Topic: Butterfly Labs Forced &quot;On Hold For Refund&quot; for all my Single SC orders - page 20. (Read 59168 times)

Quote from: centove on May 26, 2013, 08:48:54 AM

For example, if I sell you my car, and you pay me the price, then I cannot unilaterally change my mind, and simply give you back your money. I will also have to pay you all damages that you incurred from my failure to honour the contract.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract#Remedies_for_breach_of_contract and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breach_of_contract

No .. you sign a sales contract which specifies the price and the contract which details the terms of the sale.. usually the contract is binding upon two conditions 1) the money being paid 2) the car being taken. Both of which are considered binding separately and indivisibly . i.e. if you take the car you are required to pay the money or if you take the money you are going to take the car.

So .. if condition 1 is not met then condition 2 cannot be met either.. i.e. if you don't actually have the car in hand you can't be expected to hand over the money. To be even less blunt .. you can't demand possession of something just because you have the money in hand to pay for it.

You seem to be confusing the creation (conclusion) of a contract with its performance.

Contract is created by offer and acceptance, whether in writing or orally. Performance/delivery is an entirely different issue. A good starting point to understand contract law might be the Sales of Goods Act of any Canadian province, which mostly codifies the common law.

Here is another great explanation of how contracts work (take from http://www.bbb.org/canada/legal-contracts-/)

Quote

Legal - Contracts

The law of contracts is a vast subject area and is relevant to almost all areas of the law. A contract is an agreement between two or more parties which the courts may enforce. A binding contract must involve "offer and acceptance". They are legally binding once signed and cannot be cancelled unless there has been:

misrepresentation
fraud
duress
a clause that allows you to cancel
a mutual agreement to cancel

YipYip

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Quote from: Xian01 on May 26, 2013, 08:21:23 AM

Quote from: YipYip on May 26, 2013, 02:07:23 AM

The best thing that Xian can do is follow through with this complaint....!!

These frauds can threaten and pretend to MIS-REPRESENT the law but .... what they have done will cost them dearly !!!

It's out of my hands at the moment, and hoping to hear back from the FTC and Missouri AG sometime soon.

Based on information in this thread, I really should look into meeting with a consumer advocacy lawyer next week.

Then you'll have to decide how much this is worth to you. Oh you could find a lawyer to take the case (throw enough money at a lawyer and they will do it). Then you'll have to file and sue in the local jurisdiction (Kansas City, Mo IIRC) For at most a refund of the amount paid, which you already have. Before going in front of the judge to argue they will require that the two parties attempt to resolve it between themselves, and offer an arbitrator (Jude on TV is performing this function and turned it into a reality show). Again for the amount of the contract, implied or otherwise. Then in a year or two IF you manage to win, comes the fun of collecting said award.

I'd be really surprised if you hear back from either of those agencies within any reasonable time frame, and if it's other then a form letter that also will be surprising.

Also most seem to think that this is unprecedented that a company 'fires' an abusive customer. No it's not really that uncommon. Happens quite often actually. What has changed is the Internet gives voice to the minority that wants to bitch about it. http://sux.org|com|net Lotsa hits...

It is not a simple matter but it will not hurt to speak to someone to find out there opinion about it.... Also i think there are Fair Trade agency's (we have in australia maybe not in US) where it is against the law to do such things ..i.e you make a formal complaint

If he is just suing them for lost earnings then yes that is a mountain to climb etc

centove

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Quote from: Xian01 on May 26, 2013, 08:21:23 AM

Quote from: YipYip on May 26, 2013, 02:07:23 AM

The best thing that Xian can do is follow through with this complaint....!!

These frauds can threaten and pretend to MIS-REPRESENT the law but .... what they have done will cost them dearly !!!

It's out of my hands at the moment, and hoping to hear back from the FTC and Missouri AG sometime soon.

Based on information in this thread, I really should look into meeting with a consumer advocacy lawyer next week.

Then you'll have to decide how much this is worth to you. Oh you could find a lawyer to take the case (throw enough money at a lawyer and they will do it). Then you'll have to file and sue in the local jurisdiction (Kansas City, Mo IIRC) For at most a refund of the amount paid, which you already have. Before going in front of the judge to argue they will require that the two parties attempt to resolve it between themselves, and offer an arbitrator (Jude on TV is performing this function and turned it into a reality show). Again for the amount of the contract, implied or otherwise. Then in a year or two IF you manage to win, comes the fun of collecting said award.

I'd be really surprised if you hear back from either of those agencies within any reasonable time frame, and if it's other then a form letter that also will be surprising.

Also most seem to think that this is unprecedented that a company 'fires' an abusive customer. No it's not really that uncommon. Happens quite often actually. What has changed is the Internet gives voice to the minority that wants to bitch about it. http://sux.org|com|net Lotsa hits...

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Christian Antkow

Quote from: YipYip on May 26, 2013, 02:07:23 AM

The best thing that Xian can do is follow through with this complaint....!!

These frauds can threaten and pretend to MIS-REPRESENT the law but .... what they have done will cost them dearly !!!

It's out of my hands at the moment, and hoping to hear back from the FTC and Missouri AG sometime soon.

Based on information in this thread, I really should look into meeting with a consumer advocacy lawyer next week.

centove

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Quote from: int03h on May 25, 2013, 08:06:57 PM

Quote from: PuertoLibre on May 25, 2013, 08:05:21 PM

Quote from: Endlessa on May 25, 2013, 08:03:37 PM

seriously the nature of argument doesn't have to adversarial

It isn't my friend. You just make it turn out that way.

Almost all the interactions I have had with you were on the basis of practices employed and ethics. Personal didn't enter into it until private information was posted. Guess by who?

By me PL .. and I am not who you think I am ..

dig deep .. you will find the answer..

Are you Spartacus?

Phinnaeus Gage

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You know why it's been quiet lately?

It's SockPuppet Hour at some Kansas City pub.

YipYip

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Quote from: k9quaint on May 26, 2013, 01:53:31 AM

Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on May 26, 2013, 01:41:49 AM

Josh's Tourette's syndrome is kicking into high gear.

I think Josh might have realized what a blunder it was to unilaterally cancel the contract with Xian. That contract was a forward contract that has appreciated in value (5x the value by some claims) and Xian was only compensated for the face value of the forward contract. The damages would be the difference between the face value and the current market value of the forward contract (roughly $20,000 by some estimates). Xian might also get to subpoena Butterfly's financial records and depose their corporate officers which might yield a ton of juicy tidbits for analysis.

Any judge would take this case.

Xian owes nottm28 a debt of gratitude for pointing out how much more valuable that contract is now.

Sorry just dropped in to see how Josh's sockpuppet army are going

The best thing that Xian can do is follow through with this complaint....!!

These frauds can threaten and pretend to MIS-REPRESENT the law but .... what they have done will cost them dearly !!!

The moment they started believeing in their own bullshit and self importance is where they have made the gravest of mistakes...

As pointed out this error will cost them dearly .. this is the ultimate remedy to these behaviors.....all the posturing and hot air will be for naught... when u get fined for 100k-200k for bad busness practice is the slow but eventual method that keeps our system honest from the frauds that are BFL

So Jody keep cancelling orders .. keep doing that and see what this ego tripping exercise returns to you ..

BIG FUCKING LIES I hope will last long enough for Xian to see his reward for speaking up and stating

"I do not accept this treatment"

As is every right of every customer being mis-handled by people who think they have the upper hand and cash of the ordinary customer

Phinnaeus Gage

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"Josh, you coming to bed?"

"How many times do I have tell you, cocksucker, that I'm not J...? Oops! Sorry, dear."

"No problem, dear. At least you got the cocksucker part right--for once. Tell Luke Jr. I said hey. And don't forget to walk the poodle."

Quick aside: Can you imagine Josh walking that rainbow colored poodle in his neighborhood. Grin

I bet the neighbors talk.

Bicknellski

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Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on May 26, 2013, 01:41:49 AM

Quote from: int03h on May 26, 2013, 01:03:24 AM

Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on May 26, 2013, 01:41:49 AM

I am afraid you are incorrect. Contracts of sale cannot be unilaterally cancelled unless the contract explicitly allows for doing so.

Just imagine that we agree today that I would deliver you 10 bushels of wheat in 3 months for a given price. If 2 months later the price goes up, I cannot unilaterally cancel the contract and give you a refund.

As for damages, one can calculate the earning capabilities of the item that was ordered, and one can seek compensation for a reasonable period (few years) of use. It would be several thousand dollars at the very least.

What you've described is in fact a very specific type of sales contract usually called a "forward contract" - If the buyer could produce such a contact then there would be a legitimate case for damages incurred. However, never was any such contract offered by BFL... so I doubt the OP has such.

I respectfully disagree with what you say. What is special about a "forward contract" is that the delivery may be well in the future, and in most cases so is the payment.

In the case of BFL, they accepted payment now, and promise to deliver. Failure to deliver on time (or within reasonable time) is a breach of contract.

For example, if I sell you my car, and you pay me the price, then I cannot unilaterally change my mind, and simply give you back your money. I will also have to pay you all damages that you incurred from my failure to honour the contract.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract#Remedies_for_breach_of_contract and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breach_of_contract

No .. you sign a sales contract which specifies the price and the contract which details the terms of the sale.. usually the contract is binding upon two conditions 1) the money being paid 2) the car being taken. Both of which are considered binding separately and indivisibly . i.e. if you take the car you are required to pay the money or if you take the money you are going to take the car.

So .. if condition 1 is not met then condition 2 cannot be met either.. i.e. if you don't actually have the car in hand you can't be expected to hand over the money. To be even less blunt .. you can't demand possession of something just because you have the money in hand to pay for it.

Logic is funny mother fucker .. it works both ways .. somehow.. bastard

Josh's Tourette's syndrome is kicking into high gear.

k9quaint

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Josh's Tourette's syndrome is kicking into high gear.

I think Josh might have realized what a blunder it was to unilaterally cancel the contract with Xian. That contract was a forward contract that has appreciated in value (5x the value by some claims) and Xian was only compensated for the face value of the forward contract. The damages would be the difference between the face value and the current market value of the forward contract (roughly $20,000 by some estimates). Xian might also get to subpoena Butterfly's financial records and depose their corporate officers which might yield a ton of juicy tidbits for analysis.

Any judge would take this case.

Xian owes nottm28 a debt of gratitude for pointing out how much more valuable that contract is now.

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Quote from: int03h on May 26, 2013, 01:03:24 AM

Quote from: creativex on May 25, 2013, 10:08:38 PM

I am afraid you are incorrect. Contracts of sale cannot be unilaterally cancelled unless the contract explicitly allows for doing so.

Just imagine that we agree today that I would deliver you 10 bushels of wheat in 3 months for a given price. If 2 months later the price goes up, I cannot unilaterally cancel the contract and give you a refund.

As for damages, one can calculate the earning capabilities of the item that was ordered, and one can seek compensation for a reasonable period (few years) of use. It would be several thousand dollars at the very least.

What you've described is in fact a very specific type of sales contract usually called a "forward contract" - If the buyer could produce such a contact then there would be a legitimate case for damages incurred. However, never was any such contract offered by BFL... so I doubt the OP has such.

I respectfully disagree with what you say. What is special about a "forward contract" is that the delivery may be well in the future, and in most cases so is the payment.

In the case of BFL, they accepted payment now, and promise to deliver. Failure to deliver on time (or within reasonable time) is a breach of contract.

For example, if I sell you my car, and you pay me the price, then I cannot unilaterally change my mind, and simply give you back your money. I will also have to pay you all damages that you incurred from my failure to honour the contract.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract#Remedies_for_breach_of_contract and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breach_of_contract

No .. you sign a sales contract which specifies the price and the contract which details the terms of the sale.. usually the contract is binding upon two conditions 1) the money being paid 2) the car being taken. Both of which are considered binding separately and indivisibly . i.e. if you take the car you are required to pay the money or if you take the money you are going to take the car.

So .. if condition 1 is not met then condition 2 cannot be met either.. i.e. if you don't actually have the car in hand you can't be expected to hand over the money. To be even less blunt .. you can't demand possession of something just because you have the money in hand to pay for it.

Logic is funny mother fucker .. it works both ways .. somehow.. bastard

Josh's Tourette's syndrome is kicking into high gear.

Bicknellski

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Quote from: int03h on May 25, 2013, 09:41:07 PM

Quote from: creativex on May 25, 2013, 09:38:21 PM

Sorry Xian, it seems your thread has been taken over by the sockpuppet army. Roll Eyes

Sock puppets.. not real people .. he is the victim.. Okey Dokey.

There are many victims of Sonny Vleisides and his merry band of crooks. BFL is just now managing to ship a few Jalapeno v0.5's to people that ordered in June of 2012, despite the numerous assurance that BFL had honest abe "scheduled shipments" several times over the past 11 months. The lies are too numerous to count.

None of these newbie accounts defending BFL are even old enough to have been created back when BFL's COO Inblahblah was attacking Tom of BTCFPGA for being too vague about his power specs and insisting that BFL's were solid. Specs that were obviously never measured as BFL had zero chips, by their own admission. That, like nearly everything else Josh Zerlan says turned out to not be true. That supposedly solid power spec of 1w/Gh/s was just more fairy dust nonsense designed to suck the life out of BFL's legitimate competition and trap pre-order funds into a constantly evolving pyramid scam of orders.

Tom has a scammer tag for failure to deliver & deceit, Josh's is long long overdue.

Yifu Guo says:

And the rest of the forum adds:

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Quote from: k9quaint on May 26, 2013, 01:17:24 AM

Quote from: Endlessa on May 25, 2013, 07:48:10 PM

um dumb ass you said he had a case base on implied contract.

Implied warranty specifically. He does.

.. and then you said yeah that's not true in my next post.

No, then you started talking about Missouri state laws and I posted the relevant consumer protection act provisions which BFL is also clearly in violation of.

Quote from: Endlessa on May 25, 2013, 07:48:10 PM

. .after you put me in the position to create the fact based argument for you.. .. not only were you wrong, but you were lazy (I'm apparently your personal wikipedia), so no you don't get to say your had it right all along. . .. .like I told you before. .or at least the thread.. .. .look up "Duke Nukem'' receipt on google.. . . .and in true xian repetitive fashion.. .eat a bag of dicks

You didn't supply any facts, only some vague reference to the UCC.

Also, you still don't have an example of a major retailer who charges full price for pre-orders eh? The duke nukem pre-orders were deposits, not full charges (the CC companies would have charged them back after 30 days otherwise). So you default on all arguments. You fell apart rapidly when faced with facts and resorted to angry insults hurled at me.

More interesting however is this:
When you got really angry at me, you started separating phraselets with 2-5 dots. I checked his post history and int30h places 2-5 dots between his phraselets as well. Nobody else in this thread does that. In fact, it is not a punctuation form at all. More of a typing tic. Very unusual. Did you let something slip while you were angry?

Edit: And every single post by int30h that was not in the newbie forum is in this thread. All but 4 of Endlessa's posts that are not in the newbie forum are posts in this thead as well. And when I started making fun of int30h, Endlessa got furious with me and stopped his discussion and switched to insults. Obvious sockpuppet is obvious?

Yup.... their new "campaign" to be better in customer relations seems to have hit another snag especially when they continually propagate accounts that are pretty transparent shills for BFL. Sad.

k9quaint

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um dumb ass you said he had a case base on implied contract.

Implied warranty specifically. He does.

.. and then you said yeah that's not true in my next post.

No, then you started talking about Missouri state laws and I posted the relevant consumer protection act provisions which BFL is also clearly in violation of.

. .after you put me in the position to create the fact based argument for you.. .. not only were you wrong, but you were lazy (I'm apparently your personal wikipedia), so no you don't get to say your had it right all along. . .. .like I told you before. .or at least the thread.. .. .look up "Duke Nukem'' receipt on google.. . . .and in true xian repetitive fashion.. .eat a bag of dicks

You didn't supply any facts, only some vague reference to the UCC.

Also, you still don't have an example of a major retailer who charges full price for pre-orders eh? The duke nukem pre-orders were deposits, not full charges (the CC companies would have charged them back after 30 days otherwise). So you default on all arguments. You fell apart rapidly when faced with facts and resorted to angry insults hurled at me.

More interesting however is this:
When you got really angry at me, you started separating phraselets with 2-5 dots. I checked his post history and int30h places 2-5 dots between his phraselets as well. Nobody else in this thread does that. In fact, it is not a punctuation form at all. More of a typing tic. Very unusual. Did you let something slip while you were angry?

Edit: And every single post by int30h that was not in the newbie forum is in this thread. All but 4 of Endlessa's posts that are not in the newbie forum are posts in this thead as well. And when I started making fun of int30h, Endlessa got furious with me and stopped his discussion and switched to insults. Obvious sockpuppet is obvious?

int03h

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I am afraid you are incorrect. Contracts of sale cannot be unilaterally cancelled unless the contract explicitly allows for doing so.

Just imagine that we agree today that I would deliver you 10 bushels of wheat in 3 months for a given price. If 2 months later the price goes up, I cannot unilaterally cancel the contract and give you a refund.

As for damages, one can calculate the earning capabilities of the item that was ordered, and one can seek compensation for a reasonable period (few years) of use. It would be several thousand dollars at the very least.

What you've described is in fact a very specific type of sales contract usually called a "forward contract" - If the buyer could produce such a contact then there would be a legitimate case for damages incurred. However, never was any such contract offered by BFL... so I doubt the OP has such.

I respectfully disagree with what you say. What is special about a "forward contract" is that the delivery may be well in the future, and in most cases so is the payment.

In the case of BFL, they accepted payment now, and promise to deliver. Failure to deliver on time (or within reasonable time) is a breach of contract.

For example, if I sell you my car, and you pay me the price, then I cannot unilaterally change my mind, and simply give you back your money. I will also have to pay you all damages that you incurred from my failure to honour the contract.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract#Remedies_for_breach_of_contract and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breach_of_contract

No .. you sign a sales contract which specifies the price and the contract which details the terms of the sale.. usually the contract is binding upon two conditions 1) the money being paid 2) the car being taken. Both of which are considered binding separately and indivisibly . i.e. if you take the car you are required to pay the money or if you take the money you are going to take the car.

So .. if condition 1 is not met then condition 2 cannot be met either.. i.e. if you don't actually have the car in hand you can't be expected to hand over the money. To be even less blunt .. you can't demand possession of something just because you have the money in hand to pay for it.

Logic is funny mother fucker .. it works both ways .. somehow.. bastard

k9quaint

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Quote from: Xian01 on May 25, 2013, 11:32:32 PM

I am afraid you are incorrect. Contracts of sale cannot be unilaterally cancelled unless the contract explicitly allows for doing so.

Just imagine that we agree today that I would deliver you 10 bushels of wheat in 3 months for a given price. If 2 months later the price goes up, I cannot unilaterally cancel the contract and give you a refund.

As for damages, one can calculate the earning capabilities of the item that was ordered, and one can seek compensation for a reasonable period (few years) of use. It would be several thousand dollars at the very least.

What you've described is in fact a very specific type of sales contract usually called a "forward contract" - If the buyer could produce such a contact then there would be a legitimate case for damages incurred. However, never was any such contract offered by BFL... so I doubt the OP has such.

I respectfully disagree with what you say. What is special about a "forward contract" is that the delivery may be well in the future, and in most cases so is the payment.

In the case of BFL, they accepted payment now, and promise to deliver. Failure to deliver on time (or within reasonable time) is a breach of contract.

For example, if I sell you my car, and you pay me the price, then I cannot unilaterally change my mind, and simply give you back your money. I will also have to pay you all damages that you incurred from my failure to honour the contract.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract#Remedies_for_breach_of_contract and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breach_of_contract

I step away from the thread for some poker and it asplodes. So much fun. Cheesy

The sale of goods that do not yet exist is a future or forward contract. All future contracts have time value.
Earlier in the thread the claim was made by some BFL proponents that Xian's contract could have been sold for 5x what he paid for it. When BFL canceled it without recourse they caused $20,000 damages to Xian. He could take them to court on that basis alone.
Misrepresentations about the state of the product + damages + Consumer Protection laws = Judge hearing the case.

int03h

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Quote from: drlukacs on May 25, 2013, 11:15:24 PM

Quote from: Xian01 on May 25, 2013, 10:52:58 PM

Quote from: drlukacs on May 25, 2013, 10:41:31 PM

You are quite right, but one thing: A seller cannot cancel a contract of sale unilaterally. Such an action has very serious legal consequences, and if the reason for doing so is malicious (i.e., to retaliate for negative comments made on a forum), then I could easily see punitive damages being awarded in top of compensatory ones.

Hopefully the FTC and Missouri AG see it that way as well.

What about small claims court?

Not sure it's worth the hassle. Just glad to be done with Butterfly Labs as a customer to be honest. Will support other companies in Bitcoinia instead.

You should try Judge Judy .. she hears all sorts of bullshit based on half contrived cock and ass bullshit..

Did you fuck you car in the process of being a moron ?? SOLD .. Wed Afternoon at 2pm .. lets see how this pans out ..

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l0tt0.com

I am afraid you are incorrect. Contracts of sale cannot be unilaterally cancelled unless the contract explicitly allows for doing so.

Just imagine that we agree today that I would deliver you 10 bushels of wheat in 3 months for a given price. If 2 months later the price goes up, I cannot unilaterally cancel the contract and give you a refund.

As for damages, one can calculate the earning capabilities of the item that was ordered, and one can seek compensation for a reasonable period (few years) of use. It would be several thousand dollars at the very least.

What you've described is in fact a very specific type of sales contract usually called a "forward contract" - If the buyer could produce such a contact then there would be a legitimate case for damages incurred. However, never was any such contract offered by BFL... so I doubt the OP has such.

I respectfully disagree with what you say. What is special about a "forward contract" is that the delivery may be well in the future, and in most cases so is the payment.

In the case of BFL, they accepted payment now, and promise to deliver. Failure to deliver on time (or within reasonable time) is a breach of contract.

For example, if I sell you my car, and you pay me the price, then I cannot unilaterally change my mind, and simply give you back your money. I will also have to pay you all damages that you incurred from my failure to honour the contract.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract#Remedies_for_breach_of_contract and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breach_of_contract

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