Topic: Can you answer a couple of questions to a potential bitcoin buyer? - page 12. (Read 1782 times)

I think nothing. I am just saying what I see. I see that issuers of the securities return holders the capital at the securities withdrawal. That's the purpose of the securities. That's how they are utilized. At their puting on the market the capital is borrowed, and at their withdrawal the capital is returned.

Given that bitcoin is not a security one can utilize it via its intrinsic value, like all non securities, that is, economic goods, are utilized. The intrinsic value of bitcoin is watching number on a screen. The bitcoin system exists only to provide the holders with this "watching" and to transfer it between people. First the miners invest electricity to make the system running, and the system rewards them by giving them the ability to watch a number on the screen. Then, they sell this "watching" to someone else. Currently, people ask $37,000 for it. I am simply asking why would I pay so much money for something like that?

dont watch the txid.
dont watch a bank note serial number.

you pretend all you can do is look at a number for bitcoin. but thats just as naively as me saying all i can do is look at a bank note serial number.

if you think bitcoin is just a number as you would have to then think a bank note is just a number. you would realise there is more to it in both cases than a number

if all you can see is a txid or a bank note serial number, then you are looking at the wrong thing. so stop looking at it. take your eyes off of it and realise the other things you can do with bitcoin and bank notes.

by the way. banks are not liable to you for $10
if you lose a bank note, a bank wont compensate you

if $10 bank note can buy you 4 loaves of bread, but banks push inflation to only be 2 loaves of bread at retail for $10. the bank will not give you 4 loaves when you surrender $10 to the bank.
the most they will do is give you a crisp $10 in replacement for the rank, sticky, dirty old $10.
they wont even give you 2 compensatory loaves if you show them a retail receipt of 2 loaves for $10

what you are buying is not the txid or the serial number. what you are buying is a unit of measure that can be used to buy/spend/keep/invest.

with a bank note i guarantee you in 20 years time you can buy LESS bread with it. and no bank will compensate you for the missing bread
with bitcoin i guarantee you in 20 years time you can buy MORE bread with it.

as for liability.
with bank notes. the moment you receive $10 income. your suppose to declare 20%($2) of it as tax. meaning your at an instant 20% loss of value

with bank notes. when you receive $10 as a loan. your suppose to pay back $11 in 2 years (5% interest).

you are never going to get 4 loaf value with a bank note. the banks do not owe you anything.

I am not crying. I am stating the facts that securities are utilized at the time of their withdrawal from the market by providing their holders the capital that the issuers of securities were liable to return. I am also stating that bitcoin is not a security. So the only possible way anyone can utilize bitcoin is by watching a number on a screen. What I am asking is why would I pay $37,000 for watching number "1" on the screen. So, it's pretty simple.

you can cry about how you just see a bank note serial number and thats the only utility you see, watching the serial number.. forgetting the real utility of bank notes

you can cry about how you just see a share certificate serial number and thats the only utility you see, watching the serial number.. forgetting the real utility of shares

you can cry about how you just see a stock certificate serial number and thats the only utility you see, watching the serial number.. forgetting the real utility of stocks.

..
so the real question is
why are you seeing beyond a bank notes serial number?? and trying to find a bank notes utility. but ignorantly and arrogantly trying too hard to only see a txid and think its the only thing you can do

You're just describing bitcoin. You can describing it from now until eternity, but after I pay $37,000 for it, I am still only able to watch number "1" on the screen. That's all the utility I get for paying such an enormous amount of money. Your descriptions mean nothing to me. They cannot change facts. These descriptions are essentially just psychological rationalizations of those who bought bitcoin blindly, without checking what they are actually buying.

Regarding, a bank note. It's a security by which a banking system has liability to it's holder, just like a stock and a bond certificates are securities by which their issuers have such liability. As such they have nothing to do with bitcoin. No entity has liability to you when you hold bitcoin.

i know you are thinking you are just buying a "number 1" and watching it. but you are not
you are ignoring its utility..

you are acting as if a bank note is just a serial number which you just watch and see the amount of loaves of bread it can buy deminish each year. where all you want to talk about is the serial number vs bread loaf value.


firstly its utility is not just "number 1"
deflationary
unlike bank notes that can print endlessly meaning inflation allows you to buy less bread per $10 bank note per year/decade. bitcoin supply halves every 4 years meaning less NEW coins every 4 years where that equates to deflation which means people would sell more loaves of bread for less coin as time goes on

remittance
you dont need to go to western union and explain why you are sending $38k to your relative in another country, with bitcoin you just make a transaction without having to explain who you are or the other person or the reason for the transfer.
its a currency without the banks. i can buy pizza, rent, a car, and hundreds of thousands of other things without needing to disclose bank details or reasons for payment.

monitoring
unlike bank accounts(like remittance) that need ID and question purpose of transactions. there is also no flagging of spending over 0.3btc(~$10k). you can send as little or as much as you like. no questions asked

security
unlike bank accounts where banks can seize funds, as long as your the only private key holder of the 'number 1' only you can move it. there is no chargeback scamming. no fractional reserve. no 90day refund policy. . once its moved. its moved, end of.
also unlike art, oil,wheat. where you are stuck with flame risking asset, which if it burns its gone.
all you need to store is the private key for security. you can store your private key in multiple safe places, in multiple forms. where as art is a single instance which doesnt like fire.

supply.
unlike gold that was said to have a 190k tonne cap. and now with asteroid mining in near future that cap has evaporated. bitcoin will only have (actually less than) 21million 'number 1'.

yes its not like commodity. (wheat,oil, gold) where its a raw material used to make other products
yes its not like a stock/share(value of company holding)

its an asset. like collectables, currencies.
yes its not an attractive collectable asset like jewellery or art. but here is the thing, its a asset currency. with better utility than fiat currencies

most of the aesthetic features of collectable assets do not convert the aesthetics feature into the market price.
take gold.
if it cost only $2 to mine gold in a back yard using only a spoon and a coffee filter. the market would speculate only at $2-$5
however because it costs over $900 to mine gold, the market speculates between $900-$2k

yes there are many factors that change the 'demand' decision of valuing it nearer the $900 or nearer the $2k speculative price inside the value window. where some of those decision might be based on desire/aesthetics/etc. but the aesthetics dont affect the $900-$2k window.

you have to understand the underlying value window.

bitcoin sits at around $35k-$85k value window today due to the cheapest mining cost vs the most expensive mining cost today.
iceland/kazahkstan($35k)       bermuda/german($85k)

lets say in america
hobby miners mining in residential area's have a mining cost of $51k
industrial asic farm mining has a mining cost of $41k

so right now. the speculative price for americans make it more desirable to buy it for $38k today, rather then slowly accumulate it from mining at more cost($41k-$51k)
china, kazahkstan, iceland prefer to mine...  germany, japan, europe, america prefer to buy

most of bitcoins volatile PRICE within the value window. is not based on aesthetics. its based on the acquisition value of whats cheapest way to get bitcoin.
where by the reason people want it vary based on its utility,security, features as a asset currency. and where bitcoin is more deflationary than golds 'asset' class investment market.

inshort. when asteroid miners bring tonnes of gold back in 2040, golds value will DROP. because tonnes of extra gold per year is occurring more then earth mining. (earth mining per year 3tonne ->asteroid mining 100tonne per starship load)
yet bitcoins production would be 32x less than todays rate(6.25 -> 0.1953125 per block)

You are now just describing things. I know what gold, a picture or crude oil is. What I am asking is this. One ounce of gold, in jewelry for e.g., or watching a sunset picture, has much higher utility value than watching number "1" on the screen of a mobile phone. Because that's all the utility you get after purchasing bitcoin - you are able to watch a number on the screen. Yet, one has to pay $37,000 to for this. And only $1,800 or a couple of bucks for the former.

So, why would I pay an enormous amount of money only to get the ability to watch number "1" on the screen?

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If it is easier for you, try to view my questions as rhetorical.

You don't have to bother looking for difficult answers, because the point is to look at the usefulness of an item and the value it contains over time. If you own 1 Bitcoin today with a goal of 10 years into the future, it's not only a huge benefit but rather a part of maintaining sustainable adoption. But would you be interested if you really don't have the taste and intention to know the aesthetic value and advantages of Bitcoin.

The problem with you is that you do not want to buy bitcoins and therefore find a way to satisfy your mind with lame excuses. After buying bitcoin, you can watch that your wealth will grow as the bitcoin price increases over time. Buying any other commodity or assets will not benefit you as much as bitcoin.
Better you go and watch your girlfriend and stop wasting your time on this forum.

There are thousands of posts on this forum that can answer all your questions, so the only question is do you want to invest your time in learning something about Bitcoin or will you spend your whole life looking for rational answers to why you should invest in Bitcoin or not? People like you find it hard or almost impossible to explain why Bitcoin has value for me and some other people, and for you it's just number 1 worth $37 000 which you compare to a picture of a sunset that is really worth a few $ because any child can paint that on a piece of paper with an ordinary pencil.

You do not take into account the uniqueness, cryptography technology, proof of work, decentralization and everything that makes Bitcoin valuable in the eyes of every investor. I won't tell you to invest in Bitcoin, I'm not a financial expert and I don't want to play with anyone's money, but I can give you free advice - take paper and colored pencils, draw a sunset and save yourself a few dollars, and then try to sell that same drawing for $37 000. If you succeed in this, you will understand why Bitcoin has value

a pretty good choice, because there are indeed some things we need to do and we avoid.
when asking questions and explaining anything related to bitcoin it would be great but with a note to those who really want to know and at least have thoughts of buying.
but explaining to people who don't like all forms of bitcoin even if an explanation is done logically and uses data and facts it will only be in vain because they certainly will not accept it

Bullshit. There is no answer that will satisfy you, even if Satoshi himself comes here and answers all your questions. As I said, your mind is set and it giving any sort of pro bitcoin argument would be a total waste of time.

Ah, and that is your problem right there:  "so low a utilization capacity".

You can't see its utilizations, for some reason unknown to us,  or you don't seem to have the capacity to see the capacities within bitcoin.  And for this reason alone you may never accept any price for a bitcoin, let alone 40k, 50k, etc.  A simple deduction.

The rest of us see many reasons, utilizations of bitcoin, and so it is easy for us to see that a price of $37,000 is not all that much.

If you would want to read a little more, you'd know that gold's utility cannot explain its high price. Its price is derived from scarcity and hoarding, not so much from its utility.
Just go and ask your government why is your country keeping (hoarding) gold. Is it for its electric properties, is it that they want to make jewelry, or it's because it's scarce?

But you don't care about this, since your aim is to... I don't know, troll, or scare newbies, or something like this.

Ah, the classic unit bias problem that has been talked about thousands of times now. This is why I'm an advocate for using lower denominations like sats — to get the newbs away from the likes of XRP and get in on bitcoin.

It's like saying: "why buy a 1kg gold bar if it's only 1 gold bar?"

Because gold is a boomer asset and has performed bad throughout the years, a sunset picture is highly illiquid, crude oil has a very unknown supply inflation(like gold), etc etc. But hey, if you want to invest in these stuff, then go for it!

"If you don't believe it or don't get it, I don't have the time to try to convince you, sorry." - Someone someone.

Bitcoin is currency, so you could utilize it just like how you utilize fiat. But IMO most practical usage are to protect privacy, evade censorship or protection from authoritarian government. Few random example,
https://bitcointalk.org/?topic=137.0
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/news/edward-snowden-reveals-he-used-bitcoin-to-leak-nsa-documents-nearly-10-years-ago/ar-AAQZQES
https://www.bitcoininsider.org/article/129955/afghan-women-have-been-able-use-bitcoin-flee-afghanistan


It's like comparing apples with oranges. If you prioritize aesthetics, consider "physical" Bitcoin or another goods.

That what you're talking about is not utilizing but trading. Everything can be traded. The question is why would one pay an enormous amount of money for a single unit of a product that has an extremely low utilization capacity?

Sure I am a potential buyer. But only if someone providers a rational answer to my questions.

Looking at some of your previous threads ( "Bitcoin Doesn’t Exist, Or How Satoshi Nakamoto Tells Lies To People", "Bitcoin is like a token of Trump's bankrupt casino" and "Bitcoin Exists Only in Satoshi's Imagination" ), you are not potential bitcoin buyer, so no point really getting into any sort of argument with you, your mind is set. Or to quote Satoshi, "If you don't believe it or don't get it, I don't have the time to try to convince you, sorry."

First some short explanation, and then the questions.

If I bought stocks, bonds or fiat currencies I hold securities by which those who put them on the market, have the liability to me. Stocks are put on the market by companies. Bonds by corporations and governments. Fiat currencies by banking system and borrowers. By putting their securities on the market, the said entities essentially borrowed capital from the market, which is why they have the liability to return it back. This happens when they withdraw securities from the market. So if I am a market participant holding their securities, the capital is returned to me when companies buyback stocks or liquidate the business, when corporations or governments pay me bond's face value, and when the banking system and borrowers sell me the seized collaterals or goods, services or labour to get currency units for liquidating the issued loans. Numbers in this case only represent the amount of capital a security issuer borrowed and has the liability to return.

Bitcoin on the other hand, is not a security. Its issuer/issuers have no liability to withdraw bitcoins from the market, and in the process, return the capital to bitcoin holders. So if I hold bitcoin, I basically hold number for being number. I hold a product similar to gold, a picture, wheat or crude oil. People buy these products for what they are, for their intrinsic value. And unlike with securities, once people bought them, no entity has the liability to buy them back in the future. So, the only way people can benefit from them is by utilizing their intrinsic value. But, here a crucial problem arises regarding bitcoin.

Gold I can utilize for jewelry, electronics, dentistry and so on, a picture for pleasing my aesthetic senses, wheat for making all sorts of foods, crude oil for manufacturing everything from plastic to petroleum. Besides, a single unit of these products is pretty cheap. However, in the case of bitcoin the only way I can utilize it is by watching it. That's all. Once I buy bitcoin, my wallet application reads a number from the blockchain, and shows it on the screen of my mobile phone. And all I can do, is to watch that number. To watch it like a picture is watched. When I sell bitcoin to other people, the new holders can also just watch a number on the screen. So, essentially no human being on Earth is capable to do anything after purchasing bitcoin, but to watch a number. Obviously, watching a number is not as aesthetically pleasing as watching a picture of a beautiful girl or a sunset.

And now the questions: if I can purchase a picture of a sunset for a couple of bucks on Shutterstock and watch something aesthetically rich, why on Earth would I purchase number "1" for $37,000 and watch something aesthetically poor? Why would I pay so much money for a single unit of a product that in comparation to gold, a sunset picture, wheat or crude oil has so low utilization capacity?