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Topic: Capitalism vs. Socialism - Make your argument here. (Read 21323 times)

full member
Activity: 798
Merit: 104
🎄 Allah is The Best Planner 🥀
They are both the same capitalism and socialism - it just depends on if your an arsehole or not. (not directed at anyone)

There are plenty of rich socialists and capitalists and plenty of poor socialists and capitalists.

Plenty of giving socialists and plenty of giving capitalists.

Plenty of selfish socialists and plenty of selfish capitalists.

I can see only one difference (in general) and its the wannabe's - wannabe capitalists struggle to be socialists or even want to even entertain the fact, because they cant be fully capitalist because they are failing at it terrible and cant believe they need help.

I accept as true with you that a socialist can never be capitalist. they're usually high-ranking people in society. The lower values of society have an impact on people. They both exploit and oppress the poor people of society in various ways for the sake of their own interests Currently its effects can't be noticed.
legendary
Activity: 2030
Merit: 1569
CLEAN non GPL infringing code made in Rust lang
I don't speak for all communists and there are a bunch of ways to answer that question but personally, I don't believe in seizing assets unless thats how you refer to taxes.  

I simply believe there is enough new wealth being created to make sure it gets distributed fairly amongst workers.   The economy grows each year but most of that growth is enjoyed by the 1% while wages stay stagnant.  If we simply saw that new wealth distributed evenly amongst workers, we wouldn't need to seize anything.  

Combine that with the fact that the US government creates new money all the time and most of that money goes to corporations and finds its way into the pockets of the uber rich.  I'd simply suggest that wealth goes to everyone.  There are a lot of democratic methods for achieving this like Universal basic income, education, healthcare, jobs, or housing.  None of those involve seizing assets from anyone.  

Quote
Evaluating the impact of QE1, which began in 2008, is nearly impossible.  At the time the Fed began rapidly expanding its balance sheet, a number of other events and policy changes were taking place. They included the banking bailout, the auto bailout, advent of zero interest rates, the stimulus package and an accounting change that allowed banks to hold assets on their books to maturity at cost rather than marking them to market. Had all of these taken place in the absence of QE1, how would the economy have performed?  Would it have recovered as it did?  At the time, it was anybody’s guess.

As you see, we print money to help the "economy" all the time.  I say we start printing money to help everyday people.

That sounds very cute in theory, but here is the issue: How exactly do you intend for the filthy rich to share? Will you appeal to the goodwill of their heart or...

You do it by force (coercion)?

In the end, this is the very central point about socialism, it is to employ force (State, Workers, Party, whatever). And after you do this, a whole new can of worms unleash. You are still to experience it but i have.

Once the property, capital, assets get "fairly re-distributed" (says who, a new bureaucrat who is suddenly very powerful?) Wealth creation stops, completely. If you make wealth, it will be taken from you, so why bother? However, there is now a bureaucrat who decides who eats twice and who eats thrice... Entrepreneurial mindset gives way to a mindset focused in "somehow" influence those bureaucrats in your favor. (Funny, this sounds a lot like the aristocrats in a Monarchy, hmmm i wonder why the dear leader can't never be peacefully replaced by anyone not chosen by themselves).

Welcome to the "Real Socialism" corruption machine. Incidentally, those factories put in the hands of the workers also don't have much incentive to be efficient or productive (their wealth will be "fairly re-distributed, remember?) or efficient (The State has to be "fair" to the workers) AND the central power usually assigns them a new "boss" anyway, one that you absolutely cannot criticize, or else you become counter-revolutionary. And don't even think about going on strike...

Some anarchist branch proposes a style of communism that seems to be less State centered, especially the ones that doesn't object to capitalism (Anarcho-capitalism). Communism ironically calls for the abolition of the State, but, Socialism wants an almighty State first, AND Marxists say you need socialism before communism, and therefore communism never comes, despite branding everything they do as communist (or socialist, depending).

Now i see two key points:

One, people should do things by their own choice, not coerced or forced in anyway. Else human nature kicks in, regardless of oppression or police state.
Two, the less State the better, preferably none. If you are with the type that call this the "real" communism, i tend to be more in favor.

Whatever communism really is (self governed communities? the French commune?) things can become much worse than you think your current situation is, just by making the wrong choice in the name of an ideal that the stubborn reality never makes possible. (Perhaps the ideal was wrong in the first place).
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
I never said China was communist.  They have been delivering food to people under quarantine so I'm not sure where you're getting the starve thing from. 

BTW, quite curious that you aren't complaining about the recent quantitative easing since you are so against money printing. The fed is back at it again and you are silent.   

What the fuck does me complaining about it change? There is literally no way out of this other than total economic collapse at this point. Great whataboutism as usual.


Here are some videos of how wonderfully China is handling this.


"(中文字幕) Leaked Videos From China Reveal What's Really Happening in Hospitals"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcE4JZg2GqM


"Residents Arrested for Bypassing Community Manager to Buy Affordable Vegetables"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q2BtRVwoT0


"Wuhan People Cry For Help | NTDTV"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwoyTjn5n5I


"Coronavirus: China’s Authoritarian Control Gets Worse"

https://www.youtube.com/embed/ArvYq89w-cI


"Chinese Police Weld a Door Shut to Lock Residents Inside During Coronavirus Quarantine"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsoVuKy2_PA
full member
Activity: 952
Merit: 175
@cryptocommies
I never said China was communist.  They have been delivering food to people under quarantine so I'm not sure where you're getting the starve thing from. 

BTW, quite curious that you aren't complaining about the recent quantitative easing since you are so against money printing.   The fed is back at it again and you are silent.   
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
So its clear that capitalism is better for a small minority, the top percentiles of the population. Its also clear that the group expands during times of economic prosperity.

What should be clear is that capitalist systems are ill-prepared for disaster and that socialism thrives at making things good for the people and times that would otherwise be worse off.  Public health is collectivized.  We are all connected.  If one of us gets sick, we all might get sick.  The natural world cannot be changed to fit into this artificial capitalist system.

Vietnam and Cuba are handling this crisis brilliantly while the US absolutely fails to scramble its mangled social systems.  Everyone knows the markets can't fix coronavirus.

China: Hoospitals built in days, hundreds of thousands tested

Vietnam: no deaths, rapid testing, free meal delivery for quarantined

Cuba: Antiviral developed days after first case

US/UK: Rich bolt off to doomsday bunkers

The limitless depths of your ignorance never ceases to amaze and disturb me. Is it clear? Is it? Italy has a mostly publicly funded healthcare system. They are doing great right?

I thought China wasn't Communist, you have said this many times. FYI, those aren't "hoospitals", they are prisons for people to die in quarantine. They are welding people into their apartment blocks leaving them to starve.

You really believe Cuba developed an effective antiviral drug against Covid-19 in days? Do you really even believe any of the diarrhea dribbling out of your mouth or do you think the ends justify the means so it is ok to lie? The fact that you think this is a great opportunity to push your political goals tells me exactly the kind of human detritus you really are.

You are probably one of those people on twitter telling sick people to go to Trump rallies as if those people getting sick won't then in turn infect your friends and family. The good news is you will get your chance to LAARP revolutionary soon. When you are remembering how great you had it when you are struggling to stay alive, remember me Captain Postmodern.

full member
Activity: 952
Merit: 175
@cryptocommies
So its clear that capitalism is better for a small minority, the top percentiles of the population. Its also clear that the group expands during times of economic prosperity.

What should be clear is that capitalist systems are ill-prepared for disaster and that socialism thrives at making things good for the people and times that would otherwise be worse off.  Public health is collectivized.  We are all connected.  If one of us gets sick, we all might get sick.  The natural world cannot be changed to fit into this artificial capitalist system.

Vietnam and Cuba are handling this crisis brilliantly while the US absolutely fails to scramble its mangled social systems.  Everyone knows the markets can't fix coronavirus.

China: Hoospitals built in days, hundreds of thousands tested

Vietnam: no deaths, rapid testing, free meal delivery for quarantined

Cuba: Antiviral developed days after first case

US/UK: Rich bolt off to doomsday bunkers
full member
Activity: 798
Merit: 104
🎄 Allah is The Best Planner 🥀
Capitalism vs. Socialism this is often usually just a quick check out how the upper classes exploit and oppress the underprivileged. during this case, the rich get richer and therefore the poor get poorer. The rich people of society keep them as slaves and deprive them of all aspects. If socialism isn't possible without capitalism, then the capitalists keep society more corrupt.
sr. member
Activity: 791
Merit: 273
This is personal
I don't speak for all communists and there are a bunch of ways to answer that question but personally, I don't believe in seizing assets unless thats how you refer to taxes.  

I simply believe there is enough new wealth being created to make sure it gets distributed fairly amongst workers.   The economy grows each year but most of that growth is enjoyed by the 1% while wages stay stagnant.  If we simply saw that new wealth distributed evenly amongst workers, we wouldn't need to seize anything.  
Combine that with the fact that the US government creates new money all the time and most of that money goes to corporations and finds its way into the pockets of the uber rich.  I'd simply suggest that wealth goes to everyone.  There are a lot of democratic methods for achieving this like Universal basic income, education, healthcare, jobs, or housing.  None of those involve seizing assets from anyone.  
Quote
Evaluating the impact of QE1, which began in 2008, is nearly impossible.  At the time the Fed began rapidly expanding its balance sheet, a number of other events and policy changes were taking place. They included the banking bailout, the auto bailout, advent of zero interest rates, the stimulus package and an accounting change that allowed banks to hold assets on their books to maturity at cost rather than marking them to market. Had all of these taken place in the absence of QE1, how would the economy have performed?  Would it have recovered as it did?  At the time, it was anybody’s guess.
https://www.cmegroup.com/education/featured-reports/did-quantitative-easing-help-spur-growth.html
As you see, we print money to help the "economy" all the time.  I say we start printing money to help everyday people.  


Your graph shows wages rising when profits are falling (1970).
The profits can be reinvested in purchase and expansion of the company which can't show wage increases right away.

Socialists don't understand if workers take profits the company makes, they need to take losses as well.
Imagine working 8 hours a day, 25 days a month and then at the end of the month, you ow someone 2000$.
GG, socialists.
Not all companies make profit, and they never will. It's impossible.
Work exists because not all people are willing to engage in risk, they want to have a secure source of income so they can feed their families.
full member
Activity: 865
Merit: 104
https://paradice.in/?c=bitcointalk
There is no such thing as pure socialism or pure capitalism in today's societies.

Prove me wrong.
full member
Activity: 187
Merit: 102
I have not yet seen a socialist country where the people have freedoms as they do in a capitalist country. I was in Brazil for some years, during the period of the previous government that was socialist, friends of Cuba, Venezuela and so on. What I saw was chaos. Lots of corruption, loss of morality and other absurd things. I also lived in the Amazon, near Venezuela, and I saw women fleeing Venezuela and prostituting themselves to send money to the relatives who stayed there.
The "socialists" of Brazil when they want to go for a walk, go to the United States, France, etc. but I did not see any socialist wanting to go for a walk in Cuba, Venezuela, Angola etc.
So, from what I saw and lived, I still prefer capitalism.
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
Communism is just so diverse I can't possibly define it, and if you try to define it I meant the OTHER type of communism!
full member
Activity: 952
Merit: 175
@cryptocommies
I don't speak for all communists and there are a bunch of ways to answer that question but personally, I don't believe in seizing assets unless thats how you refer to taxes.  

I simply believe there is enough new wealth being created to make sure it gets distributed fairly amongst workers.   The economy grows each year but most of that growth is enjoyed by the 1% while wages stay stagnant.  If we simply saw that new wealth distributed evenly amongst workers, we wouldn't need to seize anything.  

Combine that with the fact that the US government creates new money all the time and most of that money goes to corporations and finds its way into the pockets of the uber rich.  I'd simply suggest that wealth goes to everyone.  There are a lot of democratic methods for achieving this like Universal basic income, education, healthcare, jobs, or housing.  None of those involve seizing assets from anyone.  

Quote
Evaluating the impact of QE1, which began in 2008, is nearly impossible.  At the time the Fed began rapidly expanding its balance sheet, a number of other events and policy changes were taking place. They included the banking bailout, the auto bailout, advent of zero interest rates, the stimulus package and an accounting change that allowed banks to hold assets on their books to maturity at cost rather than marking them to market. Had all of these taken place in the absence of QE1, how would the economy have performed?  Would it have recovered as it did?  At the time, it was anybody’s guess.
https://www.cmegroup.com/education/featured-reports/did-quantitative-easing-help-spur-growth.html
As you see, we print money to help the "economy" all the time.  I say we start printing money to help everyday people.  
sr. member
Activity: 791
Merit: 273
This is personal
Its because strawman is actually the best type of argument to make against communism or socialism.  Capitalists aren't comfortable arguing against the core principals of communism so they have to make up things to pin on it.  This is how smears work.  People put up all sorts of points against the ideology but how often do you see someone actually cite communist or socialist literature, and then make points against it.  Most of the people are arguing against the soviet union which no longer exists.  Thats another form of strawman.  I should call it a deadman. 

If you want to avoid strawmanning all the time, I suggest you go to some party platforms and read them.  I think most people here have "learned" about socialism from capitalists which is the cause for so many strawmen. Go to primary literature. 

Of course its much easier to make an argument against some BS you made up than it is to say "workers don't deserve power"
https://www.cpusa.org/party_info/party-program/
Quote
We see revolution as a profoundly democratic process, one that involves the actions and decisions of the vast majority. We reject all approaches that welcome and seek violent action.
Reading just two sentences from that page already destroys what most people think about communism.

How do you seize and redistribute the assets of people who won't agree to give them over?
full member
Activity: 952
Merit: 175
@cryptocommies
More blanket statements. "communism" is not an organization.  "Communism" is simply a label adopted by or assigned to groups and organizations with diverse sets of core principles.   There are many different types of "communists" but its easy for the lazy mind to put them all in one box instead of reading.  That is why I recommend you going into party websites to see what they are really about.  The soviet union is no longer around. 

That isn't the goal post shifting, thats just diversity amongst communists.  Communists disagree on a lot of things including what is communism and who is a real communist.  You somehow think you easily pin down every communist into one narrow lane but you can't.

Words like "love", "freedom", "democracy", "tyranny", "order" and "fairness" mean different things to different people with different perspectives and interpretations.  Even if your perspective is the "official" correct one, you can't just assume everyone else has that same interpretation.  You need to work on listening to and respecting perspectives that are different from your own.  
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
Its because strawman is actually the best type of argument to make against communism or socialism.  Capitalists aren't comfortable arguing against the core principals of communism so they have to make up things to pin on it.  This is how smears work.  People put up all sorts of points against the ideology but how often do you see someone actually cite communist or socialist literature, and then make points against it.  Most of the people are arguing against the soviet union which no longer exists.  Thats another form of strawman.  I should call it a deadman. 

If you want to avoid strawmanning all the time, I suggest you go to some party platforms and read them.  I think most people here have "learned" about socialism from capitalists which is the cause for so many strawmen. Go to primary literature. 

Of course its much easier to make an argument against some BS you made up than it is to say "workers don't deserve power"
https://www.cpusa.org/party_info/party-program/
Quote
We see revolution as a profoundly democratic process, one that involves the actions and decisions of the vast majority. We reject all approaches that welcome and seek violent action.
Reading just two sentences from that page already destroys what most people think about communism.

Communism has no core principles. Communism is amorphous and changes depending on the argument presented against it, then people like you constantly shifting the goal posts cry "NO that is a straw man, that is not real communism, this is real communism!" You then proceed to rattle off some other equally amorphous ill defined definition, then use the same tactic again once the end of that road is reached. Rinse and repeat. You are addressing nothing even approaching logic. You have sophistry, rhetoric, and pathos.

I also enjoy the part where you accuse me of "strawmanning" as you literally make a statement on by behalf as if I said it and expect me to defend that. Maybe actually learn what the words you use mean, because they don't mean what you think they do. Of course, words are just a means to an end to acheive your goals, not a system of logic right? So let the amorphous goal post shifting begin!
full member
Activity: 952
Merit: 175
@cryptocommies
Its because strawman is actually the best type of argument to make against communism or socialism.  Capitalists aren't comfortable arguing against the core principals of communism so they have to make up things to pin on it.  This is how smears work.  People put up all sorts of points against the ideology but how often do you see someone actually cite communist or socialist literature, and then make points against it.  Most of the people are arguing against the soviet union which no longer exists.  Thats another form of strawman.  I should call it a deadman. 

If you want to avoid strawmanning all the time, I suggest you go to some party platforms and read them.  I think most people here have "learned" about socialism from capitalists which is the cause for so many strawmen. Go to primary literature. 

Of course its much easier to make an argument against some BS you made up than it is to say "workers don't deserve power"
https://www.cpusa.org/party_info/party-program/
Quote
We see revolution as a profoundly democratic process, one that involves the actions and decisions of the vast majority. We reject all approaches that welcome and seek violent action.
Reading just two sentences from that page already destroys what most people think about communism.
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
Who are these people who want equality of outcome?  Not any major socialist or communist party that I can tell you.  Show them to me then.  Give me a link to their platform to prove its not just the same tired strawman.

and lol you think bezos makes amazon prime work. thats cute.

He might as well try to convince a 2 year old Santa Claus doesn't exist. Every criticism you have no argument for is a "strawman", and any time communism was tried was "not real communism".
full member
Activity: 952
Merit: 175
@cryptocommies
No one wants equality of outcome so lose the strawman.  He simply said more equality and meant less inequality.  Its a sliding scale.  No one wants to strive for equality of outcome but that doesn't mean we want a system that accelerates inequality of outcome until a few people own everything.  Those are the two extremes of the spectrum.  Socialism is about installing a floor where everyone has access to basic necessities.  We don't want to put a ceiling on how much anyone can earn. With that said, we do want policies that have a secondary consequence of affecting how fast someone like Bezos accumulates wealth.  Bezos having lets say 20billion instead of 120 billion is far from "equality of outcome"

I'm pretty sure there's a lot of people that want equality of outcome.
Few people can never own everything because they'll always need to trade with other people, they'll need to purchase services and items from others for which they'll have to pay since no one's going to work for free and by exchanging money there's always going to be circulation of currency.

You're missing on how the world works.
If you limit Bezos on 20billion instead of 120billion, maybe he's not going to have Amazon Prime anymore and people won't have a service that delivers items to their door in 2 days. By limiting profit, you limit services, because you're taking away the incentive to make something possible and to make peoples lives easier.

Others aren't capable to do that. Bezos is. That's why he's there and why he's done the things he's done. He deserves to earn those billions since he provided so many services to so many people.
Who are these people who want equality of outcome?  Not any major socialist or communist party that I can tell you.  Show them to me then.  Give me a link to their platform to prove its not just the same tired strawman.

and lol you think bezos makes amazon prime work. thats cute.
sr. member
Activity: 791
Merit: 273
This is personal
A couple of recent threads saw us going off topic and we found ourselves arguing the merits of capitalism vs. pitfalls of socialism.   Grin

Can you guess where I stand on the issue?  If not I'll tell you.  Freedom is not compatible with socialism, and I'm more inclined to remain free and provide for myself than I am to accept handouts and be enslaved.

What about you?

Socialism leads to benefiting the lower class while capitalism brings our more of organization and control. Following either can not benefit all the socities. At,my end , socialism prevails and there is a big gap between top and lower classes of people. Socialism reduces the equality gap , keeps check of law of land and labor and also maintains price fluctuation . Capitalism works well in socities where the authorities are disorganized and dont work well.

How did socialism help the working class in Ukraine, Cambodia, China, North Korea and Venezuela?
sr. member
Activity: 744
Merit: 266
A couple of recent threads saw us going off topic and we found ourselves arguing the merits of capitalism vs. pitfalls of socialism.   Grin

Can you guess where I stand on the issue?  If not I'll tell you.  Freedom is not compatible with socialism, and I'm more inclined to remain free and provide for myself than I am to accept handouts and be enslaved.

What about you?

Socialism leads to benefiting the lower class while capitalism brings our more of organization and control. Following either can not benefit all the socities. At,my end , socialism prevails and there is a big gap between top and lower classes of people. Socialism reduces the equality gap , keeps check of law of land and labor and also maintains price fluctuation . Capitalism works well in socities where the authorities are disorganized and dont work well.
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