Casinos can use AI to get additional edge? - page 2.

michellee

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Quote from: klaaas on July 05, 2019, 06:25:31 PM

Quote from: adzino on July 05, 2019, 05:36:26 PM

No, I don't think any casino would or could do that. Not even sure how would that even work. Even if it worked, people will eventually realize this since they will notice that every large bet they place is a bet they lose.

Indeed it would be complicated. There are much easier ways to tamper on the backend if a casino want to use rogue tactics on there players.

No, I don't think so because if they can have a good team to manage the website and they have the skill to integrate their system with the AI, I think that will not impossible. That will help them to set everything to run by itself and they only need to monitor the system and if something wrong is happening, the AI will tell them so they can immediately fix that.

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Quote from: klaaas on July 05, 2019, 06:25:31 PM

Quote from: adzino on July 05, 2019, 05:36:26 PM

No, I don't think any casino would or could do that. Not even sure how would that even work. Even if it worked, people will eventually realize this since they will notice that every large bet they place is a bet they lose.

Indeed it would be complicated. There are much easier ways to tamper on the backend if a casino want to use rogue tactics on there players.

No its not complicated and its not also impossible for a casino site to use a.i and other systems just to make more money out of thier costumers . will not notice it especially if we are not techy enough because the site is composes by codes and other deep techy stuffs but i think honest casinos wont really use those things because they only want to be fair . they knew that thier costumers will comeback if the costumers are happy and satisfied from their experience .

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Quote from: Zicadis on June 27, 2019, 07:46:35 AM

Quote from: Betwrong on June 27, 2019, 07:35:23 AM

~They say AI can beat any player in poker, but I personally doubt it, and it would be very interesting to try to play poker with such a bot.

If the AI can destroy players at a game like Dota, why wouldn't it completely annihilate humans at a much simpler game, like Poker?
~

Maybe because poker is not a simpler game, or, I'd rather say, it's not a simpler game for computer. Bluffing may seem irrational from a computer's point of view, and the machine will perform it only if programmed to do so. But what a self-learning bot will be doing after several terrible outcomes of bluffing? Right, it will stop bluffing. But every good poker player knows that you can't win without bluffing in the long run.

OpenAI's Dota 2 bot defeated over 99% of all challengers, and they where one of the best pro players around. There are no doubts that AI can beat anyone in Dota in the end.

In January 2017 an AI called LIBRATUS beat 4 pro poker players after playing 120k games, and then later another AI, DEEPSTACK, beat 10 out of 11 expert human players after playing 45k games. And yet I think it is much less certain that an AI can beat a good poker player than that of Dota. There are more unique situations in a game of Texas No-Limit Hold'em than there are atoms in the Universe. There are 10 to the power of 160 outcomes for each game. There is no way even the most powerful computers could actually consider all of those possibilities, but even if they could, they would never know for certain whether an opponent is bluffing or not.

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Quote from: adzino on July 05, 2019, 05:36:26 PM

No, I don't think any casino would or could do that. Not even sure how would that even work. Even if it worked, people will eventually realize this since they will notice that every large bet they place is a bet they lose.

Indeed it would be complicated. There are much easier ways to tamper on the backend if a casino want to use rogue tactics on there players.

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No, I don't think any casino would or could do that. Not even sure how would that would work. Even if it worked, people will eventually realize this since they will notice that every large bet they place is a bet they lose. It takes just few seconds for a serious gambler to know if a casino is rigged or not. And yeah, people can easily abuse this system once they get to know how the system works.

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Quote from: Nalbo on July 03, 2019, 07:30:49 AM

I believe most of the Casinos do have a player on the board. Be it an AI or a real person from the casino. As we don't know the identity of the person with the username, it could be anything. Casinos would have an unfair advantage if they place their person to play with their money as they can have stack of any money.

yes, I also assume that most casinos will definitely place their players to play, so that profits do not fully fall on gamblers but can return to site owners so they don't easily lose the capital they have spent and this method is so effective that casino sites can survive long

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Quote from: TheCoinGrabber on July 04, 2019, 02:15:08 PM

Quote from: yvesp110 on July 03, 2019, 07:00:11 AM

Quote from: TheCoinGrabber on July 02, 2019, 11:13:10 AM

Exactly. I don't know much about probability but it is said that the slots in physical casinos have their chances set so that every now and then one would give a payout, to encourage those in other slots to continue. Of course it's different with card games but if they want it to be realistic, they'd have to throw in a few "errors" in to make the AI realistic.

If people feel they don't have the slightest chance of winning (though to be fair they really don't have much to begin with), they won't play.

AI can enable companies and enterprises around the world to cut down costs and maximize profits. There have been so many applications and software that help in the business activities and companies like Microsoft, Facebook and the leading firms in the financial sector have been making their millions this way. So it is not possible to make superprofits in the current era without making use of AI.

You have a point. The thing is, with gamblers they prefer to have another person playing in the same table. If the casino put an AI in there instead, it'll be like a noob playing chess on max difficulty - you'd feel very frustrated.

If it is known that an online casino used an AI, that could destroy the players' trust. How sure would they that not all "players" are AI and these are putting an act? After all, it's all virtual, you can't confirm who those are. It'll be like the Truman Show except with AIs.

I understand your point here. But it is never going to happen because this will cost a casino all its users. You just cannot win from AI if it’s on the other end of the table. Better go through the story of world champion Lee Sedol and vs. the AI robots AlphaGo and you will be surprised to know that the world champion could not win from the AL robot. So the casinos will not do that but can make use of AI in other different activities.

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Rather than integrating Artificial Intelligence it is good to rewrite the script in such a way to get additional edge when there is continuous winning streak with the user. The same is being done through the integration of artificial intelligence where the game will be observed and based on the winning it gets back an added house edge and will be fair.

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Quote from: TheCoinGrabber on July 04, 2019, 02:15:08 PM

Quote from: yvesp110 on July 03, 2019, 07:00:11 AM

Quote from: TheCoinGrabber on July 02, 2019, 11:13:10 AM

Exactly. I don't know much about probability but it is said that the slots in physical casinos have their chances set so that every now and then one would give a payout, to encourage those in other slots to continue. Of course it's different with card games but if they want it to be realistic, they'd have to throw in a few "errors" in to make the AI realistic.

If people feel they don't have the slightest chance of winning (though to be fair they really don't have much to begin with), they won't play.

AI can enable companies and enterprises around the world to cut down costs and maximize profits. There have been so many applications and software that help in the business activities and companies like Microsoft, Facebook and the leading firms in the financial sector have been making their millions this way. So it is not possible to make superprofits in the current era without making use of AI.

You have a point. The thing is, with gamblers they prefer to have another person playing in the same table. If the casino put an AI in there instead, it'll be like a noob playing chess on max difficulty - you'd feel very frustrated.

If it is known that an online casino used an AI, that could destroy the players' trust. How sure would they that not all "players" are AI and these are putting an act? After all, it's all virtual, you can't confirm who those are. It'll be like the Truman Show except with AIs.

Even there was a sign of AI on Truman Show and experienced gamblers can get the point if such case ever happens in any site. Virtual places can be manipulated easily with the help of various scripts, so there is no 100% trust. Audits even can be subject to the corruption and bribery facts are hidden. Only big ones are leaked to the media IMO.

TheCoinGrabber

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Quote from: yvesp110 on July 03, 2019, 07:00:11 AM

Quote from: TheCoinGrabber on July 02, 2019, 11:13:10 AM

Exactly. I don't know much about probability but it is said that the slots in physical casinos have their chances set so that every now and then one would give a payout, to encourage those in other slots to continue. Of course it's different with card games but if they want it to be realistic, they'd have to throw in a few "errors" in to make the AI realistic.

If people feel they don't have the slightest chance of winning (though to be fair they really don't have much to begin with), they won't play.

AI can enable companies and enterprises around the world to cut down costs and maximize profits. There have been so many applications and software that help in the business activities and companies like Microsoft, Facebook and the leading firms in the financial sector have been making their millions this way. So it is not possible to make superprofits in the current era without making use of AI.

You have a point. The thing is, with gamblers they prefer to have another person playing in the same table. If the casino put an AI in there instead, it'll be like a noob playing chess on max difficulty - you'd feel very frustrated.

If it is known that an online casino used an AI, that could destroy the players' trust. How sure would they that not all "players" are AI and these are putting an act? After all, it's all virtual, you can't confirm who those are. It'll be like the Truman Show except with AIs.

Nalbo

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I believe most of the Casinos do have a player on the board. Be it an AI or a real person from the casino. As we don't know the identity of the person with the username, it could be anything. Casinos would have an unfair advantage if they place their person to play with their money as they can have stack of any money.

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Quote from: TheCoinGrabber on July 02, 2019, 11:13:10 AM

Quote from: AmoreJaz on July 01, 2019, 06:38:20 PM

Quote from: TheCoinGrabber on July 01, 2019, 01:14:13 PM

Not only is the AI going to attempt to guess your moves, it's also way better at calculating the odds than you so yes, it'll definitely put the human player at a disadvantage. Seems like an overkill but I can see them attempting to use this in such a way that it wouldn't be obvious.

thats totally overkill! ripping the money of the gamblers at its best!
should be discreet otherwise, their area will be like a hunted one!

Exactly. I don't know much about probability but it is said that the slots in physical casinos have their chances set so that every now and then one would give a payout, to encourage those in other slots to continue. Of course it's different with card games but if they want it to be realistic, they'd have to throw in a few "errors" in to make the AI realistic.

If people feel they don't have the slightest chance of winning (though to be fair they really don't have much to begin with), they won't play.

AI can enable companies and enterprises around the world to cut down costs and maximize profits. There have been so many applications and software that help in the business activities and companies like Microsoft, Facebook and the leading firms in the financial sector have been making their millions this way. So it is not possible to make superprofits in the current era without making use of AI.

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Quote from: AmoreJaz on July 01, 2019, 06:38:20 PM

Quote from: TheCoinGrabber on July 01, 2019, 01:14:13 PM

Not only is the AI going to attempt to guess your moves, it's also way better at calculating the odds than you so yes, it'll definitely put the human player at a disadvantage. Seems like an overkill but I can see them attempting to use this in such a way that it wouldn't be obvious.

thats totally overkill! ripping the money of the gamblers at its best!
should be discreet otherwise, their area will be like a hunted one!

Exactly. I don't know much about probability but it is said that the slots in physical casinos have their chances set so that every now and then one would give a payout, to encourage those in other slots to continue. Of course it's different with card games but if they want it to be realistic, they'd have to throw in a few "errors" in to make the AI realistic.

If people feel they don't have the slightest chance of winning (though to be fair they really don't have much to begin with), they won't play.

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Quote from: goaldigger on June 28, 2019, 04:56:45 AM

Quote from: hatshepsut93 on June 23, 2019, 04:14:09 PM

Gambling is all about random number generation, and provably fair scheme provides guarantees that casino doesn't cheat, but we also know that humans are horrible random number generators - we are very easily predictable.

There are many online demonstrations available, I'll just drop one here: http://www.cs.stir.ac.uk/~kms/schools/rps/index.php
After a small number of games, computer becomes quite good at consistently beating you at the game.

So, theoretically a casino can observe how you place your bets, then predict your next bets and make their own bets (they always go first) accordingly. The flaw here is if this algorithm is implemented too naively, it can be abused by players by making big amounts of predictable low-value bets, and then making a big opposite bet.

This explains why there are a phenomena called beginners luck which i suppose that AI makes to make the player hooked and play in a long time. This actually some codes or systems embeded into game particularly to control the ins and outs of the gambling slots. The AI decides the winning combination depending on the money you put or some reasons.

Well, casinos do have codes or programs set up when a gambler plays but I don't think adding an AI would be necessary since with the present codes they have, the longer the gambler plays the closer it is to their house edge meaning a chance that the gambler will lose. I don't know if you have noticed that most of the time a new gambler plays, normally wins in the first few games but once he is hooked up and try to play longer they lose so that is why I think casinos will no longer go that extra mile just to rip people off.

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Quote from: Woodie on June 23, 2019, 04:19:12 PM

The gambler always knows that there game is being read by someone else besides them and there is no way of proving this with their famous line of defence "they can't manipulate games" but we know the truth and AI is certainly at play! I have had this experience with blackjack, dice and many other games....the losing streak is my evidence Tongue

I remember the funniest line in my country when they lose.
"If they lose, the game is cheater. If they win, the game is so amazing!"

Doubting is good because it is just proving that we are an observer. But always doubting and blaming others to your loss is not anymore good. If you always blame the AI or gambling site itself, then quit gambling. Instead, pay attention to the one that you don't know a cheater.

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Quote from: TheCoinGrabber on July 01, 2019, 01:14:13 PM

Not only is the AI going to attempt to guess your moves, it's also way better at calculating the odds than you so yes, it'll definitely put the human player at a disadvantage. Seems like an overkill but I can see them attempting to use this in such a way that it wouldn't be obvious.

thats totally overkill! ripping the money of the gamblers at its best!
should be discreet otherwise, their area will be like a hunted one!

Quote from: Zicadis on July 01, 2019, 04:38:38 PM

Quote from: hatshepsut93 on June 23, 2019, 04:14:09 PM

Gambling is all about random number generation, and provably fair scheme provides guarantees that casino doesn't cheat, but we also know that humans are horrible random number generators - we are very easily predictable.

There are many online demonstrations available, I'll just drop one here: http://www.cs.stir.ac.uk/~kms/schools/rps/index.php
After a small number of games, computer becomes quite good at consistently beating you at the game.

So, theoretically a casino can observe how you place your bets, then predict your next bets and make their own bets (they always go first) accordingly. The flaw here is if this algorithm is implemented too naively, it can be abused by players by making big amounts of predictable low-value bets, and then making a big opposite bet.

DataRobot, Optimove , IKASI are just some of the names that are already using AI to get an edge over their competetion. Read this article here that explains more about what's happening in this space: https://www.axios.com/casinos-gambling-ai-marketing-addiction-0f01b612-7384-4875-a61e-f35684804239.html

for casinos who are already utilising AI, i guess they will not disclose it to their players. because this will prompt the gamblers not to play with them anymore.
at least give them the chance to win. dont be greedy!

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Quote from: davis196 on July 01, 2019, 02:20:33 AM

You know the saying "The casino always wins."With or without AI and random number generation algorithms,the casinos will win 99,99% of the time.

Casinos where no one will win are not the ones you want to play. The gains for the house [besides the bet sizes] are the amount of losing bets thus the amount of users playing.

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Dump it!!!

Quote from: hatshepsut93 on June 23, 2019, 04:14:09 PM

Gambling is all about random number generation, and provably fair scheme provides guarantees that casino doesn't cheat, but we also know that humans are horrible random number generators - we are very easily predictable.

There are many online demonstrations available, I'll just drop one here: http://www.cs.stir.ac.uk/~kms/schools/rps/index.php
After a small number of games, computer becomes quite good at consistently beating you at the game.

So, theoretically a casino can observe how you place your bets, then predict your next bets and make their own bets (they always go first) accordingly. The flaw here is if this algorithm is implemented too naively, it can be abused by players by making big amounts of predictable low-value bets, and then making a big opposite bet.

DataRobot, Optimove , IKASI are just some of the names that are already using AI to get an edge over their competetion. Read this article here that explains more about what's happening in this space: https://www.axios.com/casinos-gambling-ai-marketing-addiction-0f01b612-7384-4875-a61e-f35684804239.html

TheCoinGrabber

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Not only is the AI going to attempt to guess your moves, it's also way better at calculating the odds than you so yes, it'll definitely put the human player at a disadvantage. Seems like an overkill but I can see them attempting to use this in such a way that it wouldn't be obvious.

michellee

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Quote from: davis196 on July 01, 2019, 02:20:33 AM

Quote from: hatshepsut93 on June 23, 2019, 04:14:09 PM

Gambling is all about random number generation, and provably fair scheme provides guarantees that casino doesn't cheat, but we also know that humans are horrible random number generators - we are very easily predictable.

There are many online demonstrations available, I'll just drop one here: http://www.cs.stir.ac.uk/~kms/schools/rps/index.php
After a small number of games, computer becomes quite good at consistently beating you at the game.

So, theoretically a casino can observe how you place your bets, then predict your next bets and make their own bets (they always go first) accordingly. The flaw here is if this algorithm is implemented too naively, it can be abused by players by making big amounts of predictable low-value bets, and then making a big opposite bet.

You know the saying "The casino always wins."With or without AI and random number generation algorithms,the casinos will win 99,99% of the time.The important question here is,can a gambler develop an AI or algorithm that can predict random numbers and beat the casino.

Exactly, they don't have to watch the players play the game, and in the end, the casino will get all of the money. That will help them to reduce their work in the casino, and they can do another thing to promote and attract more players. Maybe the gamblers will develop the AI or algorithm that will help them to beat the house, but the casino will prevent that thing so the casino will still take the money.

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