Topic: Butterfly Labs refusing refunds? - page 4. (Read 5346 times)

I have filed for a refund and paid for it via Paypal and within 45 days. Hopefully , Paypal do their job as promise.

I am just going to remove all my card details from paypal and then initiate a charge back through HSBC.

I have no issue with doing battle with Paypal - the fault lies with Paypal for not evaluating the business that they approved to accept Paypal payments - maybe their risk assessment team should have considered that they did not actually have a working product to sell before giving them a Paypal business account.

All that did was give BFL an air of authenticity and probably increased the number of orders that were made. So in essence Paypal have actually made the problem worse. I would not have placed an order if I could not pay by paypal or credit card and I am sure there are numerous other people who felt the same.

Paypal can block my account all they want.  But I have a funny feeling over the next couple of weeks the number of people looking for a refund is going to grow exponentially and Paypal will have significant sums charged back - this will then force them to confront BFL.

If BFL can still not give a delivery date at this point they will not have a leg to stand on and that is if they do not disappear overnight first.

Lets look at the facts - why would they not refund if their accounts are in a healthy state and they have a huge backlog of orders that they are "struggling" to fill. It would be in their interest to clear the backlog as quickly as possible. People cancelling orders would help them do this and enable them to ship products quicker to people that actually want them.

I don't think they have the money to refund the orders.

BFL should probably add to the terms and conditions "All sales are final unless you initiate a charge back through your credit card provider and then you will get your money back"

Read the entire rule, if a company sells a product they must provide a DEFINITIVE shipping date (if no is provided it defaults to 30 days), last I saw there site said 2 months or more.  This is very unlikely to be considered definitive.  It is not relevant what they say in the contract if they do not comply with regulations.  Simply making a customer agree to something that is against regulations will not relieve BFL of complying with those regulations.

I removed the word stock and it does not change the statement at all basically.

Your throwing out or chasing a red herring.  Let me quote two relevant sections of the FTC mail order rule.

Here the FTC states IMO quite clearly that a consumer has the right to cancel and order by exercising ANY option BEFORE the product ships and the company MUST provide a prompt refund. 

When You Must Cancel an Order

You must cancel an order and provide a prompt refund when:
•the customer exercises any option to cancel before you ship the merchandise;

This is a pretty blanket statement by the FTC and I don't see how BFL can refuse a customer a refund for any reason.

Next let's assume for the moment BFL sent out information and received every customers consent for an infinite delay.  According to the FTC one of the pieces of information that is required to be sent from BFL to the client is the following:

What Later Notices Must Say

If you cannot ship the merchandise by the definite revised shipment date included in your most recent delay option notice, before that date you must seek the consent of your customers to any further delay. You must do this by providing customers a "renewed" delay option notice. A renewed delay option notice is similar in many ways to the first delay option notice. One important difference: the customer’s silence may not be treated as a consent to delay.

A renewed delay option notice must include:
•a new definite revised shipment date or, if unknown, a statement that you are unable to provide any date;
•a statement that, if the customer chooses not to wait, the customer can cancel the order immediately and obtain a full and prompt refund;
•a statement that, unless you receive notice that the customer agrees to wait beyond the most recent definite revised shipment date and you have not shipped by then, the customer’s order automatically will be cancelled and a prompt refund will be provided; and
•some means for the customer to inform you at your expense (e.g., by providing a postage prepaid reply card or toll-free telephone number) whether the customer agrees to the delay or is canceling the order.
•the following information when you cannot provide a new definite revised shipping date:
•the reason for the delay, and
•a statement that, if the customer agrees to the indefinite delay, the customer may cancel the order any time until you ship.

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

Sorry, could you quote me a full line from the section you're referring to?  These are the only two instances of the word "stock" in the whole document:
"in-stock items ship immediately," unless you tell consumer when they order that the item is not in stock, you will be required to ship, provide notification of delay, or cancel the order immediately.

Very interesting. I have never done business with them but anyone who has purchased from this scammer should file a complaint with the FTC.

+1. Consumer protection laws cannot just be 'waived' because the company puts some ridiculous policy in place.

Read the entire rule, if a company sells a product that is not in stock they must provide a DEFINITIVE shipping date (if no is provided it defaults to 30 days), last I saw there site said 2 months or more.  This is very unlikely to be considered definitive.  It is not relevant what they say in the contract if they do not comply with regulations.  Simply making a customer agree to something that is against regulations will not relieve BFL of complying with those regulations.

I pointed out both of those in my initial post and I don't see where you have made an argument that those two points don't apply.

ftfy

and the sage continues.....

I haven't read the BFL contract, but i'm sure they've circumvented this (30-day rule) by explicitly stating that shipping within 30 days is not guaranteed. 

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule


Edit: sorry I didn't see that flying hellfish above this post, posted the same thing.

Getting a customer to agree to something that is against federal regulations will not relieve BFL of complying with those regulations LDO.

When a company offers a product for sale that is not in stock they must provide a definitive shipping date, I doubt many people think 2 months OR more is definitive.

When the first delivery date is missed a new revised definitive delivery date must be given along with a reason for the delay.  They must also obtain the customers approval for the first delay and EACH delay after (which they must also supply a definitive date and reason for).  If they do not provide this info or obtain the customers consent they actually must refund the customer.

The company must also cancel an order and issue a refund if the customer exercises any option to cancel the order BEFORE the product ships.

In order for a sale to take place a person must pay for and receive a product (or service), until the customer receives his product (or it ships) a sale has not taken place and hence why it is called an order and not a sale yet, hence all sales are final in this situation is not applicable.   Typically All Sales are Final refers to once a customer receives the product that they are then not able to return the product for a refund (after the sale has taken place).

This is all my interpretation of what I have researched IANAL.

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule


https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bfl-bf-labs-inc-butterfly-labs-officially-refusing-to-refund-their-customers-250985


File a complaint with the FTC. 

This is fair if you expected delivery in several months. Something most people ordering now should expect or have been told.

Only the people who ordered months ago and were continually promised "soon" have any grounds for a refund.

i asked for a refund a couple days ago. no response. i did file a paypal complaint and just waiting on that now. its been in dispute for the last 3 days. no response from bfl yet. wha ta terrible piece of crap company. i cant believe they are still taking NEW ORDERS. wtf.

Looks like everyone is getting BFL'd

You might want to let Paypal know that if they have no intention of dealing with it that you're left with no alternative than to contact your credit card company.

You should be aware there's a strong possibility they'll suspend your Paypal account permanently.

Just to add - I contacted paypal

And they do not want to know here is the relevant information from the email


The only reason I did not cancel in the 45 days is because BFL sent this email dated the 1st of May 2013


Now onto my credit card company HSBC - it will be interesting to see what they say.

Other than that I am not sure what course of action I can take.

Either way I have been royally "raped" and then left in a ditch.

I asked for a refund and was refused here is a copy of the email for your amusement.

I am going to challenge paypal even though it has passed the 45 days because according to their terms you can not take money for products that they do not have to sell.

So I will see what happens - not holding my breath though

'Merica.....

Thanks. It's unfortunate for bitcoin related merchants that a few less reputable merchants will cause problems for the rest, but when isn't this the case?  Honestly, if merchants aren't going to offer refunds, they should just accept wires or bitcoin.

And yes, I have already formed in my mind exactly what is going to happen at this point. "sales are final" clauses certainly aren't all encompasing depending upon state, country laws and various credit card company policies.