Casinos can use AI to get additional edge? - page 4.

mu_enrico

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Quote from: imstillthebest on June 27, 2019, 02:06:11 AM

you mean the ai enemies on dota ? lol you gotta be kidding me , you must be a kid because you can be easily beaten by an a.i , we humans have real brains and we are smarter than them . the same thing can be applied on gambling based a.i's or on any other a.i's out there .

With that kind of attitude, you will never grow up boi. Do some research first, please. If OpenAI can beat Dendi, pretty sure it can eliminate 99% of human out there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7U4-wvhgx0w
Don't be so salty out there boi.

Quote from: imstillthebest on June 27, 2019, 02:06:11 AM

you quit stock trading for that reason but you join crypto trading and you are not aware that there are also a.i and bots that manipulate the crypto market .

Who said I'm a crypto trader boi? Who said I'm not aware of that?
AFAIK a trader is not a person who occasionally convert random tokens from a signature campaign into Bitcoin.

Be more constructive or simply don't post boi.

imstillthebest

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Quote from: mu_enrico on June 27, 2019, 12:44:23 AM

I'm not a fan of AI for gambling (as a player). Seriously, if AI can be as good as OpenAI (DOTA 2), then it will only scare gamblers away. I would rather bet against random luck than strong AI.

you mean the ai enemies on dota ? lol you gotta be kidding me , you must be a kid because you can be easily beaten by an a.i , we humans have real brains and we are smarter than them . the same thing can be applied on gambling based a.i's or on any other a.i's out there .

Quote

I used to be a stock trader, but I quit once I saw how big players use supercomputers + AI to trade.

you quit stock trading for that reason but you join crypto trading and you are not aware that there are also a.i and bots that manipulate the crypto market .

FanEagle

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Quote from: electronicash on June 25, 2019, 10:37:06 PM

the house always win, it has to be that way or we don't have a platform to gamble. sonit best to side with them when they offer something like revenue sharing than rely on winning bets. this is the reason i only bet on sports since they can't manipulate results to it. dice and roullets is just not the type of game you can consider fair even when the codes are shared.

I don’t believe there’s any site that cannot be manipulated, sport bet is no exemption but they have tried to make theirs really transparent which is very good. I have come to the acceptance that casinos are designed to always be in their favor and there’s nothing we can do about this. It’s just so bad that dice are roulette are the leaders in this pattern of manipulation

Let’s just be hopeful that things would change with time and casino edge can now be 50/50 but for now, we do all we can to secure our little win and having fun with the games. Even the AI are not working properly as we want it to be, I believe it need to be upgraded and in years to come better than it is at the moment.

mu_enrico

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I'm not a fan of AI for gambling (as a player). Seriously, if AI can be as good as OpenAI (DOTA 2), then it will only scare gamblers away. I would rather bet against random luck than strong AI.

I used to be a stock trader, but I quit once I saw how big players use supercomputers + AI to trade.

DarkDays

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Nobody would use a casino that is using an artificial intelligence to cheat them out of their money.

If it's a game of skill, then nobody would be stupid enough to go up against an A.I. They've been shown to beat humans at even complex games like DOTA 2 and Go, so why would we be able to win on simple games usually available at casinos?

That being said, I wouldn't want seeing something like this for sports betting, e.g. wagering who will win, and A.I. vs a pro sports team in a competitive game. However, unless it's a shooter, we don't really have much of a chance.

Betwrong

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Quote from: Vaculin on June 25, 2019, 10:44:51 PM

Quote from: electronicash on June 25, 2019, 10:37:06 PM

the house always win, it has to be that way or we don't have a platform to gamble. sonit best to side with them when they offer something like revenue sharing than rely on winning bets. this is the reason i only bet on sports since they can't manipulate results to it. dice and roullets is just not the type of game you can consider fair even when the codes are shared.

I don't think they'll manipulate the result, they already have that house edge so they'll eventually win.
Manipulating results will make their site bad and I guess the reason why more people are still gambling in games where there's a house edge like dice is because they believe they are provably fair.
~

Not only they believe it, but they can check it via a third-party site, or even check that themselves on an offline computer if they are too paranoid

. I have long not been surprised by the fact that most ordinary people don't understand how provably fair works, and thus they think that gambling sites manipulate the outcomes. But I never cease to be surprised by such posts here. Google "how provably fair works" and choose the explanation that suits you in order to not act like flat-earthers anymore.

Vaculin

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Quote from: electronicash on June 25, 2019, 10:37:06 PM

the house always win, it has to be that way or we don't have a platform to gamble. sonit best to side with them when they offer something like revenue sharing than rely on winning bets. this is the reason i only bet on sports since they can't manipulate results to it. dice and roullets is just not the type of game you can consider fair even when the codes are shared.

I don't think they'll manipulate the result, they already have that house edge so they'll eventually win.
Manipulating results will make their site bad and I guess the reason why more people are still gambling in games where there's a house edge like dice is because they believe they are provably fair.

Well, sports is no doubt a good kind of gambling game, I am also seeing a dice sites now that are integrating sports in their service, they see the demand so they are doing it.

electronicash

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the house always win, it has to be that way or we don't have a platform to gamble. sonit best to side with them when they offer something like revenue sharing than rely on winning bets. this is the reason i only bet on sports since they can't manipulate results to it. dice and roullets is just not the type of game you can consider fair even when the codes are shared.

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Quote from: shoreno on June 25, 2019, 08:26:22 PM

Quote from: hatshepsut93 on June 23, 2019, 03:14:09 PM

Gambling is all about random number generation, and provably fair scheme provides guarantees that casino doesn't cheat, but we also know that humans are horrible random number generators - we are very easily predictable.

not all gambling are based on generating random numbers . what card games like poker ? that is an example of skill based and you are using a card not numbers . there is not right or wrong in generating a number because that is random but i think we it comes to solving something , ai or bots can work well versus humans .

When you play online poker, I think the calculations are using computation from the script, and if AI has replaced the computation system, I think they could use AI for the calculations. The player still using their skills to play poker but the opponent, which is the house, they could use AI to play for them.

Quote from: shoreno on June 25, 2019, 08:26:22 PM

Quote from: hatshepsut93 on June 23, 2019, 03:14:09 PM

So, theoretically a casino can observe how you place your bets, then predict your next bets and make their own bets (they always go first) accordingly.

they can observe your bets but they cant predict your next bets not unless if they are not fair . also not all gambling game is in versus mode ( dice game for example ) i think this games are more safe .

Predicting what the next bets from us still difficult to them because of we bets base from the situations in the poker table and I think the AI now are not in that phase and maybe it will need to develop more so AI can work as we want.

But I am sure that in the future when the AI is grown more than now, it can help not just the casino but in the other field. We will see something new in our future and who knows what we saw in the movie will happen to our real life.

darklus123

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Machine Learning is really usable in casino slot games. You are right that a certain AI will be able to get your play style pattern and used it to casino's advantage but the good thing about it is that you as the gamer can also manipulate AI's work as you can put AI's situation where you wanted to be.

That is the bad thing about Machine Learning because the person who's been feeding the information which is the gambler can control the certain information that he would want the AI to learn and then use it to gamblers advantage.

shoreno

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on June 23, 2019, 03:14:09 PM

Gambling is all about random number generation, and provably fair scheme provides guarantees that casino doesn't cheat, but we also know that humans are horrible random number generators - we are very easily predictable.

not all gambling are based on generating random numbers . what card games like poker ? that is an example of skill based and you are using a card not numbers . there is not right or wrong in generating a number because that is random but i think we it comes to solving something , ai or bots can work well versus humans .

Quote from: hatshepsut93 on June 23, 2019, 03:14:09 PM

So, theoretically a casino can observe how you place your bets, then predict your next bets and make their own bets (they always go first) accordingly.

they can observe your bets but they cant predict your next bets not unless if they are not fair . also not all gambling game is in versus mode ( dice game for example ) i think this games are more safe .

crwth

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I know that there are different types of AI. Based on my research, there are two types of it with many sub-branches after it. Type 1 and Type 2 AI (based on this reference)

For Type 1 it can be classified into two

Weak AI / Narrow AI - which is focused only on one task and that's it
Strong AI - it can perform tasks like a human being (scary it seems lol]

For Type 2 it can be classified into four and it is based on functionalities.

Reactive Machines - it's a basic form of AI and it's thinking on the present without using data or information from the past
Limited Memory - it bases it's actions with past data. The past information affects the future decisions (good for gambling maybe?)
Theory of Mind - an AI with feelings? They are able to understand peoples emotions
Self-awareness - like a human (we're not there yet)

For the usage of AI, I think the Machine Learning process on Type 2 limited memory machines would give a lot of chances to win because the more it takes on the information it could be learned on what it's doing and think of the best possible way to achieve the target. There is so much more application to AI that you can ever imagine, not just in casinos.

Links
Artificial Intelligence: Definition, Types, Examples, Technologies
How Artificial Intelligence Is Shaping Online Gambling
AI is better at bluffing than professional gamblers

Dreamchaser21

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It can help casinos on many ways but it must be set accordingly because not all gamblers in casinos are using technology some are still want to be more on traditional system. I think AI is already working in some casinos but its not that active since they still hire people to go work full time. The future of technology is good, everyone will adopt.

stomachgrowls

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Quote from: Joel_Jantsen on June 25, 2019, 05:26:26 PM

Quote from: hatshepsut93 on June 23, 2019, 03:14:09 PM

So, theoretically a casino can observe how you place your bets, then predict your next bets and make their own bets (they always go first) accordingly. The flaw here is if this algorithm is implemented too naively, it can be abused by players by making big amounts of predictable low-value bets, and then making a big opposite bet.

They can predict how I bet but can they predict what's the next winning number is going to be? I think not. If any gambling site manages to do that, people would stop playing there.

On point and a pretty basic thing where if they do manage such to know results then that would already be a big issue.
They can know patterns but due to random betting it would be hard or manage to know on what will be the next thing comes into your mind. Grin

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on June 23, 2019, 03:14:09 PM

Gambling is all about random number generation, and provably fair scheme provides guarantees that casino doesn't cheat, but we also know that humans are horrible random number generators - we are very easily predictable.

Not really. The gambling websites don't use the traditional random number generators. Even computers or programming languages fail at that.

Quote from: hatshepsut93 on June 23, 2019, 03:14:09 PM

So, theoretically a casino can observe how you place your bets, then predict your next bets and make their own bets (they always go first) accordingly. The flaw here is if this algorithm is implemented too naively, it can be abused by players by making big amounts of predictable low-value bets, and then making a big opposite bet.

They can predict how I bet but can they predict what's the next winning number is going to be? I think not. If any gambling site manages to do that, people would stop playing there.

TimeTeller

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Quote from: Rufsilf on June 24, 2019, 01:56:06 AM

I don't think they need any more AI to get money from gamblers or for them to get additional edge because as we all know casinos will really get profits in the long run depending on the number of times the gambler play. The longer a gambler play the higher chance that gambler will lose, imagine how many gambler's play everyday, with casinos house edges they don't need to cheat or do anything because in the long run they will win.

Yes, they have house edge already so if they will integrate AI, they will rip more money from the gamblers. Tongue

If that would be the case, it might be very hard for the player to win now in casinos.
I don't think that's a good idea if you are a gambler and not the business owner.

Betwrong

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on June 23, 2019, 03:14:09 PM

Gambling is all about random number generation, and provably fair scheme provides guarantees that casino doesn't cheat, but we also know that humans are horrible random number generators - we are very easily predictable.

There are many online demonstrations available, I'll just drop one here: http://www.cs.stir.ac.uk/~kms/schools/rps/index.php
After a small number of games, computer becomes quite good at consistently beating you at the game.

So, theoretically a casino can observe how you place your bets, then predict your next bets and make their own bets (they always go first) accordingly. The flaw here is if this algorithm is implemented too naively, it can be abused by players by making big amounts of predictable low-value bets, and then making a big opposite bet.

Exactly! And that's only a single example out of many ways of overplaying robots. I used to play with bots on newly appeared poker sites, and won over 0.1 BTC that way(unfortunately, it looks like there are no such sites around anymore). It takes several hours(with small bets) to understand their algorithm, and then you can make larger bets and win most of the time. And even in the Rock, Paper, Scissors game, as you said, the algorithm can be abused.

Regarding dice, you can play with the same server seed as many times as you want, so I don't see how AI can provide a provably fair dice site with an additional edge.

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Now that we are on a whole new level of technology, there is no question about ai being used by most gambling sites(if not all) to have an edge over their clients. But considering this fact, gamblers still do the betting not because of the house edge but because they enjoy doing so.

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The casinos always win in the long time as they have the house edge which is set in their slot machines,blackjack and roulette games.I talk about electronic games and not the real blackjack and roulette.

If they add AI it can cause a lot of damage to the gamblers as AI can read patterns and make the appropriate adjustment to the variance of the gameplay if the gsmbler is winning.

Rufsilf

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I don't think they need any more AI to get money from gamblers or for them to get additional edge because as we all know casinos will really get profits in the long run depending on the number of times the gambler play. The longer a gambler play the higher chance that gambler will lose, imagine how many gambler's play everyday, with casinos house edges they don't need to cheat or do anything because in the long run they will win.

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