Topic: Can you answer a couple of questions to a potential bitcoin buyer? - page 4. (Read 1704 times)

Again, what's irrational and what's not is not down to you to decide.

What if I told you that it's irrational to not care about inflation? What if I told you that I do care if it's minus a “few” percent?

Because you can't. Setting up your own altcoin means you're outside Bitcoin, where everybody agrees. You still haven't acknowledged that Bitcoin is worth so much, because of consensus. You can't comprehend that this is what people evaluate and not numbers in a database.

Wait, wait wait!!! Hold your horses. You said "without the need of other people". And now, you are talking about "someone", "them", "they", "offer"... So, you are contradicting yourself. But that's OK. In that way you proved my point nicely. Thanks.

 Without other people voluntarily doing something for you, your bitcoin is worth less than a dust particle. On the other hand, in my fiat system, other people are forced by the banks to do something for me - give me things I can live off of, so they get notes or deposits for their loan repayments.

So replacing the latter system for the former is irrational behavior. That was the whole point of this topic.

if you created your own altcoin.

you would then need to make that altcoin work. need to mine it so that blocks are produced.
because you are just one person. with one cell phone. your altcoin wont make blocks for a long while. it would take months and years for all them missing blocks to trigger difficulty drops sufficiently enough for your cell phone to start mining a block successfully and frequently, so that you can make a payment to yourself or someone else.

by that point if you could get someone to be part of your network. they too could mine. and they would then value the altcoin based on how easy it is to acquire your altcoin by different means.

so if you were trying to offer your altcoin to them for $40k. they would decline because they are at a cellphone mining speed too, meaning 0.01c to mine fresh coin. so why would they want your $40k coin, when they can mine on your altcoin network for much less
because they may not want to go through the effort of mining they might go upto 0.02c or they may think about making their own altcoin and see the time and effort so they may go upto 0.03c, keck they might offer you 0.04c rather than 0.01c to another altcoin making person who doesnt have the same features. because the features(you copied from bitcoin) have more utility then someone elses altcoin missing the features.
but its the combination of features and costs of utility that build up a valuation..
..
now do you see why i mentioned the mining value stuff many posts ago.
now do you see why i mentioned the ease of use factor many posts ago
now do you see why i mentioned the features many posts ago
now do you see why i mentioned the benefits many posts ago
now do you see why i mentioned the utility many posts ago

its a combination of all factors

your altcoin might have the same features of protocol. but it lacks other features, like its acceptance by retailers like its mining cost, like its ease of use, even things like your altcoin is only mined by 1-2 entities meaning the centralisation risk of it is high, making it less appealing

right now there are dozens of ripped off altcoins copying bitcoins same protocol. depending on a combination of many factors that make them atleast viable to be used by some and not used by others, and the cost associated with it differ depending on different mining costs. and also the ease of use with others and retailers make some of those rip offs vary in price. some from as little as a penny. some for a few hundred dollars. but none come close to genuine bitcoins value because bitcoin can do more then what the rip offs can

EG
they/you are not buying the serial number of a bank note.

if you had a bank note and decided to copy it(counterfeit) retailers wont accept it. if then you try to convince someone to accept it, they would have to evaluate the cost of your photocopy vs their own ability to photocopy. and their own risk of retail acceptance. and in the end they might offer you a penny for your counterfeit bank note.

or they would look at a genuine medium of exchange that has actual costs involved and ease of spending. and just use that one
even if the ease of use the genuine medium of exchange comes at a higher cost. because of its utility and features that make it better than the issues, headaches and risks of your silly altcoin/counterfeit bank note

Bravo! Finally! That's what  I wanted to hear.

So, I can just copy/past the entire bitcoin system, give my coins the same name and I have all the features and utility you mentioned without the need of other people.

Why then would I pay even a dime for these features and utilities? Moreover, I can have as many coins as I like. Why would I pay $40K for a single coin if I can have the whole package for free?

out of the many many features and utilities. you specifically asked about the features and utility without the need of other people.
so..
i can hold it much like you can hold a bank note.

but the better use of holding bitcoin is that i can back it up so that if i lose one copy of the key i can retrieve it elsewhere.
if you lose your bank note.. its gone.. and nobody accepts a copy of a bank note (counterfeit)

if i cant trust keeping a paper key safe. i can secure it in many ways.
bitcoin does not need middle men custodians to secure bitcoin..
bank notes need banks to hold it to protect it against fear of loss by giving it to them in custody

bitcoin does not need insurance against bank failure, the decentralised nature means it doesnt need banks, nor insurance
if bank notes were secure by themself there would be no need for bank custody. and no need for FDIC or bailouts.

bitcoin secures itself so no need for custodians or insurance
banks need insurance but even when banks fail the insurance is not invoked. elitists prefer other methods which cause customer value loss just to prevent other elitist loss(the FDIC didnt pay out because they couldnt. thats why the tax payers bailed out the banks instead)

i do not need someones else signature or authorisation to pay them. they do not have to be awake when i pay them.
with a bank note you have to give it to them, meet them
with a bank account the bank has to phone you to ensure you are the real person making the transfer. and are limited to how much you can transfer without question

i can move bitcoin to another wallet i own without limit or restriction or permission or question
try and move bank money from a bank account into your wallet. ATM limits are $500, bank teller limits are $1000 before being questioned, delayed, limited

i dont even need to use the blockchain to move bitcoin.
i can pass someone a private key. a passphase seed. i can make a QR code or even a cryptic artwork. heck i can put the key into a physical coin or engrave it into metal. i can pass around bitcoin in many ways.

if you wanted to send bank notes internationally, even by postal service. even they have limits and insurances because they cannot guarantee it.
bitcoin doesnt need limits or insurance. it just works

if you wanted to set up a trust requiring majority vote (eg 3 of 5) you dont NEED a lawyer/solicitor or notary or bank manager to set it up.

other features/utility
heck if i know a person well i can think up 12 words they know well too. put bitcoin onto that associated address and just say some encrypted message via a private message app like
"what type of guitar did your dad play" -acoustic
"what did your sister want to do for a job" -actress
"what did you ask me for on your birthday" -apology

heck you can even have fun with it. like offer some out as a competition/prize. testing peoples knowledge where the first person to get all answers right wins
like
"what was first bought with 10,000btc" - pizza
"whats the pseudonym of bitcoins inventor" - satoshi
"what do ignorant people like antithesis think bitcoin is" - number
and so on
you dont even need them to reply to you to win, they can take it by themselves
 

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now here is the thing.
even though bitcoin does not NEED custodians to protect it from loss (copy keys in many ways)
even though bitcoin does not NEED co-signing authorisation

these features are available for bitcoin as a choice. so if you WANT to have a co-signer. you can. if you want to put it into custody you can. but with bitcoin you dont NEED to

It's not my flip flop of ignorance. It's your flip flop of semantics. But I know how to end this quickly: if bitcoin has value, then answer what can you do with it without other people? If you need other people for bitcoin to have value then the value is not in bitcoin but other people. So, what it is? What has value? Bitcoin or other people? If the latter, who is liable to do something so you can utilize value. If the former, how do you utilize bitcoin for your benefit without other people?

the silly thing is..

now even blackhatcoiner has turned into copying antithesis flip flop of ignorance..

when asking about the value(economic) and values(features and utility) of bitcoin
        i give examples of utility and features (values)
    but then the question becomes 'but its just a number made of nothing with no cost...' (value)
        so then i explain the cost of the creation(value)
    but then question flips to but the cost is not explaining the utility.. (values)
repeat infinity loop

ill let the flip flip in and out of their loop of  asking for and ignoring value values, or values value game
they can break their own inifinity loops when they get bored of their game

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funny part is that both antithesis and blackhatcoiner are thinking that bitcoin has no value.
both thinking its just 2 people agreeing on a medium and setting some randomly chosen number of value to assign it.

ignoring the acquisition value of the holder and his loss of utility values by giving it up as his bases of him setting up his sell price/offer.
EG if its very complicated to acquire it again in the future. im less likely to give it up in a sell or swap for goods. thus i will only sell/swap for goods if conditions are right to account for the utility value i might lose by no longer having it.
EG i wont buy a house because although a house appreciates in value every 10 years, bitcoin appreciates in value in 4 years.
EG i can sell the same house in 10 years. but trying to get the same amount of btc in 10 years would require alot more expense, effort to get back to same state as 10 years prior. so id rather keep the btc until i decide i no longer have use of it
(plus other features and benefits of use, listed in prior pages)
.
the buyer can see how easy/hard it is to acquire(mining, market, offering labour, goods) and decide how much premium value its worth to acquire if its harder to acquire by other means
EG a buyer might pay a premium on 'local bitcoins' because he can acquire it easier without kyc of markets(exchanges)
EG a buyer might pay a premium on the market because its faster and less of a headache than trying to mine it

its not 2 people dipping their hand into a hat and playing a raffle of random numbers to find an agreed price. there is more to the decision of value then just thinking up some nonsense random number

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as for saying that banks have security to give $10 bank note for $10 bank note. its not an insurance against fire, theft, loss.
burn a bank note and see if a bank will reimburse you,, they wont. they have no insurance or liability to protect you in that way.
all you get a a crisp bank note if you hand them a crumpled but complete bank note. and they can charge you for it.
thats all you get

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the problem with their theory that bitcoin does not have this same promise.. is that bitcoin does. thats how payment systems work.. input output contract of a transaction is the promise of the swap of one utxo for another utxo

banks and bitcoin do not promise they will exchange a bank note or btc for a fixed bread loaf value.

they just take a unit and give you a unit of the same form. thats not fixed value security with bank fiat because if you held a bank note from 2009 (5 bread loaf value) you wont get 5 bread loaves for it now. (inflation  is now 4 loaves)
banks have no security against inflation, no fixed value promise.

however bitcoin has proven that bitcoin from 2009 are worth more now(deflation)

value is more secure in bitcoin then it is with fiat
deflation is better than inflation

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a pick pocket does not even need a wrench to steal a bank note.

imagine i had a bank note in my left back pocket. and my bitcoin app on my phone on my right back pocket.
and a pick pocket takes both.. without a wrench

i have totally lost the bank note. but i can retrieve my bitcoin.
because my phone is passcoded. and i have a backup key.

which is more secure.. bitcoin
..

then try to actually destroy all proof of the existence of my coin. you need more then a wrench to do that, yet i can just light a match to destroy all proof of your bank notes existance

which is more secure.. bitcoin

No matter how you cut or transfer bitcoin, your answer is still a tautology. And if the only reason you trade things you can live off of for BTC is because you can sell BTC based on faith, that reason is irrational.

"Future purchasing power" is irrelevant. I care only that I'll own things I can live off of. Whether this is minus a few percent doesn't bother me. Inflation is less of a problem than a faith.
I already addressed this scarcity myth. "To the moon" prophecy I would rather not comment.

Simple. It's a scarce product. There are only 21 million bitcoins and if you can get a full bitcoin then you're gonna be amongst the 1% at some point in your life.

It could go to zero but it is more probable it will go to a million before that

But yet, it's the only product that can be cut into millions of pieces with a click, transferred from one part of the planet to the other in seconds, be easily verified, resistant to censorship and completely durable. So, I assume that if lots of people think same like I do, that it does look like a currency, then I see no reason on not using it likewise. Call it belief.

What's so bad if we want to deal with it?

Good, that's a feature. It's a feature of free market. You still deny that you don't know your future purchasing power whether there are collaterals or not. You've only focused that, on paper, you'll own an amount.

(You used the word “voluntary” vaguely)

Sorry, but yes. I consider your explanations irrational. For e.g. you answered that the reason I should buy bitcoin is because I am "getting the ability to use a currency." The word "use" obviously means "to sell it". This is irrational for the following reason: everything that is bought on the market is in the same time sold. So your answer is basically a tautology: you should buy a product because in that way you are getting the ability to sell it. No shit, Sherlock. I didn't know that. lol

"Another why to see things" can also be irrational. I've explained why replacing capital based system for faith based system is irrational. In short, If you trade things you can live off of, for the ones you cannot live off of, and after that, the only possible way to get the first things back is if some unknown person voluntarily decides to do so, that's irrational. You can call this "another why to see things", but it is irrational.

Then you say: ". I don't believe people will ever give me things voluntarily. I'll have to pay them in our agreed currency." But the agreement is obviously voluntary. People are not liable to return you the things you can live off of once you bought bitcoin. That's the whole point.

None, unless you think what I'm doing is irrational.

I'm very sure I don't ignore your point. I've understood what you're trying to say and I'm explaining you that there's another way to see things in life.

This is just your opinion.

I'm protected by the collaterals, but who's gonna protect me from inflation?

Wrong. I don't believe people will ever give me things voluntarily. I'll have to pay them in our agreed currency.

I never said that, you made it up. All I said is that it's a hedge to inflation and I like it as a concept. It fits my character.

Exchanging stuff using Bitcoin does create new value, as it contributes to division of labour. (Which in continuance, creates value)

But, Bitcoin is not such scheme, because:

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But, cost has nothing to do with the utility. Just because there's a cost in the procedure of extracting something from the ground doesn't make it useful.

Banks supposedly consider both the same, whether it's a bank note or a promise of a bank note. When you own a $100 bill, you can redeem it for a $100 worth liability. So, I'd say that you can actually “buy” other people's debt with cash, again if we consider that banks consider both the same. Therefore, you're indirectly owed if you hold their money.

No need to comment the example you've given... No one's gonna redo the work for the last 510,000 blocks. Ever heard of the $5 wrench attack?

I suggest you test that assertion by creating one.

Bitcoin has zero cost in creation. It's created by a mere program function.

YOU are ignoring that bitcoin has a cost in its creation and acquisition

and there is a HUGE cost in trying to destroy if from existence.

need a match to figure out which one has no security?

You can keep ignoring that you are in a zero-sum and faith based system which you can exist only if someone voluntarily enters it. Whatever misinformation about the banks you repeat, whatever you say about PoW or bitcoin the fact will stay that entering such system is irrational behavior. That's also the reason why you are unable to provide a rational answer to my questions from OP.

PoS coins have no creation cost. so those would actually follow your idea that its just a number(like fiat) where it has no cration cost, but gains value by people finding labour/goods to make swaps with it

but PoW coins actually have a cost that comes with its creation. and due to other features and benefits, they have utility too

fiat does not have the 'borrowers liability/security' you think it does. you are owed nothing when you hold a bank note

bank notes value does not come from its creation. but from someone else working to then give it value after creation in exchange for goods/services.
thus a simple medium of exchange with no underlying backing(Pos coins and fiat)

bitcoin has underlying backing right from its creation, which is then strengthened by the work to add more confirmations. and also new confirms when its being spent.

then.. it becomes used as a medium of exchange ontop of that where people swap labour, goods for it(like fiat)
so bitcoin has more to it than fiat does


i have bitcoin from 2012, and to undo the proof of its creation. it requires ~510,000 blocks to be undone to remove trace of my coin. and then another >510,000blocks to be rebuilt ontop to legalise that change into existence by overtaking the network
it costs over $240k to make ONE block right now.. or taking the cost over the last 10 years
meaning it costs $5,691,784,177,413.87 to do that

i can destroy proof of your bank notes existence with a match, and your bank wont just give you another. you have no security

now if you want to think they are just number.. try it
take a bank note out of your pocket. and put it beside your screen
then find a random bitcoin on your screen...

try and destroy the bitcoin, then light your bank note on fire... see which one survives and which one can be destroyed

Evidence for what?

Since you are trolling, you'll ignore all the evidences in the world, no matter how good it is, aren't you? 

I feel somewhat sorry for all these people who ignored the "don't feed the troll" rule and tried to answer you nicely.
However, if you go with this... tone, you may end up with no people to answer this... little game.

How more excuses are you ready to produce to rationalize irrational behavior? You are completely ignoring the crucial point I am making and just repeat irrelevant generic phrases. Replacing a capital based system with a faith based system is irrational behavior. In a banking system, once you trade things you can live off of, you are protected with the capital (collaterals) of the borrowers to be able to return those things. If you replace that system with bitcoin system you are left only with faith that people will voluntarily return you the said things. You behave irrationally because you believe you will get more than you invested. But this believe is also irrational because this is not the system of stocks where capital is used to create new value. Bitcoin system doesn't create new value but only redistributes what is already there. So you can make profit only like in ponzi schemes. Entering into faith based system only for that reason is irrational.