Topic: Can you answer a couple of questions to a potential bitcoin buyer? - page 10. (Read 1795 times)

Why are some people paying 1 million for a bugatti if they can have an audi cheaper? Why do they pay more for a lambo that uses audi parts than for an audi? Why people pay more for a bitcoin where they could have bitcoin cash for cheaper? Think about it.

You demand answers to be pushed down your throat instead of using your brain and coming up with them by yourself.

Well, this is exactly what I am doing. Trying to exchange stuff. You want $38,000 dollars from me. And what you offer me in return is the ability to watch number 1 on the screen of my mobile phone. I am asking why would I gave you that much money for such an ability. Your answer is because this number is amedium of exchange. This is pretty irrational answer given that "a medium of exchange" is just a generic phrase. It's like asking a salesman about the box that has $10,000 price on it, and he answers: : that's a product. "A product" is just a generic phrase. The same thing is saying that something is "money", "currency", "digital gold", whatever. What I want to know is what utilization capacity will I get for my dollars? Dollars, which gave me the right to collaterals, goods, services, or labour of the borrowers, as explained in the above linked videos. So, we are trying to exchange stuff. And I am asking you: what utilization capacity do you offer me for my dollars? What is your answer?

To sell it for $100k? What kind of a dumb question is this? Are you stewpid? You talk all that crap about finance and you don't know the basics of finance which is buying low and selling high? Read a book you ignorant fool.

Stock Investing For Dummies Cheat Sheet

You keep thinking in terms of government's bonds. Stop it. The videos you've mentioned have no relation with the questions you're making here. You're asking “why would I want to buy a number”, I'm telling you that this number can be used to exchange stuff; it's a medium of exchange. There are people who find it useful. Focus on this statement.

No, it also means able to be traded:
By the same reasoning, gold is also a dead rock. Yes, you can make jewelry, but what's the point of jewelry if you don't care about shiny necklaces? What if you don't care about electronics? What if you don't care about medicine and dentistry? Guess what: Some people do.

Same goes for Bitcoin. Some people are satisfied by using it as a currency, because it has perfect characteristics. The fact that you're seeing it just as a number doesn't make that false. Do we agree that if two individuals find it satisfactory, it instantly gains value? (Whether that's personal or market value)

Why would I care for someone's transactions? Why would I fantasize about being a millionaire? I only asked two simple questions. Can you answer them please?

Hahaha. It is actually you who is being arrogently ignorant.

The fact is this. After buying bitcoin I literally am only able to watch a number. There's nothing to eat, wear, drink, drive ... There's nothing to use as jewelry or energy. There's no entity with the liability to return me the capital I invested in it. There's only a number that I am able to watch.

Now, you can call this ability "a medium of exchange" or "currency". You can say it has many features and benefits. You can talk about availability, irreversibility, immutability, costs of mining, someone's profit, inflation, deflation, government, pension ... whatever. But still, after paying $38,000 I am only able to watch a number on the screen. That's all I got. I cannot redeem that number at the issuer. I cannot use it for consumption. I cannot use it as an intermediate good. Nothing. All I can do is to watch it like pictures are watched. No matter how many fancy concepts you mention. No matter how many fancy words you use. No matter what you say and do, this fact won't change.

So, I am not interested in your philosophical rants. The only thing I am interested in is the answer to a simple question: why would I pay $38,000 only to be able to watch number on the screen?

In a similar way, blockchain secure all the bitcoin transactions. The bank notes can be printed by the government making its value less with more increase in supply but in case of bitcoin, its value will keep on increasing because of its limited supply. Think if you hold 1000$ in dollar and 1000$ in bitcoin (which you call numbers) from 2010, you would have become millionaire by now. This is the potential of bitcoin which you are repeatedly ignoring.

ok.. this guy is being arrogently ignorant.

last time, just for fun

you are not buying the ability to watch a number.

you are buying a medium of exchange that has many features and benefits that has a cost.
that cost is somewhere between $35-$85k right now

depending on how available it is for you to get, either o-t-c, market or mining. is a deciding factor of convenience, ability and time it requires to get 1btc for the different methods.

EG if you live in kazahkstan you could probably find a way to get it for $37k instead of the market price of $39k
EG if you live in germany you wont want to get it from mining at $80k+, so instead prefer the market price of $39k

but no where, no place, no way can you get bitcoin for $2 . so the value of bitcoin is not $2
near everyone is willing to sell for atleast $35k. and make profit if they sell for more.

its not like there are 2 people rolling 14,000 dice each where by they both get a random number. of meaningless. each. and then agree on a middle.

instead its based on acquisition costs. that value between a current value window of $35k-$85k where diffferent regions have different price points. where some can buy it real cheap vs other places where its at a bit of a premium to other methods of acquiring

the reason they want it in the first place is a multitude of reasons.
the way that its a currency that offers different features that banks dont
the way that its a currency that offers different less restrictions than banks do
how you can hand it to another owner without needing to explain reasons
how you can buy things with it
how you can be the sole controller of transfers
how it is irreversible
how its immutable
how it does not rely on government involvement
how its deflationary, to hedge against inflation
you can treat it like a 'trust' without having to get a solicitor/lawyer to draw up 'trust documents'
you can use it like an off-shore tax shelter. store value without having to do any banking shuffling
keep it as a pension pot or assign it as inheritance without having to do complex Will's or contracts
.. and so on


here is the thing though..
take zimbabwe..
having a 1trillion Z$ is redeemable for??
nothing now

people in zimbabwe dont even use zimbabwe dollar. it broke. its finito

in the 1900's a US $10 bank note could buy 75 loaves of bread.
i guarantee you if you handed in a $10 bank note they would not redeem it for something that can buy you 75 loaves of bread
they have not secured value, they are not liable to you for 75 loaves of bread per $10 bank note

all you would get is another more crisp fresh smelling $10 note. which can only buy you the same 4 bread loaf value as today
if you hold it for 10 years. i guarantee you, you wont be able to buy more then 3 loaves of bread with it.

at best/worse you might decide to accept 1000 copper heavy coins. hoping to sell it for scrap for equivalent of 8 loaves of value(at best) but thats with the hassle of then trying to get someone to convert the scrap metal for value equivalent to loaves of bread, at scrap metal value

but government/banks are not securing value or liable to you for the 75 loaf value of the past.
nor are they securing or made liable to always give you 4 loaves of bread value for bank notes held today, in the future

the serial number of a trillion zimbabwe dollar bank note you admire so much as 'security' is worth not even a square millimetre of a single sheet of toilet paper.. meaning a trillion Zdollar bank note is not even worth wiping your ass with it.


yet 1btc (of many) that i got in 2012, which could get me 3loaves of bread, can now get me 15,600 loaves of bread.
because deflation is better than inflation.

i also used some coin to do trades, to secure funds for pension, some inheritance to nephews, and to pass funds through customs without having to hold a debit card or paper cash on me when travelling.. heck it even paid for the ticket and hotel...
i also paid rent with it, bought food with it. furniture and loads of other things,

heck a couple evenings a week, when people complain that my words are not grammatically precise, is because of a nice bottle of whiskey paid for in btc

There's nothing false. Redeemable means able to be bought back by the issuer. It doesn't mean able to be traded. If I buy a government bond on the market I didn't redeem that bond. Only the government can do that by paying me the face value of the bond. I see that you lack basic knowledge about finance. That's why you have all these misconceptions about fiat currencies. No, fiat currencies are not numbers. They are securities. Bitcoin is a number. And I am asking why would I pay an enormous amount of money for it? Try to answer this question instead of makings false claims about securities.

So, why would I pay $38,000 only to get the ability to watch number 1 on the screen?

ok you love the phrases "number 1" and "security" "liability"

but what is a bank note secured against.
saying a bank note is backed by another bank note is not security. its just a promise to swap crumpled paper for crisp paper 1:1
it doesnt protect against inflation or loss

it especially does not secure your value that in 30 years you can still buy the same amount of bread as now.
heck zimbabwe went through 4 different bank notes and each time within years it lost value very very very quickly
so much so that zimbabwe just gave up on its own currency and now people use Us/euro currency.

the zimbabwe dollar did not secure anything and citizens of zimbabwe did not get compensated for the banking faults

a zimbabwe dollar being backed only by another zimbabwe dollar does not protect the zimbabwe dollar

..

if you expanded it out a bit, that $10 is worth 1000 copper pennies valued at $20 scrap price.
but then bitcoin can be exchanged for an altcoin or other assets

if you expanded out a bit you could say that 7.25 us dollars is secured against minimum wage law. meaning even someone on the lowest paid job will get atleast 7.50 of bank money for their hours labour.

but then you will have to realise that right now:
bitcoins most efficient work per btc is $35k
bitcoins least efficient work per btc is $85k

but here is the thing.
bitcoin is not a random TXID with an output number which has a randomly chosen price of no value.

bitcoins value window is between $35k-$85k as explained before. in multiple ways in different posts
the price sits within the value window.

the value window is the backed value based on the cost.
much like how copper has a acquisition cost. gold has an acquisition cost.

where it varies in price depending on different factors that vary the price within their respective value windows

 

Winning and non-winning lottery tickets may be one of the worst ways to analogize USD with Bitcoin. May I assume you've made it?

This video gives a horrible example of how these two currencies differentiate. You keep using these buzzwords (e.g., “numbers”, “redeemable numbers” etc.) to achieve what exactly? Yes, any form of IOU is redeemable, congratulations for figuring this out.

The video doesn't explain why Bitcoin is meaningless. It just says that it's not redeemable, which is not true. Redeemable means that it can be exchanged for goods, services or money. Both assets and liabilities (IOUs) are redeemable.

You're repeatedly having false syllogisms. False conclusions.

Bank notes or numbers on my banking account secure the capital that I invested in them because the borrowers are forced, via collateral, to use these notes or numbers to repay their loans. Here you have video explaining that: https://youtu.be/p37Wg6h2PJ4

Or: https://youtu.be/aBl-O_3g_58

---

Yes, these euro units secure that you will recive the capital from the banking system and borrowers at the withdrawal of these units from the market. Check the videos linked above. You have two different approaches explaining this.

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

I don't know what you're trading it with, but when I buy a car I give these:


The fact that you can use it to buy securities, bonds, investment funds etc. does not make it anything beyond a currency. This is all it is. And it has value, because your government says so. If you found another way to make your transactions, then you'd have found out another currency. This is Bitcoin. And since it's entirely possible to buy any type of titles with a currency, you can do with Bitcoin too.

a $10 bank note is a security of what???
if you take it to a bank. what do you expect in exchange??
at best they will swap a dirty, tatty crumpled bank note for a crisp bank note. 1:1


if you lose a $10 bank note, a bank wont just re-reimburse you/compensate you for the hole in your pocket.

a bank note is no longer backed by gold.
if anything it can be considered backed by copper/nickel that puts a $10 bank note at relative exchange of about $20 worth of scrap metal pennies and 5c coins. but the inconvenience of holding such weight and counting coins when doing purchases means people dont like to accept 1000 pennies for a $10 value purchase even if they can scrap the 1000 pennies for $20 later.

when loans are taken out. its printing money(from nothing). where the receiver has to pay it back + interest
this then causes your $10 bank note to not be worth $10 value. because the moment it circulates. and you receive it as income from work. you are suppose to give $2(20%) of your income to the government in taxes. meaning your instantly at a 20% value loss, only able to buy $8 worth of goods.

if you take out a mortgage for $100k your basically going to have to give back $110k on a 2 year loan(5% interest per year)
so that $100k is also less than $100k value. because you need to do 130% labour to pay tax(20%) on new income and then pay it off with the remainder income+interest(10%).

what do you seriously expect bank notes to secure, what liability is it you are describing that banks have to you.

is not a "whatever ask the seller put" its actually the seller deciding what his costs were and what he can expect to sell for.
its where the buyer can look for different ways to obtain bitcoin away from the market and decide if the market price is near value or premium compared to other acquisition methods(otc/mining/scamming)

as for your need to explain how YOU see "liability/security"
take the Zimbabwean dollar.(1980-2009) it hyper inflated. and the government did not protect it at the 1:1 rate against the US $
in the end people had trillion Z$ worth less than a loaf of bread

I am not trading it with some pieces of paper but with security that give me the right to recive capital that the security issuers borrowed at security puting on the market. The higher a number on paper the more capital, that is utility value, will I receive at security withdrawal from the market. You must educate yourself how securities work to be able to understand what I am talking about. But here that's not the point given bitcoin is not a security. Bitcoin is literally a number. And I am asking why would I pay an enormous amount of money for it?

---

Bitcoin turned from basically nothing into a $38,000-number because people accepted whatever ask the sellers put on the market. I am not accepting it because I am a rational buyer. I am checking what I am buying. That's why I asked the questions.

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

Is that what Bitcoin really is to you? Have you gotten to know Bitcoin a little more deeply? What do you think is the reason why Bitcoin turned from basically nothing into a $38,000-currency? That, despite of a strong resistance from all directions, heavy criticisms, extreme labels, and so on. Do you think in buying Bitcoin people only buy a number registered and kept in the blockchain? Have you heard of any decentralized money? Have you heard of a tamper-proof, censor-proof, borderless currency? Have you heard of a currency whose supply is fixed, hard-coded, in the system?

Anyway, for argument’s sake, people give value to anything under the sun. It’s all about agreement. If a community agrees among themselves that this unique kind of leaf or that shiny kind of stone has value and could be used as a currency, it will have value. You have to take note that people worship a tree, a stone, or whatever.

Simple answer: you don't. Someone else will. Case closed.


Are you really saying that a grain of sand has no utilization capacity? That's just mind-blowing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand#Uses


That's the economy. Stop worrying about things you don't understand.

the reason why people view things as a medium of exchange is not just an agreement to give it value. its not 'lets pick a random number and agree'

its based on the value before it at the current and previous acquisition that gives it the current value

if it cost me $35k to mine bitcoin(cheapest on planet). then that is my bottomline value. i wont sell at a loss
if it cost me a days labour(say $80min-wage) to collect a rare stone. thats its min value. i wont sell at a loss

is someone else can get the same thing cheaper. so be it let them get it cheaper from that someone else. (early adopter that acquired it for under $35k)
but if majority of active traders all had a minimum above a certain level. then no one would value it for less than the minimum and so thats the minimum anyone can value it at.

some countries like US hobby miners on residential electric prices and no access to wholesale price asics. have a $51k mining value for obtaining bitcoin. but see they can get bitcoin for $39k on a open market. so thats what they do. they buy it for $39k
or they might be lucky to get it from a kazahkstan o-t-c trade privately for $37k. and so they do, they buy it for $37k

but right now no one is willing to sell for just $2, so the bottom value is not $2. its more above the $35k as bottom.

the speculation above the $35k minimum then becomes numerous factors, the need, desire effects. the convenience of acquiring it via this way(market) vs other ways(o-t-c/mining).
then other features are decided on the 'need' such as transferring value without bank middlemen asking questions or putting value limits on transfers.immutable transfer (no chargebacks), sole private key ownership (avoids middlemen asset seizure) and many things that make bitcoin  a better currency feature wise to bank notes

which then has the speculative price that can be volatile above the $35k bottomline
EG germany/bermuda wont mine as their costs are $80k plus right now, so they are more then happy to buy for $39k, they are ecstatic, getting a coin at half the cost of mining it.
kazahkstan can mine if for $35k so some dont see $39k as exceptional value. but some see the convenience of just buying in 10 minutes 1btc which would normally take them weeks to mine enough satoshi's to get 1btc for $35k. so convenience makes some still willing to buy for $39k
america are happy to buy too. as their mining costs are over $40k, though some existing US industrial asic farms at $41k cost, think its inconvenient to shut down their asics temporarily to just buy. so they temporarily still mine and hedge the risk by mining to accumulate because they know the price will rise to cover it later.

bitcoins $35k value, $39k price are not just randomly chosen out of thin air.
medium of exchange value is not just suddenly $10bank note is worth 4 loaves of bread.
its calculated by many assumptions. such as a baker taking 45minutes cooking time plus 10 minutes prep labour and 80c of ingredients for 4 loaves. means he wont sell bread for less than a $10 bank note

a baker does not just pick a random price and say, ok ill take this number today. he will take value that meets or exceeds his cost

You're gravely mistaken if you think that this is an exclusive feature of the dollar. It can happen to every currency. You still don't answer to my question, though. You said that you can multiply your dollars, but this doesn't answer on why you would trade your car with some pieces of paper.

Because with a million dollars, either cash or digital, I get the ability to recive capital at the dollar withdrawal from the market, which is at loans repayments/liquidations. Dollar is a security. Securities are shares in capital that the security issues borrowed and have the liability to return. Bitcoin on the other hand is not a security. It is literally a number. You can consider whatever you want, but bitcoin will still be only a number. Hence the question.