Topic: Butterfly Labs Forced "On Hold For Refund" for all my Single SC orders - page 6. (Read 59168 times)

People who live in places that have dysfunctional police departments tend to hate all police.

Technically, it's not a felony to tell a cop to get bent. But he/she/it can and will make something up (usually "resisting arrest" even where there was neither resistance nor arrest) and will be believed one thousand percent by the Infernal Repairs department. And he can/will beat the shit out of you and get away with it.

My dislike for all police is simple enough. I could just cite 44 years of living in a crumbling Empire, but I'll be more specific. I dislike criminal gangs, regardless of WHAT mafia they belong to. Anyone who still thinks that police are there to protect anyone BUT governments and their favored subjects (i.e. NOT the commoners) either needs to get off the happy pills or get out more. I have no real fear of other gangs, as I've no intention of stepping on their turf. But cops are just about always looking for trouble, so as to exacerbate it. They are above the law in all but a few "throw the people a bone" cases. They routinely get away with murder (as documented daily) and they make boastful claims about how dangerous their jobs are.

I could go on for pages citing chapter and verse, but instead I'll leave you with a name to google. William Norman Grigg.

Only "elected" officials get my ire more than cops. It's an immoral profession.

If people can't figure it out after 5 hours on the forums, they deserve to lose their money.

BTC requires a large amount of personal responsibility.  You cannot undo BTC that has been sent.  This requires due diligence. 

If people refuse to do so, I refuse to spend even .1 BTC to make a vain attempt to protect them -- I cannot do so.  '

ONLY YOU CAN PROTECT YOUR BTC!

Sorry if I missed a post before this, but I'm taking it at face value (so if I come out looking like a fool, so be it, it wouldn't be the first time  ).  Are you suggesting that it's a felony to swear at a police officer (which it's not)?  Also I don't get where the dislike for all police comes from.  I know I'm probably missing something here but I had to post this anyway just in case.

There is already such an ad going (lol right alongside BFL's own ad).  I don't know who is financing it but it exists.  I know at one point there was a petition to not even allow BFL to advertise, but I assume that failed since I still see their ads.

I don't think we actually disagree on this point. I think the American legal system is broken beyond repair, if it were any good to begin with.

My problem with the whole scenario (and it's been less you than a lot of other LOUD voices) is the sheer hysteria. BFL is hardly the first company to shill a product they didn't have, nor will they be the last. A degree of warning is warranted. The soapbox may even be warranted. The "every startup is going to be like BFL" thing going on is not warranted. Again, that's really not aimed at you. Most of my exposure to your posts has been in the Klondike thread. Your level of knowledge on modern electronics is way beyond mine, but you explain it well enough that I'm not totally lost 30 years ago, it was easy for me. Now, it's gotten so complex for even "simple" things that I have a hard time keeping up. BKKCoins loses me every other paragraph, but it's fun to try.

Anyway, my basic take on BFL, at this point, is whether or not they had good intentions they are no longer a viable option. Which sucks, given the prices they're touting. But given that 28nm is being heavily researched and Avalon is about to ship (which they've demonstrated the ability to do) and ASICMiner is already delivering, I just don't see BFL ever catching up. I'd like to be wrong, again given their prices, but if I ever did buy from them it would have to be in person. Which is a long trip both from where I am and where I'm moving to.

The best option for those who've already thrown money at 'em, as I see it, is a refund. The next best would be a hostile takeover (which I suspect a lot of you purchasers out there could arrange) by people who are dedicated to getting to market. They have demonstrated that the product exists.

Sorry to chop off your quote there, but I just wanted to address the meat of the issue  .  I'm sure they had the best of intentions (from a business standpoint, I cannot see why they wouldn't want to deliver their products on time and continue to make money as well as a good name for themselves), however we as consumers/end users only have reality to go based on (which as you implied nell - sorry if you don't like that nickname I won't use it again - doesn't really matter in the least).  From what I've heard of BFL from people who used their FPGA services, it was a mostly positive experience all-around (aside from the fact that some people had trouble getting replacement fans in a timely manner).  Of course there could have been many bad transactions/communications from that time that I'm unaware of, but it's interesting (well that's one word) to see how they are choosing to react when there is mass chaos occurring.

I would really love to hear from an insider at BFL who had too much or quit for unrelated reasons.  I don't know if at some point, certain members have had to sign clauses preventing them from doing so, but a decent-sized post on how daily-life is within BFL and what is said, what ideas/plans came into effect at different times, that would just be extremely interesting to me.  As far as Biomech bringing up legal matters with respect to people who haven't paid for a product but are considering it, that could be due to the fact that there just aren't a lot of places to turn and some people might want to take the risk.  I'm not sure, that's just my best guess.  It's unfortunate that the big names in ASIC Bitcoin hardware are companies like BFL, who as of right now are not shipping out very many units (some days zero), Avalon, which if you can afford the product, they have publicly made it clear that they really have no interest in production - although they dragged their heels at least everything is open-source now and ASICMiner, a group that I actually really like and respect, but to no fault of their own haven't positioned themselves in the home user market (lol and who can blame them).  Right now my suggestion to people would be to play around with existing hardware and different alt-coins and wait for ASICMiner to announce products (I believe they said they were going into that direction later in the year, with the Block Erupters being kind of like a trial run to gauge interest).  Also ASIC chips designed for Bitcoin mining are officially on the loose and I know a few creative members are coming up with designs that will make use of them.  We can only hope for the best (or do it ourselves =).

i agree, perhaps everyone could chip in o.x bit coins to place an ad on bitcoin talk warning people not to buy BFL products, i sure as hell would,

Let me be clear about this point it doesn't matter what their intentions are or were they simply lack integrity.

Personally I don't have an opinion on BFL in terms of their intent I could careless because what mattered was or what matters now is for them to get units in the hands of their customers without any further delay or subterfuge and unfortunately with every declaration they keep on showing they lack integrity.

I agree with your assessment Biomech and that of the many others who have voiced outrage and concern as consumers. What I disagree with, which is only a minor point really, is that anyone needs to even think about legal matters to make an informed decision with regards to dealing with BFL in the present moment. As a consumer if you are still holding out hope for BFL to deliver on their promises you are simply not aware of what is going on and I think it is important and right for the community to clarify and help everyone learn what BFL has promised and failed to deliver and to point out every inconsistency from BFL. Simply they are not trustworthy and the consumer should make any decision from here on out based on that fact. Do not trust them to fulfill their promises as there is clearly ample evidence from their own statements they are incapable of delivering as promised. Sort of a dead horse but with the shills and multiple accounts from BFL we as a community need to stand up and defend newer community members from BFL at this point. No one should be ordering BFL units at this point given the market it would not be economically sound.

Somehow this reminded me of the funniest episode ever of Whose Line is it Anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTxkxG3DF4k

This is a low blow from the company, how can anyone get away with that? Josh is obviously thinking with his knee instead of his head!

I sure as hell ain't gonna throw money at em. My only point, I guess, was that using anything the us court system says as a moral argument is a guaranteed loser, since they are by far the most immoral sons of bitches on the planet. Even if BFL was started with the intent to scam and nothing else, it's still amateur hour when compared to the people who "protect" us.

In the end, I think they've sunk their company even if the product is real. About the best they (and customers) can hope for is a buyout by some other entity at this point. They are not going to resolve their production issues. From your POV, I assume you think they never intended to. From mine, I think they did, at least at one point, but having dropped their collective genitalia in a meat grinder, they are to lazy or too stubborn to hang it up. By the time they clean house and start shipping in any real fashion, Avalon chips will be all over the place, and there are at least a couple in the background developing 28nm ASICS, which I think will bring the price down and performance up to levels that BFL couldn't compete with if they WERE a professional organization.

But hey, I could be wrong. Luckily, I "missed out" on the chance for an early pre order, and there won't be a late one.

I don't believe BFL won't deliver, at least for their sake I hope not. I doubt they will deliver in time to be of any real benefit they promised their pre-order customers. There is no hostility on my part aside that directed to poor non-investigative journalism that they have frittered freebies upon instead of rewarding their paying and patient customers. I know what reality appears means, I wrote it.

Avalon are not getting out of the business because the risks are high, but because the team prefer development and are admittedly flakey when it comes to manufacture which they find boring. See Yifu's Bitcoin 2013 speech.

You do realise that time is not static. Saying "the reality appears" is a statement of opinion not of fact.

If you take the view that nothing WILL be delivered by BFL that is an opinion. Not a statement of fact.

Saying Avalon is awesome sauce is clearly an opinion. They have not delivered on all their commitments either.

I wish all the DIY'er good luck with that .. there is a reason Avalon is getting out of the business - because the risks are to high.

It is interesting when someone delivers something worthwhile.

Why all the hostility is my question ?

Unfortunately, the reality appears to be this above comment is spot on.

There is no questioning they have been knowingly deceptive be it for competitive reasons or fraud. I wish it wasn't the case, but they have buried themselves in their own words in black and white in this forum and their own. They have then put public relations and media contacts ahead of their own customers even when it wasn't a prior arrangement.

There was absolutely no need to do this.

All we discovered was that these supposed 'journalists' knew nothing aout Bitcoin or mining, but believe they are authorities on the subject. Customers receiving working units would have been just as big a story and featured in the media regardless.

Why? Because it's just, if not moreso newsworthy. Avalon didn't have to give away freebies and still got more attention.

Why? Because they delivered sh*t that worked. If someone else brings a new miner to the table tomorrow they will still get all the publicity they need for free without giving away kit to clueless journalists who do no investigative research.

Why? Because it's newsworthy that customers are receiving working units in this new Bitcoin mining era.  Watch what happens when the first DIYers succeed. Will be all over the relevant tech publications.

Why? Because it's f***ing interesting when someone achieves something worthwhile...

If we are talking about morality we know for certain BFL is wanting in that area and as I said that is a basic human attribute acquired between 6 and 18 years of age. Needn't get into the legality of what they are doing all one needs to do is look at they veracity of their statements. Then their willingness to ignore those inconsistencies and continue to make what are obviously false statements. If a 6 year old can be a stand up human being and have an understanding of basic morality then why can't BFL? No real debate there, is there? BFL lacks integrity and a moral base from which to have a trusting relationship with this community. One should easily surmise that doing business with them is most likely going to result in more of their promises being broken, so get out now while you can is the right mantra for every BFL thread nothing less would be disingenuous at best.

ayYayYai!

I tried to wade through all that. You guys are funny as a three legged rabbit!

BFL?

I don't know what to think about them. It do look criminal.

On the other hand, there is an old gem of a statement that very well might apply.

Never attribute to conspiracy that which can be readily explained by stupidity.

PR is certainly not their strong point.

Without getting into all of the cases, though, I have to say that being convicted of anything at all by the USDOJ is not in itself proof that you did it, or to the degree that they claim. They both conspire AND are stupid. Not to mention as close to Acton's level of corruption as you can possibly get. Never trust the word of people with zero legal accountability.

And you can be a felon for mouthing off to a cop. Which ALL cops deserve. Yes, I know that is not directly relevant to this case. I'm just sayin' that in the modern Imperial court, Felon don't mean much, morally speaking.

Agreed ++

Is this not what all the fuss is about !!!!

It to a degree is not what has happened in regards to delays etc etc

But it all revolves around the totally fraudulent (at worse) or  (corrupt at best )  business practices ...in the way BFL have gone about this whole PRE-ORDER process

The lies and deceptions are worthy of a SPY novel but sadly are just corrupt individuals preying upon others and using 419/Scammer/PONZI  tatics at every turn of play

The idea that any of these people involved @ BFL could or would tell the truth about a situation is just a plain nonsense..and those that continue to defend them with your profanity and personal attacks really makes me wonder, why they are doing this, apart from trying to fill there lifes with some form of meaning.... as if there is something missing inside of them..

No rational person when presented with all the facts of this saga would not come to the same conclusion as many have that BFL are a morally bankrupt organisation and the likelihood of them running off with everybody's money is extremely high......

When I see 6 - 9 year olds with more integrity than BFL employees what is the point about being 16 or 40? When you lack the basic morality all humans can attain, except perhaps a small minority who are devoid of that ability, what does it matter how old your are? In fact it is clear that children and adolescents fixate on what is moral, fair and ethical as backed up with 100+ years of observations in Montessori schools. This is normal human development and it seems quite clear that some members of the BFL organization have had their normal development sidetracked possibly because of a less than ideal environment in their formative years. Sad really, if only they had developed normally many thousands of people would not be upset.  

http://faculty.plts.edu/gpence/html/kohlberg.htm

http://international-montessori.org/moraldevelopment.htm

Is that all u have..personal attacks .. I win

Thanks for playing