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Topic: Calling top at $16500 (Even Newer!: $2483 bottom 19 Feb 2021 MtGox said so!) - page 33. (Read 24373 times)

legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1087
Hello Juno! cool handle Smiley

Looks like there wasn't anywhere near the rebound energy to get back to 16.5k

I have a theory! (who doesn't!)

I was throwing around some ideas with a mate of mine about the recent top...



The part of the chart where I put "ran out of steam" and then said the next bit of growth might be to do with tether.

It occurred to me maybe that from 10th it was all tether!? I was sure 16.5 was the natural top, so I think what we are looking at here is a "tether boosted top".

Maybe the natural top was even lower. So that would explain a weak rebound to just under 12. Tether has shut up shop now so the real demand is much lower.

So it looks like we are into the second leg down after all (so soon!) where I guess it has to retest ~6. All this could be construed as some monster bullish pennant, but I'm not convinced about that. I think it breaches 6 to the downside 5 is a very popular number on the social media (and thats really all charting is, trying to gauge sentiment) so we'll bounce at 5 then get another upswing. Bottoms in bitcoin have never resolved this way before, I don't expect this to be different - I still think the market wants to "fill the gap" with the gap being the "speculative mania" runup which starts at around 3 (after the first time we hit 3 there was that little bit of consolidation, then it really took off) so I maintain there will be a bit more choppiness before the ultimate bottom in that range 2483 is a rather arbitrary number but its as good as any - it will be that ballpark)

Anyway for me thats all that BTC has going for it at the moment, lots of speculative capital, liquidity and plenty of people doing TA so things might play out like chartists want. Perhaps plenty of opportunity for traders to make bank. Not really for me. I'll continue to hold a little of the XBT in my pension as a hedge (just in case!) and the majority of my crypto in BCH, which I'll be spending and replenishing, as that is the next phase...! I always had a few alts since back in the day, always fun to spin the wheel too Wink

So the way I see it with Bitcoin (and have done since around 2013 before any of this fork debacle) is that the "bitcoin price" is a product of 2 things. Fundamental value and speculative mania cycles.

The first comes from utility and adoption, and follows an s-curve which spans a few decades.
The second is the periodic exponential run-up in price followed by blow off top and a period of consolidation.

The run-ups are great, and fun and everyone loves it but really they aren't the measure of bitcoin. (The one useful thing they add is reading awareness).
The consolidation periods are the real key thing to look at.

Connect the *bottoms* to get your s-curve. Thats the base fundamental price. Each time the speculative run-up is relative to this price, each time it collapses and the consolidation bottom give you the real signal about what is going on.

The fork has complicated things. Could have set thing back 5-10 years. That's 2-3 years of stalled progress whilst everyone bickered and another 3-10 years whilst we wait for core's roadmap to play out to its inevitable end.

It certainly really took its toll on the community, but I have to say after 2-3 years of despair I've never felt more like it's back in the day with people excited about working on things, and a real fervour in the community about where this is going.

The "bitcoin price" doesn't exist anymore, well I suppose as a composite of BTC+BCH price it does, and in that respect the above continues to apply. What's important now (to the bitcoin cashers) is the BTC:BCH ratio.

So BCH is very young, and is still perceived as an alt, and is still subject to a lot of money just doing simple arbitrage trading. That is going to keep the ratio pegged on the most part. The thing is ratio in the short term is not so important, because even if people play it safe and hold both coins. There will come a time when the speculative mania kicks in, and all the while BCH has been building out the infrastructure to cope with this - and if you do a really rough each time is 10x bigger than the last. Then the fundamental value in the capacity of the networks is going to be illustrated.

People who wanted to dump BCH for BTC have done so. People who wanted to dump BTC for BCH have done so. They are the philosophical hard liners. The die hards, the crazies. The people that think you have it all figured out! .... Who me? I er.. well er... no its not like that... ok you got me Wink

The dumps have happened, the pumps have happened, and this is where we are still around 0.1 territory



Now think back to the connect the "bottoms". The same s-curve / hype cycle applies to this ratio, it started out around 1:20, its been pumped a few times by excitable folk, but here we are now around 1:10

and what we have now (and I think its still a good majority) is a cohort who are the ambivalent. They did nothing when it forked, they held there coins and decide to see how things played out. I bet most people reading this post will identify with this - its the star thing to do after all. Why rock the boat?

These people are less interested in philosophical ideals not because they aren't smart enough to get it, but because they probably just don't care as much. Probably still think mostly in dollar terms, they got into bitcoin because its an investment. Investors generally want to make money. They are interested in what works, what sells, what people are buying and *using*.

As things unfold people will see what works and what doesn't and as the ambivalent start to recognise this they will slowly start to rebalance, the chart above already shows the steady creep. Every pump is sold off, but a hard core isn't selling because they "know".

On top of this the whole mining market is balanced on a knife edge. Markets set the price, miners adjust accordingly. The BCH DDA keeps it that way, this  benefits BCH, because it gives miners the facility to juice their returns by siphoning more into BCH as the ratio improves.

I think the ratio will continue to improve, there's no rush. I already switched - I feel its inevitable. Its for the ambivalent to decide at which point they are going make the plunge. Eventually FOMO will kick in, the trickle becomes a flood and there is no way back for a coin, who's primary purpose is a store of value, that has no value.

Thats what I think, but what do I know.
member
Activity: 322
Merit: 43
Looks like there is a support (sort of) right now at $6,000, let's see if it lasts as long as the previous support at $7,500.
It has a little bit bounced back up to $6150 but this is exactly what happened few days ago.
What's strange is that everything is down, crypto currencies but also Wall Street?
Where's the money going right now? Gold?

Yes support at ~$6000! This is eerily the same as first bounce from MtGox (around 68% - fibonacci anyone Wink ). Which inevitably begs the question what what that Goxtrapolate to...



So here we have the gox collapse in broad strokes with the lower highs and lower lows to the bottom.

Assuming the initial sell-offs are correlated in magnitude, we can see that this market is playing out slower - expected as its bigger. Approx 2.8 times slower to be exact.

If we plug the % moves, and the duration (x2.83) into the current ATH we get a *very* simplistic picture of what would happen if this plays out like gox.

Note: I don't think it necessarily will, but I have been thinking $4100 for the absolute long term bottom was looking a bit optimistic considering how for this first move went.

Hi sgbett,

I read your posts with attention.

A few questions:
- on the picture posted, you predict a price of circa 16k US dollars in April. While right now it seems very unlikely to see such price for the 1st of April, I am interested to know how did you get this price, and if you think it could be achieved in May instead?
- second question I have: you said several times "I am all BCH", well I have Bitcoin Cash myself and I am interested to hear your thoughts on how do you predict BCH to survive while BTC will die in the middle term (according to your posting here). All I see so far is BCH going down everytime BTC goes down (except for October last year).

Thanks for your input.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1087
At which point we discover the true value of BTC based on fundamentals.

Lol

I've been saying the same thing since 2014 and the price action since then has continued to bear this out.

The base price is an s-curve of adoption (fundamentals), overlaid with speculative mania cycles.

I'm not the only one, this guy spells it out. (4 years late mind you Wink )

The mania-cycles are fun, but the s-curve of adoption is essential to drive the price up and create the next cycle. Yes, this is a criticism of the course of action that has resulted in BTC market cap being butchered by alts, and tx count falling off a cliff:



Whether BCH existed or not I would be saying the same thing, I *was* saying the same thing before it existed, I always have been saying the same thing.
legendary
Activity: 3710
Merit: 5286
At which point we discover the true value of BTC based on fundamentals.

Lol
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1087
Looks like there is a support (sort of) right now at $6,000, let's see if it lasts as long as the previous support at $7,500.
It has a little bit bounced back up to $6150 but this is exactly what happened few days ago.
What's strange is that everything is down, crypto currencies but also Wall Street?
Where's the money going right now? Gold?

Yes support at ~$6000! This is eerily the same as first bounce from MtGox (around 68% - fibonacci anyone Wink ). Which inevitably begs the question what what that Goxtrapolate to...



So here we have the gox collapse in broad strokes with the lower highs and lower lows to the bottom.

Assuming the initial sell-offs are correlated in magnitude, we can see that this market is playing out slower - expected as its bigger. Approx 2.8 times slower to be exact.

If we plug the % moves, and the duration (x2.83) into the current ATH we get a *very* simplistic picture of what would happen if this plays out like gox.

Note: I don't think it necessarily will, but I have been thinking $4100 for the absolute long term bottom was looking a bit optimistic considering how for this first move went.

Lets zoom in at that right hand goxtrapolation image a bit and add a little fibomagic...



0.382 Fib retrace at 11,171 (of the move from 19666 to 5920) provided some resistance but thats been broken through now.

In order for this move not to get ahead of itself, it might pull back at 12793, before continuing up to the 0.618 level at 14415.

I reckon that level will provide some significant resistance, as there is also some high volume action back on 22nd December in that range. If we get there I'll be exiting for a nice ~200% swing trade, as I grabbed some exposure via XBT Tracker one ETF at around the $6500 mark.

If the goxtrapolation is right then there could be some additional upside to the target of 16250, but I've no stomach for that! There is still plenty of hopium around that suggests its possible, still lots of chatter about new ATH's and how "that was the bottom" (have these people even seen a bottom before? - doesn't look like any I ever saw!). I suspect the next downswing will have a radical effect on their outlook!

Once the fear has set in the final dead cat bounce to 10k will be half hearted, and eventually we roll over into the agonising, grinding, true bottom discovery phase. Every last drop of speculation will be squeezed from the market. At which point we discover the true value of BTC based on fundamentals.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1087
6 weeks til' 16k, man this is taking forever Cheesy
full member
Activity: 266
Merit: 110
...
For it to be a wave 4 there has to be a 1, 2 and 3 though - i cant see how you could fit those to the price chart?

The 5 in your chart (below) is a 3 in a larger count. IMO we had a shallow A, strong B (the market hoped to continue the bull trend) and now a deep C. This ABC is IMO the wave 4.



I agree. The $20K top could fit equally well by being 3 or 5
4iii 4iv in your graph look a bit overfitted - that might have given it away.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1087
Dat bounce. Not even sure its gonna wait until April Wink


Theres no consolidation in the first chart, from Mt.Gox times. No red candle.

We had consolidation until the end of october, only then there was a bubble. Now we are going up slowly, and it will bounce up and down along the way.

Do you think we can reach 25k by march? Banks are saying they will buy bitcoin, and Im sure Wall Stret hedge funds were buying in november and december (although I dont believe anymore that they dumped it, it was the usual whales). If it is true, we can have a spike that will dwarf the previous bubble.

25k March!? Are you even reading the thread? Not a chance in hell.

This is a short term bounce, the downtrend will resume, that consolidation you talk about is way off yet, all the hopefuls need to capitulate...
sr. member
Activity: 1400
Merit: 347
Dat bounce. Not even sure its gonna wait until April Wink


Theres no consolidation in the first chart, from Mt.Gox times. No red candle.

We had consolidation until the end of october, only then there was a bubble. Now we are going up slowly, and it will bounce up and down along the way.

Do you think we can reach 25k by march? Banks are saying they will buy bitcoin, and Im sure Wall Stret hedge funds were buying in november and december (although I dont believe anymore that they dumped it, it was the usual whales). If it is true, we can have a spike that will dwarf the previous bubble.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1087
Looks like there is a support (sort of) right now at $6,000, let's see if it lasts as long as the previous support at $7,500.
It has a little bit bounced back up to $6150 but this is exactly what happened few days ago.
What's strange is that everything is down, crypto currencies but also Wall Street?
Where's the money going right now? Gold?

Yes support at ~$6000! This is eerily the same as first bounce from MtGox (around 68% - fibonacci anyone Wink ). Which inevitably begs the question what what that Goxtrapolate to...



So here we have the gox collapse in broad strokes with the lower highs and lower lows to the bottom.

Assuming the initial sell-offs are correlated in magnitude, we can see that this market is playing out slower - expected as its bigger. Approx 2.8 times slower to be exact.

If we plug the % moves, and the duration (x2.83) into the current ATH we get a *very* simplistic picture of what would happen if this plays out like gox.

Note: I don't think it necessarily will, but I have been thinking $4100 for the absolute long term bottom was looking a bit optimistic considering how for this first move went.




Dat bounce. Not even sure its gonna wait until April Wink

(seriously though, I don't think the road back to 16k is going to be painless, think it will be pretty noisy but the uptrend will seem clear on reflection)

You gotta ask yourself, why on earth would this "BCH shill" buy BTC Wink
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1087
very interesting! I will watch with baited breath. I'll be the first to admit that, despite me being all in BCH, I added a little to my BTC ETF in my SIPP at around 6600 today. Seemed like a reasonable medium term trade, either it dies and I'm still up overall. It bounces to 16k and I make a few extra quid.

ORRRRR its the epic wave 5 Cheesy

I might not beleive in the fundamentals of BTC anymore, but I understand the irrationality of markets ;P
legendary
Activity: 2170
Merit: 1094
...
For it to be a wave 4 there has to be a 1, 2 and 3 though - i cant see how you could fit those to the price chart?

The 5 in your chart (below) is a 3 in a larger count. IMO we had a shallow A, strong B (the market hoped to continue the bull trend) and now a deep C. This ABC is IMO the wave 4.

legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1087
There's not enough information yet for me to draw what I believe will happen. I'd like first to see the local bottom confirmed with a bullish
double bottom in 30min - 1h - 2h MACD, since the current chart has bearish double bottoms. This could happen tonight or tomorrow.
About how the wave 5 will look, well... it will start with a wave 1, which will be hard to distinguish from a bear market at first.
Weekly MACD could drop into negative if the recovery will be slow and people may panic sell and test support on high volume several times.

For it to be a wave 4 there has to be a 1, 2 and 3 though - i cant see how you could fit those to the price chart?
legendary
Activity: 2170
Merit: 1094
There's not enough information yet for me to draw what I believe will happen. I'd like first to see the local bottom confirmed with a bullish
double bottom in 30min - 1h - 2h MACD, since the current chart has bearish double bottoms. This could happen tonight or tomorrow.
About how the wave 5 will look, well... it will start with a wave 1, which will be hard to distinguish from a bear market at first.
Weekly MACD could drop into negative if the recovery will be slow and people may panic sell and test support on high volume several times.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1087
New prediction by sgbett: 2483$ bottom on 19th Feb 2021. At first I wanted to offer you a digital hug, but I strongly disagree with both price and time targets.
So far we have no reason to believe that this correction is not a wave 4, and these wave 4s tend to be shorter in bitcoin (I'm looking forward to the wave 5).
IMO only a long period of bad news can lead us to a Feb 2021 bottom (without a new ATH in between, something like 70k$ in 2019).

I think you are right, its very unlikely it will be a rerun of gox. This was more of thought experiment than a super serious call (certainly wouldn't try and trade it!)

I'm no elliot wave expert but if i had to throw some lines out id say it was something like this...



I'd be v interested to see your count to make it a wave 4? (I'd be even more interested to see wave 5, if it is!)

sr. member
Activity: 1400
Merit: 347
February 2021 is very far. It will rise to 100k before it fall to that bottom.
legendary
Activity: 2170
Merit: 1094
New prediction by sgbett: 2483$ bottom on 19th Feb 2021. At first I wanted to offer you a digital hug, but I strongly disagree with both price and time targets.
So far we have no reason to believe that this correction is not a wave 4, and these wave 4s tend to be shorter in bitcoin (I'm looking forward to the wave 5).
IMO only a long period of bad news can lead us to a Feb 2021 bottom (without a new ATH in between, something like 70k$ in 2019).
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1087
Looks like there is a support (sort of) right now at $6,000, let's see if it lasts as long as the previous support at $7,500.
It has a little bit bounced back up to $6150 but this is exactly what happened few days ago.
What's strange is that everything is down, crypto currencies but also Wall Street?
Where's the money going right now? Gold?

Yes support at ~$6000! This is eerily the same as first bounce from MtGox (around 68% - fibonacci anyone Wink ). Which inevitably begs the question what what that Goxtrapolate to...



So here we have the gox collapse in broad strokes with the lower highs and lower lows to the bottom.

Assuming the initial sell-offs are correlated in magnitude, we can see that this market is playing out slower - expected as its bigger. Approx 2.8 times slower to be exact.

If we plug the % moves, and the duration (x2.83) into the current ATH we get a *very* simplistic picture of what would happen if this plays out like gox.

Note: I don't think it necessarily will, but I have been thinking $4100 for the absolute long term bottom was looking a bit optimistic considering how for this first move went.
legendary
Activity: 892
Merit: 1013
Looks like there is a support (sort of) right now at $6,000, let's see if it lasts as long as the previous support at $7,500.
It has a little bit bounced back up to $6150 but this is exactly what happened few days ago.
What's strange is that everything is down, crypto currencies but also Wall Street?
Where's the money going right now? Gold?



right now, fiat.
The question is, where all this fiat is going to flow?
i would go for gold and real estate Smiley
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 109
Looks like there is a support (sort of) right now at $6,000, let's see if it lasts as long as the previous support at $7,500.
It has a little bit bounced back up to $6150 but this is exactly what happened few days ago.
What's strange is that everything is down, crypto currencies but also Wall Street?
Where's the money going right now? Gold?


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