Topic: Can you answer a couple of questions to a potential bitcoin buyer? - page 9. (Read 1782 times)

You people are the problem. You are unable to answer what is bitcoin and what I actually get after buying it.

Bitcoin is P2P electronic cash that is valuable over legacy systems because of the monetary autonomy it brings to its users. Bitcoin seeks to address the root problem with conventional currency: all the trust that's required to make it work -- Not that justified trust is a bad thing, but trust makes systems brittle, opaque, and costly to operate. Trust failures result in systemic collapses, trust curation creates inequality and monopoly lock-in, and naturally arising trust choke-points can be abused to deny access to due process. Through the use of cryptographic proof, decentralized networks and open source software Bitcoin minimizes and replaces these trust costs.

but YOU are the one that is not listening to the sales men when they explain its features that are different to other things.
you just say "its a product on a bench" repeatedly, not wanting to accept its utility and function and benefits beyond "a product"

if i showed you a fiat analog phone, a crypto smartphone you wont want to hear about the different things they can do.
you dont even want to admit they are phones. you just say "its a product"

I'm very able of replying to your questions. You're just perpetually denying them, because they're not favoring you. You've spared so much time to create videos explaining why Bitcoin is meaningless and therefore, you want to be biased towards it.

So if you are unable to answer my questions then simply don't reply. I am not interested in your sophistry.

I came here because here are the people that know bitcoin just like in a store there's a salesman that knows the products he sells. And when I ask this salesman about a particular product I am not interested why people buy or sell this product, but what is this product and what will I actually get after buying it. So if you are unable to answer my questions then simply don't reply. I am not interested in your sophistry.

We're not a store here, sir. We're making dialogue. We're not obligated to assist you.

Yes, that's my answer. That's the main reason people use Bitcoin. The fact that you don't like this answer doesn't make it not true. Allow me to tell you that not every person thinks exactly as you do.

Well, people are buying a Bugatti because they are able to utilize it. That's why cars exist in the the market in the first place. Because they have utilization capacity - they are able to be driven. The price then depends on how big this capacity is. So, people are not buying cars because they are tradable. Everything on the market is tradable by definition. And everything that is tradable is by definition means of exchange. You can't say: "a Bugatti costs $1M because it's tradable". That's stupid. It's the utilization capacity that matters. This is true for everything that is in the market. When buyers are checking a product they basically check its utilization capacity.

Utilization capacity of a security is how much value will the last holder of a security get from the issuer at the security withdrawal from the market. If for e.g. a bond issuer offers $1,000 face value that's the utilization capacity and the market price will be around that level. No one will pay you $1M for a bond with $1,0000 face value.


We know that bitcoin issuer/issuers don't withdraw bitcoin from the market to give something to the last bitcoin holders. So, bitcoin has zero utilization capacity in that sense. Bitcoin is not a security like bonds, stocks or fiat currencies are. Which means that bitcoin must have utilization capacity the same as economic goods have. And in bitcoin, this utilization capacity is the ability to be watched on the screen. It is not the ability to be driven, eaten, turned into energy or jewelry, etc. It's simply the ability to be watched. What I am asking is why would I pay $38,000 for that? People in this topic are ignoring this question. But instead, they repeat, in various ways, that bitcoin has generic feature of all things that exist on the market, that it is "tradable", that it is a "means of exchange", etc. Or they say bitcoin is easy to store and transfer. Well, a needle is tradable the same as a Bugatti. The needle is easier to store and transfer than a Bugatti. But would you trade the latter for the former? So, what I am interested to know is why would I give you a Bugatti for a needle? Why would I give you a thing with a huge utilization capacity for a thing with immensely small utilization capacity? Why would I give you a Bugatti for number "50"? Can you answer the question?

Numbers on my bank account are not useless because banks and borrowers are liable to use them to liquidate the isued loans. Every number in someone's bank account is someone else's loan. And loans need to be payd. The banks, via borrowers, withdraw numbers from people's banking accounts literally every minute and in that way pay the last number holders goods, services or labour of the borrowers. With new loans numbers are put back on people's accounts and the whole process repeats itself. Bitcoins are never withdrawan from people's accounts by the issuer. They always exist in people's accounts/wallets. Meaning, bitcoin circulates in the market like gold. But unlike gold, it's literally useless. All people can do with it is watching it on the screen in the form of a number. So, I am still waiting for the answer to my questions. Why would I pay you $38,000 for watching a number on the screen.

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Here, I also ask about a product - bitcoin. And your answer is: "You're paying any amount of dollars to use a currency that is different in character."

You're generally not interested into admitting you're wrong. You can't accept another mindset. I wasn't interested into talking to such person, but hey, at least I tried.

I am not interested in this kind of discussion.

Open your online banking app and you will see the same useless numbers which are also of intangible nature, cannot be eaten, driven, turned into jewelry, etc. These numbers are nothing more than pixels on a screen. You don't need them actually because they by themselves have zero "utilization capacity." However, you for some reason keep buying them and keep going to your job to earn more useless digits. The real reason is that you don't want money, you want products, goods, services, things of real utilization capacity, which the only way to acquire is with useless digits you previously earned with blood and sweat. Bitcoin is no different from any other money in this regard, it is useless as a product but still can be exchanged for real products. The only reason people wish to buy bitcoin is that it has a greater potential than fiat money to be exchanged for more goods and services in the future. If you for some reason don't want to wait, if you don't want to defer consumption for the sake of more consumption in the future, you don't need Bitcoin, just keep using fiat money that is perfectly designed for immediate gratification of your needs. It's all about your preferences and your mindset.

Well, people are buying a Bugatti because they are able to utilize it

That's why cars exist in the the market in the first place. Because they have utilization capacity - they are able to be driven.

The price then depends on how big this capacity is.

Everything on the market is tradable by definition.

You can't say: "a Bugatti costs $1M because it's tradable". That's stupid.

If for e.g. a bond issuer offers $1,000 face value that's the utilization capacity and the market price will be around that level. No one will pay you $1M for a bond with $1,0000 face value.

We know that bitcoin issuer/issuers don't withdraw bitcoin from the market to give something to the last bitcoin holders.

Bitcoin is not a security like bonds, stocks or fiat currencies are.

And in bitcoin, this utilization capacity is the ability to be watched on the screen

What I am asking is why would I pay $38,000 for that? People in this topic are ignoring this question.

Well, a needle is tradable the same as a Bugatti.

The needle is easier to store and transfer than a Bugatti. But would you trade the latter for the former?

Bitcoin turned from basically nothing into a $38,000-number because people accepted whatever ask the sellers put on the market. I am not accepting it because I am a rational buyer. I am checking what I am buying. That's why I asked the questions.

Can you answer the question?

Why are some people paying 1 million for a bugatti if they can have an audi cheaper? Why do they pay more for a lambo that uses audi parts than for an audi? Why people pay more for a bitcoin where they could have bitcoin cash for cheaper? Think about it.

You demand answers to be pushed down your throat instead of using your brain and coming up with them by yourself.

~snip~

And yet, that's the only answer. The only purpose of Bitcoin's existence is because it helps us make transactions in a different way.

You'll be able to use an internet currency that is censorship resistant, borderless, fast and online 24/7/365.

You'll be able to use an internet currency that is censorship resistant, borderless, fast and online 24/7/365.

the way that its a currency that offers different features that banks dont
the way that its a currency that offers different less restrictions than banks do
how you can hand it to another owner without needing to explain reasons
how you can buy things with it
how you can be the sole controller of transfers
how it is irreversible
how its immutable
how it does not rely on government involvement
how its deflationary, to hedge against inflation
you can treat it like a 'trust' without having to get a solicitor/lawyer to draw up 'trust documents'
you can use it like an off-shore tax shelter. store value without having to do any banking shuffling
keep it as a pension pot
assign it as inheritance without having to do complex Will's or contracts

First some short explanation, and then the questions.

If I bought stocks, bonds or fiat currencies I hold securities by which those who put them on the market, have the liability to me. Stocks are put on the market by companies. Bonds by corporations and governments. Fiat currencies by banking system and borrowers. By putting their securities on the market, the said entities essentially borrowed capital from the market, which is why they have the liability to return it back. This happens when they withdraw securities from the market. So if I am a market participant holding their securities, the capital is returned to me when companies buyback stocks or liquidate the business, when corporations or governments pay me bond's face value, and when the banking system and borrowers sell me the seized collaterals or goods, services or labour to get currency units for liquidating the issued loans. Numbers in this case only represent the amount of capital a security issuer borrowed and has the liability to return.

Bitcoin on the other hand, is not a security. Its issuer/issuers have no liability to withdraw bitcoins from the market, and in the process, return the capital to bitcoin holders. So if I hold bitcoin, I basically hold number for being number. I hold a product similar to gold, a picture, wheat or crude oil. People buy these products for what they are, for their intrinsic value. And unlike with securities, once people bought them, no entity has the liability to buy them back in the future. So, the only way people can benefit from them is by utilizing their intrinsic value. But, here a crucial problem arises regarding bitcoin.

Gold I can utilize for jewelry, electronics, dentistry and so on, a picture for pleasing my aesthetic senses, wheat for making all sorts of foods, crude oil for manufacturing everything from plastic to petroleum. Besides, a single unit of these products is pretty cheap. However, in the case of bitcoin the only way I can utilize it is by watching it. That's all. Once I buy bitcoin, my wallet application reads a number from the blockchain, and shows it on the screen of my mobile phone. And all I can do, is to watch that number. To watch it like a picture is watched. When I sell bitcoin to other people, the new holders can also just watch a number on the screen. So, essentially no human being on Earth is capable to do anything after purchasing bitcoin, but to watch a number. Obviously, watching a number is not as aesthetically pleasing as watching a picture of a beautiful girl or a sunset.

And now the questions: if I can purchase a picture of a sunset for a couple of bucks on Shutterstock and watch something aesthetically rich, why on Earth would I purchase number "1" for $37,000 and watch something aesthetically poor? Why would I pay so much money for a single unit of a product that in comparation to gold, a sunset picture, wheat or crude oil has so low utilization capacity?

And I am asking you: what utilization capacity do you offer me for my dollars? What is your answer?

It's like asking a salesman about the box that has $10,000 price on it, and he answers: : that's a product. "A product" is just a generic phrase.

Your answer is because this number is amedium of exchange. This is pretty irrational answer given that "a medium of exchange" is just a generic phrase.

What I want to know is what utilization capacity will I get for my dollars?