day, however, they have now lost 18% more than they had with TAT.VM or BFMines, in a worst case situation. My statement about added risk must therefore be true.

It may go up again, which is great for some, but the risk is there, and it is larger than for other comparable assets. That has been my argument, not one of price. DMS.Mining is currently much cheaper per PMB-style mhs. That cheapness, as demonstrated today, comes at a price. If you are willing to pay that price, you can save money.

.b

The volatility is one of the main draws of this asset -at least for traders. Simply keeping up with the latest here on the forums as well as having blockchain.info open to examine how the hashrate is going allows a trader to gain a significant lead on any drops or rises SELLING/MINING will experience - the volatility simply makes the peaks and valleys extra violent and more profitable.

Believe it or not when Deprived launched this instrument I only had 2 bitcoins, now after a month or so I am up to 11 BTC almost solely on trading, with a solid 40% chunk of that coming from taking advantage of how violent yet predictable the DMS stocks behave.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
If someone wants to sell right now then yes - they'd make a heavy loss.  But at least they CAN sell - on BFMINES there's next to zero bids above HALF the IPO price even though nothing has changed.  So right now it's choice between selling at 20% below where it was yesterday or selling at 50% below where it was yesterday.  And something in IPO which hasn't yet paid a single dividend or done anything shouldn't be dropping at all.

I was trying to show you that when it moves, DMS moves more than regular PMB assets because it was designed that way. It's a great asset; don't get me wrong, but by its design, it will move faster and probably further than what is reasonable from the facts.

Difficulty didn't go up the 37% that a drop of 28% should indicate. DMS is thus more volatile than other assets because emotion drives it further. It is a speculator's toy, perfect for its use, but carries additional risk. If today's numbers don't convince you of that risk, I don't know what would.

Also, I don't think I've ever said that DMS.Mining is more expensive for it's PMS-style mhs. I even used the most favorable numbers for straight PMBs when comparing the prices, _and_ I published them, showing that at the time, DMS.Mining was 8% cheaper than BFMines.

For people that saved those 8% that day, however, they have now lost 18% more than they had with TAT.VM or BFMines, in a worst case situation. My statement about added risk must therefore be true.

It may go up again, which is great for some, but the risk is there, and it is larger than for other comparable assets. That has been my argument, not one of price. DMS.Mining is currently much cheaper per PMB-style mhs. That cheapness, as demonstrated today, comes at a price. If you are willing to pay that price, you can save money.

.b

You can't have it both ways.

Either the price will recover - in which case they haven't made a loss.
Or it won't recover - in which case how can it keep happening?  How much cheaper does it have to be before having to maybe wait a few days to sell is worth it?

And people who bought, saving that 8%, haven't lost it unless they planned to sell now (there's a very minor exception to that if difficulty now dropped - but that's not what's happening).  They'll receive exactly the same dividends as they'd have got if the price had doubled, halved or remained unchanged.

People buying PMBs or contracts buy an income stream.  They still have it and its underlying value hasn't changed.  What HAS changed is the price the market is trading it at.

There's precisely one reasonable scenario in which your agrument definitely makes sense (other than for a tiny minority of people with horrible cash-management skills).  That's if BOTH of MINING and BFMINING were sginficantly over-priced at the start.  In that scenario, a falling price of MINING represents the market realising it was over-priced - and BFMINING not reacting so fast gives investors there more time to get out, possibly losing less.  Or it would if there were any bids.

If they weren't overpriced initially then MINING dropping BELOW a fair price isn't bad news at all as :

a)  It will almost certainly recover once people realise it's underpriced.
b) The investor can buy more at bargain prices if they want.

The sole time it's THEN bad news is if they have an overwhelming need to sell right now (i.e. they're horrible at managing their money and shouldn't be touching ANY security without issuer-provided liquidity).  But, as already pointed out, they can't sell any volume on BFMINES near starting price either (anyone in a desperate rush to sell needs bids waiting).

On the subject of percentages be careful what you look at when considering what people are reacting to.  Some people are using sites that predict NEXT difficulty based on current hash-rate - those are suggesting a 20% rise next time as well, so they may be basing their judgment on that.  I think thay's unwise - as with only a tiny sample since difficulty change there's no way to distinguish between increased has-power and good network luck.  But don't assume all price movements are necessarily just because of what HAS happened - some people factor in other things (not all of which SHOULD be factored in of course).
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
http://coin.furuknap.net/
If someone wants to sell right now then yes - they'd make a heavy loss.  But at least they CAN sell - on BFMINES there's next to zero bids above HALF the IPO price even though nothing has changed.  So right now it's choice between selling at 20% below where it was yesterday or selling at 50% below where it was yesterday.  And something in IPO which hasn't yet paid a single dividend or done anything shouldn't be dropping at all.

I was trying to show you that when it moves, DMS moves more than regular PMB assets because it was designed that way. It's a great asset; don't get me wrong, but by its design, it will move faster and probably further than what is reasonable from the facts.

Difficulty didn't go up the 37% that a drop of 28% should indicate. DMS is thus more volatile than other assets because emotion drives it further. It is a speculator's toy, perfect for its use, but carries additional risk. If today's numbers don't convince you of that risk, I don't know what would.

Also, I don't think I've ever said that DMS.Mining is more expensive for it's PMS-style mhs. I even used the most favorable numbers for straight PMBs when comparing the prices, _and_ I published them, showing that at the time, DMS.Mining was 8% cheaper than BFMines.

For people that saved those 8% that day, however, they have now lost 18% more than they had with TAT.VM or BFMines, in a worst case situation. My statement about added risk must therefore be true.

It may go up again, which is great for some, but the risk is there, and it is larger than for other comparable assets. That has been my argument, not one of price. DMS.Mining is currently much cheaper per PMB-style mhs. That cheapness, as demonstrated today, comes at a price. If you are willing to pay that price, you can save money.

.b
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
I should add one thing.

There IS a good reason why there'll usually be high volatility on MINING the day before the first dividend after a large difficulty change.  SELLING will get a massive dividend the next day - because of that people have to pull SELLING bids in advance of the didivend.  That process starts the day before - and results in a wide spread on SELLING (with maybe a few orders from those who didn't cancel in the gap).

Because MINING and SELLING can be arbitraged vs PURCHASE that leads to uncertainty and a wider than usual spread on MINING.  Because this only occurs after a large difficulty rise that it going to tend to be demonstrated by a downward movement of MINING.

So larger spreads and a bit more volatility ARE expected on the day before large SELLING dividends.  Which has zero impact on actual investors - and adds lots of potential fun for those trading.  On the previous two occasions the price recovered back to where it was before - which can't continue forever as we know the value of PMBs falls over time.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
On what basis do you decide it has a higher volatilty?  Here's the graph for MINING (go to 30-day):

http://www.coinflow.co/chart/DMS.MINING

Indeed there WAS a big drop after the difficulty rise on 22nd June.  But thing is, the price rebounded back up again afterwards.  In fact the price now (1 day before a large rise in difficulty) is basically exactly the same as it was on 21st June (the day before the large difficulty rise 2 rises ago).  The evidence just doesn't support your agrument that DMS.MINING has more volatilty.

I'm basing my argument on the fact that the entire security was designed to give a double exposure to changes and that people convinced of a shift in either direction would choose to get that double exposure.

DMS.Purchase is essentially a two-ticket bet; one FOR, one AGAINST. Assuming someone believes in FOR, then it makes no sense to hold the AGAINST, so they sell that. To get in on the FOR bet, they also have to vote against AGAINST. I think you even wrote this in your prospectus.

Right now, there is a 'panic' of sorts due to the difficulty shift, and what I'm seeing is that DMS.Mining drops 20% in 24 hours, whereas BFMines has dropped less than 10% and TAT.VM has dropped just around 10%. A seller that wants to liquidate DMS.Mining now has lost far more than whoever wanted to liquidate his or her BFMines today.

.b



If someone wants to sell right now then yes - they'd make a heavy loss.  But at least they CAN sell - on BFMINES there's next to zero bids above HALF the IPO price even though nothing has changed.  So right now it's choice between selling at 20% below where it was yesterday or selling at 50% below where it was yesterday.  And something in IPO which hasn't yet paid a single dividend or done anything shouldn't be dropping at all.

I DO agree that MINING isn't any use for speculators who want to buy something at IPO and watch the price rise.
For investors who buy to hold for dividends the daily trading price ONLY matters when they want to sell.
And if the price is low because of panic now (as you think) rather than being an actual correction from being overvalued (which some think - as it basically hasn't fallen for 3 weeks) then it's a great time to buy it right?

IF your theory about the double pressure making panics move the price is right then it's actually a BETTER option for the specific people you identified.  They just have to time their buy for one of those panics - then worst case is they sell at bottom of another (getting same profit as alternatives but with less capital tied up) and best case is they make an immediate profit when the price rises back up.

Your logic is just terribly flawed as assume people will do the worst possible thing - then use the assumption that people CAN do worse on MINING than BFMINES ((if they pick the worst timing for everything and do some half-hearted mix of investing/speculating) as somehow meaning that they will.

We'll find out in a few days whether this was a panic dump or an overdue correction - a lot of the volume was actually some people buying SELLING because of its dividend tomorrow then others arbitraging via PURCHASE and dropping MINING to balance.

The real key today is the lack of people BUYING PMBs at all - suggesting a price move downwards is coming for all.  Majority of volume on TAT.VM was TAT offloading a load more into the bids of people who naively believed they could buy then flip for a profit.  The price didn't  fall lower there as he opened up a nice spread, so noone other than him was selling much into bids and he was only selling down to .004.  

Anyone desperate to be able to sell securities immediately without significant loss shouldn't invest in EITHER of MINING or BFMINEs (or any other security without a guaranteed bid-wall from the issuer).  MINING can move around a lot (bids tend to be small but replaced quite a lot - so even if price is stable it can take a while to sell any quantity) and BFMINES has near zero demand above 50% of IPO - so no way for anyone to sell any sort of amount anyway without having a haircut that's near a decapitation.  If people want immediate liquidty stick to securities where the issuer provides it - or don't invest at all.

If people can wait a day or two then IF this is just a panic/over-reaction/excessive arbitrage of SELLING demand then price will recover.

Pretty much regardless of everything else, it's generally better to buy the under-priced one than the over-priced one (speaking relatively - both may be under-priced or both over-priced).  Either MINING is so cheap it can be bought and forgot about, confident of profit or it isn't.  And if MINING isn't cheap then BFMINES must be over-priced (or the chances of profit slim).  

You'd better hope MINING price rises - or your sales are going to drop through the floor.  As I don't think there's THAT many 'investors' who will pay 1/3 more for non-delivered hardware just because they're worried MINING occasionally spikes downwards AND have faith that bids will appear from nowhere on BFMINES if they ever need to sell.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
http://coin.furuknap.net/
Right now, there is a 'panic' of sorts due to the difficulty shift, and what I'm seeing is that DMS.Mining drops 20% in 24 hours, whereas BFMines has dropped less than 10% and TAT.VM has dropped just around 10%. A seller that wants to liquidate DMS.Mining now has lost far more than whoever wanted to liquidate his or her BFMines today.

Just so that I'm not just gut-feeling numbers here, I'm using the 24-hour high versus latest sale at 7:46 PM CST:

DMS.Mining high: 0.018661
DMS.Mining latest: 0.01355
DMS.Mining diff: 72%

TAT.VM high: 0.004675
TAT.VM latest: 0.004226
TAT.VM diff: 90%

BFMines high: 0.004
BFMines latest*: 0.003603
BFMines diff: 90%

*actually BFMines latest just popped up to 0.00399 again, so I'm using the 24 hour lowest instead

.b
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
http://coin.furuknap.net/
On what basis do you decide it has a higher volatilty?  Here's the graph for MINING (go to 30-day):

http://www.coinflow.co/chart/DMS.MINING

Indeed there WAS a big drop after the difficulty rise on 22nd June.  But thing is, the price rebounded back up again afterwards.  In fact the price now (1 day before a large rise in difficulty) is basically exactly the same as it was on 21st June (the day before the large difficulty rise 2 rises ago).  The evidence just doesn't support your agrument that DMS.MINING has more volatilty.

I'm basing my argument on the fact that the entire security was designed to give a double exposure to changes and that people convinced of a shift in either direction would choose to get that double exposure.

DMS.Purchase is essentially a two-ticket bet; one FOR, one AGAINST. Assuming someone believes in FOR, then it makes no sense to hold the AGAINST, so they sell that. To get in on the FOR bet, they also have to vote against AGAINST. I think you even wrote this in your prospectus.

Right now, there is a 'panic' of sorts due to the difficulty shift, and what I'm seeing is that DMS.Mining drops 20% in 24 hours, whereas BFMines has dropped less than 10% and TAT.VM has dropped just around 10%. A seller that wants to liquidate DMS.Mining now has lost far more than whoever wanted to liquidate his or her BFMines today.

.b
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
just a question...

For example the Difficulty rises each time by 20% ( about 2 times per month) so then follows a decrease by about 0.008 per PURCHASE share each time difficulty rises.

The beginning Price was  0.066149BTC  for PURCHASE.

so....0.066149-0.008-0.008-0.008.....and so on...

so after about 4 Months the Price/Value of PURCHASE will be about 0 BTC    is that correct?

What happend then? is the Security OVER?

and what happend with the TOTAL Assets of about 1900 BTC now?

what happend with SELLING shares?



((the numbers are "estimated"))

You have the principle wrong.

Let's assume every change happened just like the current one.

Next dividend would NOT be 0.008 again.  The amount of the dividend depends on what the current NAV/U is - and that will be much smaller after this one.

So next dividend would actually be more like .0064 then the one after that .0051 etc.  Each time the size of the dividend would get smaller - so although it would tend towards 0 it would never actually get there. (EDIT: that's assuming similar difficulty rise to this one, similar profits from investment etc).

The amount of the dividend isn't actually a percentage of SELLING price anyway - it's based on PURCHASE price (which is a reflection of NAV/U) and isn't the same as the percentage difficulty rsie (it's just a coincidence that this time it happens to be the same % of SELLING price).

The total assets drop when the dividends are paid - that's what they're used for where they go.

You can see how it works yourself.  Just start off with some number like 10 - and take off 10% each time.  How long does it take you to reach 0?

With what you were describing it would reach 0 in 10 gos.  But if you keep multiplying it by 0.9 (which takes 10% off CURRENT value) then you won't reach 0 ever (subject to limitations of whatever you do it on).
hero member
Activity: 709
Merit: 500
Gridcoin Foundation
just a question...

For example the Difficulty rises each time by 20% ( about 2 times per month) so then follows a decrease by about 0.008 per PURCHASE share each time difficulty rises.

The beginning Price was  0.066149BTC  for PURCHASE.

so....0.066149-0.008-0.008-0.008.....and so on...

so after about 4 Months the Price/Value of PURCHASE will be about 0 BTC    is that correct?

What happend then? is the Security OVER?

and what happend with the TOTAL Assets of about 1900 BTC now?

what happend with SELLING shares?



((the numbers are "estimated"))
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
yeah its all good, I remembered the part about mining dividend based on 16 hours, but not the part about that affecting selling div timing if difficulty had changed already, but I haven't actually looked at all the details of the fund since week 1 when I set up my spreadsheet, and now I just look at that Smiley
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
er, will you remind me why the selling div didn't happen today?

edit: oh...23:59 GMT deadline....? weird, I don't remember that, oh well, no matter.

Same thing happened on one of the other two SELLING dividends - the contract was written to pay based on difficulty 16 hours earlier so that, on average, MINING got slightly more than strict PPS without the messier math of working out an exact dividend based on the precise time a difficulty change occurred at.  I subsequently added a personal commitment that where the change occurs prior to midnight (but after 16:00 the previous day) I'd personally pay the difference between old and new dividends to MINING (which I did on one occasion so far).  That wouldn't, of course, have changed SELLING's entitlement to a dividend today had difficulty changed a bit earlier.  The personal commitment was made so as to allow more direct comparison to TAT.VM - but having exactly same dividend payment (other than rounding of the last digit on occasions).

It's simpler this way - once you realise how it's done - but more confusing UNTIL you realise how it's done.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
er, will you remind me why the selling div didn't happen today?

edit: oh...23:59 GMT deadline....? weird, I don't remember that, oh well, no matter.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
NOT AN ACTUAL REPORT - ESTIMATE OF TOMORROW'S

BTC Balance (BTC-TC)   1444.673373
12581 LTC-ATF.B1    125.81000000
Coinlenders CD    201.75000000
Just-Dice Balance    108.03255545
TOTAL ASSETS    1,880.26592824
   
Outstanding MINING   39813
Outstanding SELLING   39813
Outstanding PURCHASE   675
Effective Units   40488
   
Block reward   25
Difficulty   26,162,876
Hashes per MINING   5000000
   
Daily Dividend    0.00009611
50 days (Min Liquid)    0.00480554
100 days (Forced Close)    0.00961107
365 days (Buyback)    0.03508041
405 days (IPO)    0.03892484
400 days (Post SELLING div)    0.03844428
410 days (Pre SELLING div)    0.03940539
   
NAV Post MINING Div    1,876.37459782
NAV/U Post MINING Div    0.04634397
Days Dividend Post Div   482.19
SELLING Dividend    0.00789968
NAV Post SELLING Div    1,556.53216697
NAV/U Post Selling Div    0.03844428
PURCHASE selling price    0.04036650
PURCHASE buy-back price    0.03767540

This excludes any profit/loss from J-D and also any increase in NAV from sales of PURCHASE.

Projected SELLING dividend is just under .008 - had the difficulty change occured an hour earlier then the dividend would have been today and been just over .008 (difference is 1 day of MINING dividend at the old rate).

Total SELLING dividend paid (to SELLING + PURCHASE) should be around 320 BTC.
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1000
in the meantime it already looks like a very nice dividend for selling after the next difficulty change  Grin

Est Next Difficulty 31817240.82
Est % Change 21.61%
Retarget Distance 10d 20hr 48m 6s

That'd be nice if it does continue at this pace; DI before yesterday's was 'only' ~9-12% though
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
Sold   2306
Swapped   0
Total   2306
Price   0.048832
Total   112.606592
Less Fee   112.3813788
Man Fee   3.371441364

BTC Balance (BTC-TC)   1449.445288
12581 LTC-ATF.B1    125.81000000
Coinlenders CD    201.63041398
Just-Dice Balance    108.03255545
TOTAL ASSETS    1,884.91825790
   
Outstanding MINING   39813
Outstanding SELLING   39813
Outstanding PURCHASE   675
Effective Units   40488
   
Block reward   25
Difficulty   21,335,329
Hashes per MINING   5000000
   
Daily Dividend    0.00011786
50 days (Min Liquid)    0.00589288
100 days (Forced Close)    0.01178577
365 days (Buyback)    0.04301806
405 days (IPO)    0.04773236
400 days (Post SELLING div)    0.04714308
410 days (Pre SELLING div)    0.04832165
   
NAV Post MINING Div    1,880.14643576
NAV/U Post MINING Div    0.04643713
Days Dividend Post Div   394.01
SELLING Dividend    -        
NAV Post SELLING Div    1,880.14643576
NAV/U Post Selling Div    0.04643713
PURCHASE selling price    0.04875898
PURCHASE buy-back price    0.04550839
hero member
Activity: 1974
Merit: 856
in the meantime it already looks like a very nice dividend for selling after the next difficulty change  Grin

Est Next Difficulty 31817240.82
Est % Change 21.61%
Retarget Distance 10d 20hr 48m 6s
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1000
Sorry, Noon EDT, 1600 GMT  Grin 

Getting my time zones mixed up!
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