why are they not being caught ?
Because nothing illegal has happened. There's nothing to "catch."
Topic: Butterflylabs Huge SCAM - page 38. (Read 415652 times)
Because nothing illegal has happened. There's nothing to "catch."
why are they not being caught ?
how many people do you think want to be out further for formal legal fees ?
why are they not being caught ?
Mining on there on devices I have one of there old one takes up more power than what it is worth literally it does. I mean I trust them I got an email today about my new one shipping on November 1st even got a tracking number.
I myself was VERY excited about those BFL SC things (http://www.butterflylabs.com/products/), but it sounded too good to be true. I was one step before pre-ordering the Mini Rig 'SC' for just $30k, which could deliver 1TH/s (update -> 1.5 TH/s according to the website now!). You know what? Bullshit.
Is butterfly labs mining with those ASICs at the moment? (https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/is-butterfly-labs-mining-with-those-asics-at-the-moment-110290)
Hell no! Do you see some huge raise in hashing power? No.
Would it be beneficial to mine on their own devices? Hell yes! More than just selling them.
You know the true reason why they are not mining with them? They can't. They don't have them.
But they have already proven legit! They fullfiled the orders and delivered FPGAs!
Sure they have. Gained your trust. And will take them back. And you will pay even more. You will loose your working FPGAs and also money. Huge money.
They still could have runned before..
They could, but why would they? Establish trust. Then run away.
They could have stolen $1M.
Now they have $30M and the hardware. Many of you fell for it.
I still trust them.
Really? What about that the CEO is a fraduster, sentenced to 3 years in prison and is currently released and violating the terms?
As always, I feel terribly sorry for all you guys.
Just goes to show the risks of buying vaporware. Don't put existing money in non-existing products. Simple as that. Ask the people that pre-ordered hashfast, and just got notified of a 3 week delay. No more ROI.Is butterfly labs mining with those ASICs at the moment? (https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/is-butterfly-labs-mining-with-those-asics-at-the-moment-110290)
Hell no! Do you see some huge raise in hashing power? No.
Would it be beneficial to mine on their own devices? Hell yes! More than just selling them.
Quote from: Desolator link=topic=110290.msg1200110#msg1200110
If circumstantial evidence isn't enough, try simple business logic. The price is set at $149 for a 3500MH/s chip. At current prices, they would make $149 after about 10.8 days of mining! So why doesn't Butterfly Labs just run them for 10.8 days instead of selling them? Then they'd have $149 and the chips lol. I mean seriously, read those last 2 sentences again, people. You think they're not mining with them? I can't be the only one that realizes this. From a business perspective, if you had an investment that would pay off 200% in a month and you sell it off instead, you're a crazy person.
You know the true reason why they are not mining with them? They can't. They don't have them.
But they have already proven legit! They fullfiled the orders and delivered FPGAs!
Sure they have. Gained your trust. And will take them back. And you will pay even more. You will loose your working FPGAs and also money. Huge money.
Quote
Trade in terms: Qualifying trade in for upgrades can be either an older generation Mini Rig or 25 older generation Singles. Once your new rig is ready for delivery (currently scheduled for November), you'll be notified to ship your trade in units to us. Upon receipt we'll release your new Mini Rig SC for shipment to you.
They still could have runned before..
They could, but why would they? Establish trust. Then run away.
They could have stolen $1M.
Now they have $30M and the hardware. Many of you fell for it.
Quote from: squall1066 link=topic=89685.msg987282#msg987282
Total Orders (By last seen) 7678
Orders Tracked 227
Trade-In Orders 66
Units Sold
Jalapeno SC 225
Single SC 231
Mini Rig SC 21
Extended TH
Jalepeno SC 0.7875
Single SC 9.24
Mini Rig SC 21
Grand Total of 31.0275
Orders Tracked 227
Trade-In Orders 66
Units Sold
Jalapeno SC 225
Single SC 231
Mini Rig SC 21
Extended TH
Jalepeno SC 0.7875
Single SC 9.24
Mini Rig SC 21
Grand Total of 31.0275
I still trust them.
Really? What about that the CEO is a fraduster, sentenced to 3 years in prison and is currently released and violating the terms?
Quote from: elux link=topic=110805.msg1206567#msg1206567
September 15, 2010
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. SONNY VLEISIDES
...
The defendant is hereby placed on supervised release, effective immediately, for a term of three years under the following terms and conditions:
...
The defendant shall not engage, as whole or partial owner, employee or otherwise, in any business involving loan programs, gambling or gaming activities, telemarketing activities, investment programs or any other business involving the solicitation of funds or cold-calls to customers without the express approval of the Probation Officer prior to engagement in such employment.
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. SONNY VLEISIDES
...
The defendant is hereby placed on supervised release, effective immediately, for a term of three years under the following terms and conditions:
...
The defendant shall not engage, as whole or partial owner, employee or otherwise, in any business involving loan programs, gambling or gaming activities, telemarketing activities, investment programs or any other business involving the solicitation of funds or cold-calls to customers without the express approval of the Probation Officer prior to engagement in such employment.
As always, I feel terribly sorry for all you guys.
Because of this BFL debacle, many processing companies are cracking down on bitcoin. Paypal and square have banned my accounts despite having no charge backs and no negative feedback. They say its a "high risk" and then force-closed my business account. In my opinion, this isn't bitcoins fault. It is the companies fault for not doing their due diligence and actually checking out BFL before they allowed them to process millions of dollars. Because of their poor business practices, it is now that much harder to purchase hardware for the rest of us.
It's (to me) more plausible that they are just incompetent
They are very competent crooks. BFL was a scam from the very start.Depends what you consider a scam. I think BFL did a poor job delivering these products but it's not a scam. They did make advertise their product to perform under the most optimistic situation they didn't put a warning saying that performance and ROI would change by the time the products flood the market.
I love how their website still lets you order products for delivery in 2 months and there is no way they can deliver in 2 months when they still haven't shipped April's orders yet.
Then of course, they are taking preorders for their next gen stuff. I wonder if they can improve on being 12+ months late for this next set.
It's (to me) more plausible that they are just incompetent
They are very competent crooks. BFL was a scam from the very start.Depends what you consider a scam. I think BFL did a poor job delivering these products but it's not a scam. They did make advertise their product to perform under the most optimistic situation they didn't put a warning saying that performance and ROI would change by the time the products flood the market.
I have heard from MikeT who lives very near the BFL Factory, a player on sealswithclubs who is well known as a bitcoin and well regarded, and is also known for mining bitcoins as well as selling them locally in the BFL Area, that:
"They have a return policy guarantee, that if your BFL gets outdated or that it breaks that they will take it back and return you a newer and better BFL machine. They have so many on the factory, I know this because I have friends who work on the factory floor, they don't even know what to do with em. I think they might even give me some for free."
Some weeks later he said he had one arrive, that it had "two power cables. that the first day I got it, I plugged it in and it exploded."
I'll ask him some more to confirm the TRUTH about these allegations, whatever they may BFL about.
CAMTRONNNNN
"They have a return policy guarantee, that if your BFL gets outdated or that it breaks that they will take it back and return you a newer and better BFL machine. They have so many on the factory, I know this because I have friends who work on the factory floor, they don't even know what to do with em. I think they might even give me some for free."
Some weeks later he said he had one arrive, that it had "two power cables. that the first day I got it, I plugged it in and it exploded."
I'll ask him some more to confirm the TRUTH about these allegations, whatever they may BFL about.
CAMTRONNNNN
quote:
Here is the real rating that I liked.....I think the site is appropriately named
"SCAM ADVISOR"
My computer started beeping and flashing the words "WARNING WILL ROBINSON" when I entered butterfly labs....(well sort off lolz)
Notice that the company is incorperated in COSTA RICA ...oh sonny we can see the escape plan
http://www.scamadviser.com/check-website/butterflylabs.com
"SCAM ADVISOR"
My computer started beeping and flashing the words "WARNING WILL ROBINSON" when I entered butterfly labs....(well sort off lolz)
Notice that the company is incorperated in COSTA RICA ...oh sonny we can see the escape plan
http://www.scamadviser.com/check-website/butterflylabs.com
I finally received mine.
Ordered on february 2013. Is in my house in colombia hashing at 30 gh/s. Thats like 0.05 btc daily.
Ordered on february 2013. Is in my house in colombia hashing at 30 gh/s. Thats like 0.05 btc daily.
quote:
Thanks for the acknowledgement.
Don't say that.
Say instead: Don't order from (read: give money to) BFL, under any circumstance, not now, not ever.
Latest development:
I've been trying to help my friend through this process, and it has hit a problem I haven't seen before. Paypal sided with my friend and said that BFL needed to refund the money.
BFL has marked his order as cancelled in their system. Now Paypal tried to get the money back to send to my friend, but there was no money in the account they were drawing on.
This is the letter that Paypal sent to my friend.
Anyone have any ideas on where to go from here? He kind of feel like this is like issuing a bad check and thinks that there might be some kind of attorney general he could go to.
Butterfly Labs Inc. have claimed that Sonny Vleisides role is that of "VP of Product Development".
I believe that claim to be false or at best misleading. Likely false in everything but name.
I believe Sonny Vleisides is still the acting day-to-day general manager, the head of operations, the decision man, the chief executive.
By any measure other than by title.
See, this trick of appointing "the cleaning lady", or, as the case may be, some person in another country,
to positions of responsibility perhaps in exchange for some disproportionate compensation,
for signing a couple of documents every once in a while, happens to be another red flag.
It's the kind of thing scammers tend to do, and honest people tend to don't.
This email, from Paypal, if accurate, seems to show that that claim is, indeed, false.
I.e. it shows that the claim that Sonny Vleisides is acting VP of Product Development, is materially false.
Which, you know, one could suspect, what with him having no relevant background in electrical engineering or computer science.
As opposed to "a colorful background in offshore libertarianism", to borrow the words of his accomplice Josh Zerlan aka. Inaba aka. BFL_Josh.
Which turns out to mean, in plain english, you tell people lies to get them to send you money, you defraud people with false promises of great wealth and riches.
I congratulate the perpetrators, and extend my condolences to the victims of this... artful operation.
Sonny Vleisides has pulled it off again.
I hope this thread saved someone.
PS:
To the people who paid about a million dollars (at todays valuation) for an ASIC minirig on the night of June 23 2012:
Please try to find out what happened to your money. What fraction was converted into cash. How much of it was retained in BTC.
Do it before they "run out of cash reserves" and shut down / file for bankruptcy / run for the hills, with your money.
Where is it today? How much can be recovered?
You've been swindled, you've been abused, you've been lied to repeatedly.
That just ain't right.
It's time to wake up, get angry and go to court.
I should have listened to this post before placing an order.
Thanks for the acknowledgement.
If you're thinking of ordering from these people, trying calling them to see if you can get an actual person on the phone. Then read a page or so from their forums. Then if you still think they will deliver on time or provide any customer service, go ahead and order.
Don't say that.
Say instead: Don't order from (read: give money to) BFL, under any circumstance, not now, not ever.
Latest development:
I've been trying to help my friend through this process, and it has hit a problem I haven't seen before. Paypal sided with my friend and said that BFL needed to refund the money.
BFL has marked his order as cancelled in their system. Now Paypal tried to get the money back to send to my friend, but there was no money in the account they were drawing on.
This is the letter that Paypal sent to my friend.
Quote
Hello *** ******,
The refund sent by Sonny Vleisides ([email protected]) did not clear from the sender's bank. You have not received funds for this payment in your PayPal account.
Please contact Sonny Vleisides regarding this refund.
-----------------------------------
Refund details:
-----------------------------------
Amount: $****** USD
Sender: Sonny Vleisides
Sender's email: [email protected]
Transaction ID: ********
Transaction date: Oct 11, 2013
The refund sent by Sonny Vleisides ([email protected]) did not clear from the sender's bank. You have not received funds for this payment in your PayPal account.
Please contact Sonny Vleisides regarding this refund.
-----------------------------------
Refund details:
-----------------------------------
Amount: $****** USD
Sender: Sonny Vleisides
Sender's email: [email protected]
Transaction ID: ********
Transaction date: Oct 11, 2013
Anyone have any ideas on where to go from here? He kind of feel like this is like issuing a bad check and thinks that there might be some kind of attorney general he could go to.
Butterfly Labs Inc. have claimed that Sonny Vleisides role is that of "VP of Product Development".
I believe that claim to be false or at best misleading. Likely false in everything but name.
I believe Sonny Vleisides is still the acting day-to-day general manager, the head of operations, the decision man, the chief executive.
By any measure other than by title.
See, this trick of appointing "the cleaning lady", or, as the case may be, some person in another country,
to positions of responsibility perhaps in exchange for some disproportionate compensation,
for signing a couple of documents every once in a while, happens to be another red flag.
It's the kind of thing scammers tend to do, and honest people tend to don't.
This email, from Paypal, if accurate, seems to show that that claim is, indeed, false.
I.e. it shows that the claim that Sonny Vleisides is acting VP of Product Development, is materially false.
Which, you know, one could suspect, what with him having no relevant background in electrical engineering or computer science.
As opposed to "a colorful background in offshore libertarianism", to borrow the words of his accomplice Josh Zerlan aka. Inaba aka. BFL_Josh.
Which turns out to mean, in plain english, you tell people lies to get them to send you money, you defraud people with false promises of great wealth and riches.
I congratulate the perpetrators, and extend my condolences to the victims of this... artful operation.
Sonny Vleisides has pulled it off again.
I hope this thread saved someone.
PS:
To the people who paid about a million dollars (at todays valuation) for an ASIC minirig on the night of June 23 2012:
Please try to find out what happened to your money. What fraction was converted into cash. How much of it was retained in BTC.
Do it before they "run out of cash reserves" and shut down / file for bankruptcy / run for the hills, with your money.
Where is it today? How much can be recovered?
You've been swindled, you've been abused, you've been lied to repeatedly.
That just ain't right.
It's time to wake up, get angry and go to court.
It's (to me) more plausible that they are just incompetent and lack the manpower/skills to produce more units at a faster pace. Again, just my opinion.
Really, once they had the designs ready, why didn't they have the units built in China instead of making themselves? It's like Apple making iPhones themselves, by the time the iPhone 5 was announced they'd still be working on the backlog of iPhone 4 orders.
Funny how Google/Motorola mange to make the Moto-X in Texas
If you want to support US workers you now have a choice!
http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/11/4717796/made-in-america-a-look-inside-motorolas-moto-x-factory
People here will never learn. I have seen this way to many times. It's like me explaining to my friends that my ex-GF will cheat on you as she has done to the guy before me. You all will learn in time and BFL will profit from your good hearts.
Sad BTCBTCBTCBTCBTCrue
People here will never learn. I have seen this way to many times. It's like me explaining to my friends that my ex-GF will cheat on you as she has done to the guy before me. You all will learn in time and BFL will profit from your good hearts.
It's (to me) more plausible that they are just incompetent
They are very competent crooks. BFL was a scam from the very start.[/quote]
warning my friends and family to avoid BFL like a disease-infested hooker, I'll take my leave of this thread. :-)
[/quote]
I should have listened to this post before placing an order. It's been almost 7 months since I ordered and paid for my miner and still nothing. Even their own customer service's blog (BFL_Jody) is false. They claim they have shipped ordered that they have not.
Now they have the audacity to ask for more money to upgrade to their newest miner. I'm so done with this company and based on the response on their own forums, so are hundreds of other customers. There is no SINGLE POSITIVE post that I came across in the customer service section.
If you're thinking of ordering from these people, trying calling them to see if you can get an actual person on the phone. Then read a page or so from their forums. Then if you still think they will deliver on time or provide any customer service, go ahead and order.
Someone mentioned a "small but vocal" group of unsatisfied customers. Based on past experience and BFL's own forums, I would say the vast majority of their customers are angry and vocal about being lied to and mistreated.
Now they have the audacity to ask for more money to upgrade to their newest miner. I'm so done with this company and based on the response on their own forums, so are hundreds of other customers. There is no SINGLE POSITIVE post that I came across in the customer service section.
If you're thinking of ordering from these people, trying calling them to see if you can get an actual person on the phone. Then read a page or so from their forums. Then if you still think they will deliver on time or provide any customer service, go ahead and order.
Someone mentioned a "small but vocal" group of unsatisfied customers. Based on past experience and BFL's own forums, I would say the vast majority of their customers are angry and vocal about being lied to and mistreated.
It's (to me) more plausible that they are just incompetent
They are very competent crooks. BFL was a scam from the very start.I agree. I finally clawed all my money back from them by doing direct bank charge backs. Forget pay pal. Go directly to your card issuer. If you paid by BTC you're screwed. One of the drawbacks of digital currency imo.
Some of you are just plain silly. The difficulty involved in reverse engineering a finished asic in order to "steal" the IP is at least a few orders of magnitude higher than just designing a (better) bitcoin chip.
Why reverse engineering when the chinese factory has the chip design in electronic format (I believe) ?
Any customer may do reverse engineering ...
Only the fab would have that (globalfoundries for BFL), and no fab is crazy enough to give the design for the masks to anyone else. Not even a chinese fab. And especially not for something as trivial as a bitcoin miner that would probably cost less than $50K to design and breaking that sort of confidence would instakill any fab.
Now you can theoretically try to reverse engineer a finished chip by "sanding" it down layer by layer and putting in under an electro microscope, but no one in their right minds would do that for a bitcoin asic, and even if someone wanted do, they could simply buy a few chips for next to nothing. THe idea that assembly in China is somehow putting BFL "know how" (cough) at risk is ludicrous.
Some of you are just plain silly. The difficulty involved in reverse engineering a finished asic in order to "steal" the IP is at least a few orders of magnitude higher than just designing a (better) bitcoin chip.
Why reverse engineering when the chinese factory has the chip design in electronic format (I believe) ?
Any customer may do reverse engineering ...
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