Definitively bad day for semeone when he realizes whats going on.
Probably 20+ Monarchs
Someone? How about BFL just took the BTC they mined with your equipment and cashed out.
Topic: Butterflylabs Huge SCAM - page 37. (Read 415652 times)
Definitively bad day for semeone when he realizes whats going on.
Probably 20+ Monarchs
Someone? How about BFL just took the BTC they mined with your equipment and cashed out.
LOL! Someone's fucked.
Definitively bad day for semeone when he realizes whats going on.
Probably 20+ Monarchs
20+ Monarchs ?
At $4,680.00/Monarch, 1 Million ==> ~ 213 Monarch without bulk price...
O_o'...
At 600GH/s per Monarch, we are talking about nearly (maybe much more) 128 TH/s...insane...
Definitively bad day for semeone when he realizes whats going on.
Probably 20+ Monarchs
Re: YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL
I've been trying to help my friend through this process, and it has hit a problem I haven't seen before. Paypal sided with my friend and said that BFL needed to refund the money. BFL has marked his order as cancelled in their system. Now Paypal tried to get the money back to send to my friend, but there was no money in the account they were drawing on. This is the letter that Paypal sent to my friend.
Anyone have any ideas on where to go from here? He kind of feel like this is like issuing a bad check and thinks that there might be some kind of attorney general he could go to.
Just as an update to this, sometime last week, the account got money in it and my friend was paid. He said that paypal just kept hitting the account (with the subsequent NSF charges, I'm sure) until there was money there.
I've been trying to help my friend through this process, and it has hit a problem I haven't seen before. Paypal sided with my friend and said that BFL needed to refund the money. BFL has marked his order as cancelled in their system. Now Paypal tried to get the money back to send to my friend, but there was no money in the account they were drawing on. This is the letter that Paypal sent to my friend.
Quote
Hello *** ******,
The refund sent by Sonny Vleisides ([email protected]) did not clear from the sender's bank. You have not received funds for this payment in your PayPal account.
Please contact Sonny Vleisides regarding this refund.
-----------------------------------
Refund details:
-----------------------------------
Amount: $****** USD
Sender: Sonny Vleisides
Sender's email: [email protected]
Transaction ID: ********
Transaction date: Oct 11, 2013
The refund sent by Sonny Vleisides ([email protected]) did not clear from the sender's bank. You have not received funds for this payment in your PayPal account.
Please contact Sonny Vleisides regarding this refund.
-----------------------------------
Refund details:
-----------------------------------
Amount: $****** USD
Sender: Sonny Vleisides
Sender's email: [email protected]
Transaction ID: ********
Transaction date: Oct 11, 2013
Anyone have any ideas on where to go from here? He kind of feel like this is like issuing a bad check and thinks that there might be some kind of attorney general he could go to.
Just as an update to this, sometime last week, the account got money in it and my friend was paid. He said that paypal just kept hitting the account (with the subsequent NSF charges, I'm sure) until there was money there.
Re: Time to sue ButterflyLabs - Big Single-SC owner let's league for class action
I would definitely file it as a USD transaction.
I also posted this thread on Reddit and it also took off. There have been at least dozens (or more) of confirmed trade violation complaints filed against BFL this weekend.
I imagine Josh will be getting a call from the FTC this week and I think he knows it. He's gone completely silent in this thread and I imagine he's going to be in a lot of trouble.
If I were him I would move my operation out of the US to somewhere that doesn't have consumer protection laws against his widescale illegal activity regarding sales transactions and refunds. As someone pointed out he may have to find somewhere like Somalia to operate like this without men in black showing up at his doorstep because you can't do business like this in virtually any western country.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1pat5e/how_to_file_a_ftc_complaint_against_bfls_illegal/
I also posted this thread on Reddit and it also took off. There have been at least dozens (or more) of confirmed trade violation complaints filed against BFL this weekend.
I imagine Josh will be getting a call from the FTC this week and I think he knows it. He's gone completely silent in this thread and I imagine he's going to be in a lot of trouble.
If I were him I would move my operation out of the US to somewhere that doesn't have consumer protection laws against his widescale illegal activity regarding sales transactions and refunds. As someone pointed out he may have to find somewhere like Somalia to operate like this without men in black showing up at his doorstep because you can't do business like this in virtually any western country.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1pat5e/how_to_file_a_ftc_complaint_against_bfls_illegal/
Thanks for the heads up.. Its because of people like you, the world is a better place 
+1 
Quote
All in all I'm relatively happy with it.
Anyone wants to buy them from me? :-)
Anyone wants to buy them from me? :-)
That quote would make a nice banner ad for your vendor.
You don't say when your original order was or what you paid. Until you provide those figures, we'll guess February 2013 and $60,000.
Your 1500Gh/s represents 0.0004 of the network today.
The network mined $900,000 today, which gives you $360.
Let's let difficulty increase 33% for each of the next eight 11 day periods.
Period one: $4000 to you (or your buyer)
Period two: $3000 to you (or your buyer)
Period three: $2250 to you (or your buyer)
Period four: $1750 to you (or your buyer)
Period five: $1350 to you (or your buyer)
Period six: $1050 to you (or your buyer)
Period seven: $800 to you (or your buyer)
Period eight: $600 to you (or your buyer)
So $15,000 to you or your buyer in the next three months, and $2000 in the three months after that, and $300 in the three months after that and dust after that.
So you're offering a machine that will print $18,000, minus the electricity. We'll leave BTC upvalue out of it, cause the buyer can buy BTC today and realize that profit.
What's a good price today for what you paid $60,000 for 8 months ago? How about $15,000? $12,000? $9,000?
Your vendor is asking $15,000 for the same product, delivered some time after March, 2014. That product will make about $2000 for its buyer.
BTW, if your vendor had delivered in February, 2013, when you presumably ordered, you would have mined BTC at 100 times the rate your machine mines now.
Finally, here is the moment when the BLITBU (or his sychophant) shows up, not to answer customer questions, or explain his company's delays, or aplogize for past delays, but to say, ".... if we had done what we said we'd do, all our customers would be just as screwed as they are now, which means we're a good company for delaying 8 months and more".
Last word: You are to be commended for offering a product in hand for sale, and not a preorder deal.
I did buy from them as well. Reported was 500Ghz x3 +- 10% performance delivered.
Well, I got it now and it turns out to true. They're hashing nicely...
All in all I'm relatively happy with it.
And yes, I did ask for a refund which they said they will not give. And they also said all miners would be delivered within a month (from that date). Turned out to be true, and I took the gamble and staid...
Now everything is looking fine again!
So yes: no pre-order anymore unless from a little more established company.
Anyone wants to buy them from me? :-) They're hosted, so no need to worry about the power requirements and stuff.
Well, I got it now and it turns out to true. They're hashing nicely...
All in all I'm relatively happy with it.
And yes, I did ask for a refund which they said they will not give. And they also said all miners would be delivered within a month (from that date). Turned out to be true, and I took the gamble and staid...
Now everything is looking fine again!
So yes: no pre-order anymore unless from a little more established company.
Anyone wants to buy them from me? :-) They're hosted, so no need to worry about the power requirements and stuff.
I have posted a topic on how to file a FTC complaint against BFL on their illegal behavior regarding late shipments and refusing refunds.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3419162
This takes less than 10 minutes and I encourage EVERYONE who has had problems with BFL to fill it out. The more complaints filed the faster they will investigate them and put a stop to this nonsense. If my above posts did not show that this is illegal behavior by BFL then follow my guide on the FTC web site and you will see that it indeed is a federal trade violation and they can get in massive trouble for this. It's illegal and that's why you don't see other businesses behaving this way.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3419162
This takes less than 10 minutes and I encourage EVERYONE who has had problems with BFL to fill it out. The more complaints filed the faster they will investigate them and put a stop to this nonsense. If my above posts did not show that this is illegal behavior by BFL then follow my guide on the FTC web site and you will see that it indeed is a federal trade violation and they can get in massive trouble for this. It's illegal and that's why you don't see other businesses behaving this way.
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And... another ~1000 units chips ordered 8 to 10 months ago, shipped today. 1/3 1/100 of the entirety of KnC's shipment hash power ... in one day.
FTFTBLITBU
I feel awful for all the people who got duped into buying into BFL. At least it served as a spectacular warning to everyone of the dangers of pre-ordering mining equipment. 
It applies to all businesses. Just because a business is bitcoin related does not put it above the law.
Not sure you actually read his post, or understand anything that is not insults.
Not sure you actually read his post, or understand anything that is not insults.
Yes precisely. BFL is selling hardware, not bitcoins. Bitcoins are a grey area still, but selling actual physical products is not a grey area at all. There is basic contract law governing sales in the United States. You do not need a "paper" contract to be entitled to these protections.
When you walk into a store and buy something you don't need both parties to sign a paper contract to be protected under consumer protection laws. They are automatic when a sale is made and BFL is violating many of these laws by not delivering products on time and refusing refunds when they do so.
I wonder what new disaster has befallen BFL that they sent out their distraction monkey to fling shit again.
Quote
Because nothing illegal has happened. There's nothing to "catch."
Just incompetence. Josh you ever going to ship my Jalapeno? I have to admit, I'm having fun digging you at the conferences. Did you catch my response to Bruno's question at C3?
Do research on the company and employees before you waste your money.
This. It's amazing how many people don't take five minutes to Google before throwing tons of money at a company.
That would require having something to actually sue for. Piss poor internet lawyers aside, a real lawyer would tell you that you have no case.
Is that why you stopped accepting PayPal and credit cards after you guys got your asses handed to you in all your disputes and chargebacks? Because nobody had a legitimate case against you? It would seem that every professional financial company disagrees with you which is why you have to do business in BTC only now.
People are finding out it's not as easy to create a brand new product as they would have you believe, that's what's happening. Even the people using others IP can't bring products to market (Look at Bicknellski's failed ventures) with all of the parts already laid out for them, much less create anything from scratch.
Surprise! It actually requires skill, commitment and dedication to create a new product and bring it to market.
It's definitely a lot easier than you have made it look as KNC brought a 28nm ASIC miner to market in a little over 4 months.Surprise! It actually requires skill, commitment and dedication to create a new product and bring it to market.
Oh really? As one of the few shipping ASIC vendors, I think that makes me qualified to speak on the subject, unlike you. What have you done to bring a new product to the market from scratch? Oh that's right... nothing at all.
Yes you are right, you are living proof of the risks people face when making pre-orders as the VAST majority of your customers experienced insane delays and extremely negative ROI if they managed to receive their product. We can now say "be careful you don't get BFL'ed when pre-ordering" and pretty much everybody will know exactly what that means.Can you point to a vendor that's doing number 3 now? Are you seriously complaining that because demand is exceeding supply, it is somehow the vendors fault?
As for 4, I have no idea what you are talking about. BFL doesn't have any 110nm products and again, are you seriously complaining about the fact that people are paying money for a given product and the vendor charges what people will pay... but it's "overpriced" even though people are paying it? If it was overpriced, people wouldn't buy it - that is simple economics. If you think it's over priced, don't buy it. The majority of the market disagrees with you, so that makes you the one that is incorrect.
So basically points 3 and 4 are invalid and you have proven my point.
Yes actually it is the vendors vault when they sell more pre-orders than they could possibly ever ship in their advertised time-frame such as BFL has done. Both Bitsyncom and KNC (and most others really) sold limited numbers in their batches unlike BFL who pretty much took money from anybody willing to get in their line with no idea that your advertised shipping times were complete lies which would slip time and time and time and time and time again.As for 4, I have no idea what you are talking about. BFL doesn't have any 110nm products and again, are you seriously complaining about the fact that people are paying money for a given product and the vendor charges what people will pay... but it's "overpriced" even though people are paying it? If it was overpriced, people wouldn't buy it - that is simple economics. If you think it's over priced, don't buy it. The majority of the market disagrees with you, so that makes you the one that is incorrect.
So basically points 3 and 4 are invalid and you have proven my point.
Huh, Avalon, really? Last I checked, they had imploded.
Check again. A few weeks ago I purchased 3 Avalon mini's that shipped in less than 72 hours after I ordered them. They are due to ship their gen2 hardware OFF THE SHELF any time now...There are no orders being shipped that were ordered a year ago, please stop spreading false information. Our failure rate on hardware is less than 1%, much better than industry average, so again, your argument is invalid.
Sorry, but if you consider 400 - 1000+ units shipped per day in this industry to be "few devices" you need to have your head examined.
Josh everybody knows you're smart enough to understand that in "this industry", volume means nothing and hashrate means everything. It's like comparing the number of 300MH block eruptors with the number of 500GH Jupiters that have shipped. By repeating this over and over it is only revealing the deception you are constantly hiding behind. Sorry, but if you consider 400 - 1000+ units shipped per day in this industry to be "few devices" you need to have your head examined.
The fact is BFL has been a disaster. Sure not a COMPLETE disaster like bASIC but still a disaster. While waiting for my 60GH Feb BFL pre-order to arrive:
- I've pre-ordered Avalon batch #2 units in Feb which arrived in JUNE for a total of 190GH
- I've pre-ordered raw Avalon chips from Zephir in April which arrived in July, had them sent to Germany where Burnin used a custom board to ship me functioning BitBurner miners in August all from scratch!
- I pre-ordered from a BRAND NEW company KNC back in June which shipped a 525GH miner to me THREE WEEKS AGO!
- I've ordered 3 Avalon Mini's on Oct 15th which shipped within 72 hours which had three times the hashrate for less than my BFL pre-order cost which has still not shipped
What has BFL been doing during these 8+ months since others have produced miners FROM SCRATCH in much less time? It's 100% obvious that BFL sold MANY MANY MANY more orders than they could possible ever ship and all of the lies that have been spewed by you during this past year amount to fraud in my opinion.
/school
quote:
1000 units? Evidence?
Tape out / design for Monarch Chip? Evidence?
Refunds? People are waiting given they have a legal right you should be providing REFUNDS.
Unreliable. Do not buy from BFL.
Seriously I wonder at what point in time does the AG in KS determine what BFL is doing is fraud?
And... another ~1000 units shipped today. 1/3 of the entirety of KnC's shipment... in one day.
1000 units? Evidence?
Tape out / design for Monarch Chip? Evidence?
Refunds? People are waiting given they have a legal right you should be providing REFUNDS.
Unreliable. Do not buy from BFL.
Seriously I wonder at what point in time does the AG in KS determine what BFL is doing is fraud?
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Fraud is commonly understood as dishonesty calculated for advantage. A person who is dishonest may be called a fraud. In the U.S. legal system, fraud is a specific offense with certain features.
Fraud must be proved by showing that the defendant's actions involved five separate elements: (1) a false statement of a material fact,(2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue, (3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim, (4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, and (5) injury to the alleged victim as a result. http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/fraud
Fraud must be proved by showing that the defendant's actions involved five separate elements: (1) a false statement of a material fact,(2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue, (3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim, (4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, and (5) injury to the alleged victim as a result. http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/fraud
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