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Topic: [BTS] Bitshares #1 Fastest Crypto, Tokens, DEX, ICOs since 2014 (unofficial ಠ_ಠ) - page 64. (Read 125532 times)

yvv
legendary
Activity: 1344
Merit: 1000
.
Is the lending business coming soon to Bitshares?

If I get enough support on the idea, it can turn into a worker to hire devs to do it: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,24890.0.html

That would be absolutely awesome, but it requires quite some time to really set it up and make it functional, correct?

P2P lending is a waste of time and money in my opinion. too much scam

This requires trust between parties, which is difficult to achieve in p2p manner. Nevertheless, different types of lending on blockchain are absolutely possible and are happening already. For example, crowd funding through ICO is a sort of lending.

hero member
Activity: 980
Merit: 500
Bitshares is doing good work at exchanges as well. It is such an amazing project and still under the radar as many people are mot aware of the potential fully. I also came to know it after doing some research to find highly potential projects to invest some amount for future. It is already up since I bought under 3k satoshi.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1000
Is the lending business coming soon to Bitshares?

If I get enough support on the idea, it can turn into a worker to hire devs to do it: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,24890.0.html

That would be absolutely awesome, but it requires quite some time to really set it up and make it functional, correct?

P2P lending is a waste of time and money in my opinion. too much scam
sr. member
Activity: 826
Merit: 250
Is the lending business coming soon to Bitshares?

If I get enough support on the idea, it can turn into a worker to hire devs to do it: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,24890.0.html

That would be absolutely awesome, but it requires quite some time to really set it up and make it functional, correct?
hero member
Activity: 570
Merit: 500
2017-09-04 Historical Facts about Daniel Larimer and his Contributions to the Blockchain Industry
https://steemit.com/eosio/@xeroc/historical-facts-about-daniel-larimer-and-his-contributions-to-the-blockchain-industry

2017-09-04 [ANN] Golos & GBG gateway with 0% fees for decentralized trading platform Bitshares RuDEX launched
https://steemit.com/blockchain/@blockchained/ann-golos-and-gbg-gateway-with-0-fees-for-decentralized-trading-platform-bitshares-rudex-launched

2017-09-06 Part 3: Bitspark Launches Zephyr Token on Bitshares
https://steemit.com/bitshares/@bitspark/part-3-bitspark-launches-zephyr-token-on-bitshares

2017-09-06 Bitshares - State of the Network - 5th September 2017
https://steemit.com/bitshares/@steempower/bitshares-state-of-the-network-5th-september-2017

holy crap that's a long state of the network

hero member
Activity: 570
Merit: 500
Is the lending business coming soon to Bitshares?

If I get enough support on the idea, it can turn into a worker to hire devs to do it: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,24890.0.html
sr. member
Activity: 826
Merit: 250
Is the lending business coming soon to Bitshares?
HR
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1011
Transparency & Integrity

Great articles posted here you guys! Fantastic thread! Would that be due to the product itself, or the people involved? That's just me trying to be funny, I know it's totally symbiotic!  Cheesy 

Here are my tweets of the top 2 articles recently posted here:

https://twitter.com/HR_DGB/status/904754036502663168

https://twitter.com/HR_DGB/status/904755870793379840


Anyone have any doubts about where BitShares is headed?  Cool
sr. member
Activity: 630
Merit: 250
stable for weeks 3.2-3.5k

bitshares when the future will rise??
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1000
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1000
"We are pleased to announce that the kexcoin token will be accepted as payment towards rents in all Kexcoin and Kexgill group properties"
https://twitter.com/kexcoinofficial/status/903301486226092032

Kexcoin is a ICO/Real Estate project on BitShares

How can this affect the course? I see that BTS are not very volatile, can we expect any growth in the near future?

more projects, more users, more interest, more holders.
full member
Activity: 131
Merit: 100
"We are pleased to announce that the kexcoin token will be accepted as payment towards rents in all Kexcoin and Kexgill group properties"
https://twitter.com/kexcoinofficial/status/903301486226092032

Kexcoin is a ICO/Real Estate project on BitShares

How can this affect the course? I see that BTS are not very volatile, can we expect any growth in the near future?
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1000
"We are pleased to announce that the kexcoin token will be accepted as payment towards rents in all Kexcoin and Kexgill group properties"
https://twitter.com/kexcoinofficial/status/903301486226092032

Kexcoin is a ICO/Real Estate project on BitShares
yvv
legendary
Activity: 1344
Merit: 1000
.
I guess, it also depends on how you define the leverage. If you define the leverage as

(investment+max_debt)/investment

then yes, you have a leverage over 2x. But on other exchanges they call leverage the ratio of

max_debt/investment

And in any case, this number depends only on collateral ratio.
hero member
Activity: 570
Merit: 500
You are confusing yourself. Details of how you short sell your investment does not matter. Look at the end result. If you invest X, maximum you can borrow with collateral ratio of 1.75 is 1.33*X. 1.33x is your leverage, and you can't exceed this ratio no matter what you do.


Well, I guess we disagree on this now. I had almost same doubt beforehand which is why I did this at all.

I've convinced myself by tracing every fraction through the steps in the several examples already both for increases and decreases, done the math on it showing leveraged leverage does increase it, deriving expressions from it, and constantly get same leverage as result in all different ways. Several people in bitshares traders chat confirmed it from independent calculations. e.g. https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.20122017

I'm convinced and I will be pushing for this method to be automated and the main reason behind lending market.

yvv
legendary
Activity: 1344
Merit: 1000
.
You are confusing yourself. Details of how you short sell your investment do not matter. Look at the end result. If you invest X, maximum you can borrow with collateral ratio of 1.75 is 1.33*X. 1.33x is your leverage, and you can't exceed this ratio no matter what you do.
hero member
Activity: 570
Merit: 500
Quote
You lock up 1.75 bts in contract.

You get 1 bts worth of loan (e.g. bitUSD)

... which means that you invested 0.75 BTS (1.75-1) to short 1 BTS worth of asset, which makes your leverage equal 1/0.75=1.33.


(1.75-1) => yes 1.75 stays in contract, 1 bts worth of asset leaves, but also there's debt of 1 to get it out so combined still down 1.75

to short 1 BTS worth of asset => yes asset sold for 1 BTS is a short, but so is 1.75 bts you have  instead of 1.75 bts worth of asset

even holding 1.75 bts is already equivalent in gain/loss to 1x leverage short on bitUSD:bts

so you invest 1.75 BTS of total value (it's split into 1.75 bts locked, 1 bts money, -1 worth of asset debt = still 1.75 bts) to bitUSD: short 1 bts worth of asset + 1.75 bts worth of asset (locked in contract) = (1+1.75)/1.75=1.57

1.75 is used twice because your collateral is same coin as your position

I was confused too which is why I did the examples in that image that compared the net profit and loss, margin to spot, and confirmed they are magnified by 1.57x and one in steem article magnified by 1.98x

Concept of using same coin for collateral as the margin long is not new - poloniex allows max of 2.5x margin longs but people fund the collateral with same coin they are margin longing to get equivalent of 3.5x margin longs.

The new part is ability to use margin long as collateral for another margin long.

as for stacking

You start with just bitAsset of value B and you buy B worth of BTS with it. you have a specific ratio of BTS (B) to new bitAsset (A) you set, where B and A are value in same units. you decide collateral ratio  B/A = y (>=1.75). For margin position you have to sell bitAsset to buy equivalent amount (A) of BTS. so now your active position is A of BTS and B of locked BTS paid by B of locked BTS, leverage is (active position)/(investment) = (A + B)/B = (B/y + B)/B = 1/y+1 = (1+y)/y = leverage

now lets take a step further. You still have B'=B/y=A unlocked units of BTS. If you borrow bitAsset (A') by locking that BTS (B'), using same collateral ratio, you now have: B'/A'=(B/y)/A' = y . New bitAsset is sold to get A' worth of BTS.

So if we ignore the past: Your new smaller position is A' of new BTS, B' of new locked BTS and you locked additional B' to do that. so new leverage = (A' + B')/(B') = (B'/y+B')/(B') = 1/y+1 - totally right, same leverage

However, unlocked units of bts A were converted to locked units and new unlocked units of BTS, increasing the leverage on part of already leveraged margin. combined we have active position size of BTS: (locked B + locked B' + unlocked A') = B + B/y + B/(y^2), and still investment of B. so leverage = (1+1/y+1/y^2)

The bigger the ratio chosen, the less not locked position there is to increase the leverage on and thus effectiveness decreases

Expressions for leverage using collateral/debt ratio y will thus be:
leverage1 = (1 + y)/y
leverage2 = (leverage1 + y)/y = ((1+y)/y+y)/y
leverage3 = (leverage2 + y)/y = (((1+y)/y+y)/y+y)/y
leverage4 = (leverage3 + y)/y = ((((1+y)/y+y)/y+y)/y+y)/y
leverage5 = (leverage4 + y)/y = (((((1+y)/y+y)/y+y)/y+y)/y+y)/y
leverage6 = (leverage5 + y)/y = ((((((1+y)/y+y)/y+y)/y+y)/y+y)/y + y)/y

I was curious how far the price has to fall in % to liquidate you at various y



Seems adding more margin layers doesn't affect % price drop needed to liquidate position which is equal to (y-1.75)/y*100%

Adding more margin layers does increase the leverage which increases how much value you will be down in that liquidation

higher collateral ratio drops leverage and makes it harder to get liquidated

in example above using y=2 collateral ratio and 1.98x leverage, can only afford ~12% price drop before liquidation, this is due to pretty high maintenance margin being required at 1.75 ratio.


Simple 1.50x margin long also at ratio 2:1 but with only 12.5% drop allowed before liquidation
The same 1.50x margin long can be done with ratio of 3:1 with 41% drop tolerance by layering margin 5 times

That seems more usable.


p.s. if we do p2p lending markets, don't need to worry about high collateral ratios and let users decide, so setting y=1.1 collateral:debt ratio could give pretty great margin leverage:




yvv
legendary
Activity: 1344
Merit: 1000
.
Quote
You lock up 1.75 bts in contract.

You get 1 bts worth of loan (e.g. bitUSD)

... which means that you invested 0.75 BTS (1.75-1) to short 1 BTS worth of asset, which makes your leverage equal 1/0.75=1.33.

No matter what exactly you do: you may deposit 0.75 USD, buy BTS worth of 0.75 USD, short 0.75/1.75 bitUSD, add BTS to collateral, short more bitUSD, ..., repeat this infinite number of times; or you may deposit 1.75 USD, buy BTS worth of 1.75 USD, issue 1 bitUSD, convert it to USD and withdraw it back to your bank account. The end result is the same in both cases: you short 1 bitUSD, you have 1.75 USD worth of collateral locked, your investment is 0.75 USD => your leverage is 1/0.75=1.33x. Period.

Quote
Higher leverage is done by reborrowing bitUSD by using BTS, the BTS you have from buying it with previously borrowed bitUSD to repeat the steps.

No, this does not change your leverage. Leverage depends only on collateral ratio.
hero member
Activity: 570
Merit: 500

This is not true. Check your math. With 1.75x collateral you have only 1.33x leverage, which is not bad too, but not as good as 2x leverage.

In practice, your collateral should be larger than minimum, like 2x, and with 2x collateral you have no leverage, unfortunately.


Thanks for your comment. I want to make sure this is correct as well because I have an idea based on this, so highly interested.



My math is pretty simple:

For a single margin long step at 1.75x collateral (absolute extreme impossible case)

You lock up 1.75 bts in contract.

You get 1 bts worth of loan (e.g. bitUSD)

you buy 1 bts with your loan

now you have 2.75 bts big position by putting up 1.75 bts giving you 2.75/1.75 leverage or 1.57x



I substituted the numbers into my previously used examples with margin on left and spot on right. For both I observed changed in total worth in bitUSD for 2x increase and for 50% drop in price of BTS. For both increase and drop the leverage calculated (or rate of gain vs loss) was increased by 1.571x compared to spot.



For example the long on increase of price had net profit of 0.362 bitUSD for margin and net profit of 0.231 bitUSD for spot. 0.362/0.231 = 1.57.

Hope this makes sense.


Higher leverage is done by reborrowing bitUSD by using BTS, the BTS you have from buying it with previously borrowed bitUSD to repeat the steps. Kind of confusing, so could be automated to a degree.

To be honest little reason to go more than 2 steps.
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