Topic: Class action Litigation vs. Bitcoinica Consultancy LTD & Intersango LTD - page 6. (Read 26991 times)

Zhou Tong, can you check your github private repo if it was indeed genjix who cloned it on May 31, or there isn't a log that you can get that info from?
I'm assuming there is an access log because it's a private repo, but I may be wrong, ofcourse.

Where the fuck is genjix now? I hope he isn't dead.

From what I read on this forum, genjix was already paying back the funds. He did pause this process because of the recent theft. As Patrick is now apparently gone, genjix should be able to pay back even faster. I think you guys starting to sue him will actually prevent this. Now we all will have to wait longer, if we ever receive anything. So suing now was most probably not the smartest move.

Jeff, there are two separate issues. Bitcoinica can, and should, still refund outstanding depositors proportionally to their "unstolen" money. But they are not doing that either! There is at this moment, no known acting representative or Bitcoinica doing anything to refund anybody. They need to be forced to get their shit together.

Only lawyers will win. Everyone simply lose.

Make sure all relevant law enforcement authorities, in all jurisdictions, have all available evidence required to chase the thieves responsible.  This includes Bitcoinica involved parties, assisting with all their available data, one hopes.

Jeff, I disagree completely. There have been plenty of cases in the past where bitcoins were stolen or deposits unrefunded, yet I am unaware of a single attempt to fix this. How can an attempt to resolve this issue discourage people from using Bitcoin?

Bitcoinica still has some funds, yet at the moment noone appears to be trying to refund the depositors. This makes it more likely that an attempt to enforce refunds will succeed than if this was only a theft where the perpetrator is unknown.

I think there's plenty of intrigue left to be revealed before the final chapter is written on this saga.  Maybe a trilogy is in order.

After all of this it would be amazing a movie portrayal of Bitcoinica rise and fall  

As it sounds like there are going to be cross-suits - users suing Bitcoinica Consultancy and Tihan's fund also suing the Consultancy - it's not clear that representative action would bring the desired result. 

Users do need to accept that the majority of small businesses fail, and Bitcoin offers no magical protection against that.  Bitcoin businesses also need to accept that they have legally enforceable responsibilities to their customers and Bitcoin offers no magical protection against that.

While I agree that lawsuits may deter some people from starting Bitcoin ventures, that may actually be desirable given the "wing and a prayer" approach which past failed ventures have taken.  While users need to fully acknowledge the inherent risk when dealing with Bitcoin businesses, users also shouldn't be expected to go on just swallowing repeated losses while those responsible for those losses remain unaccountable.  That lack of accountability will also have a chilling effect on bringing new people into the community.

I only have $100 in bitcoinica so its pointless for me to be involved in suing.
It would be good to get lawyers who are already into bitcoin to take this on imo so any precedent set is for the good of bitcoin overall, having some lawyers who are not versed with the bigger bitcoin picture could end up being detrimental overall even if this case is won, to the point of having pollies etc. rallying to have it banned in various jurisdictions, so tread lightly and carry a big stick kind of thing.
Another thing to consider is that if the complaint is lost then there could be damages awarded to the bitcoinica side.
To may people have lost to much for this to be swept under the carpet again and already to much time has gone by in this overall debacle, whatever happened by who and how it still stinks of so much shit behind the scene, the very least there has been negligence involved on the management and control of customer assets.

At this early stage, lawsuits will have a chilling effect on trying to bring new people into the community, especially new businesses.

It seems unlikely that lawsuits will recover funds or successfully locate the thieves.

Thanks.  That is the exchange I was referring to.  I knew that Amir knew little of the details, but I previously missed the part where he mentioned the email exchanges between Tihan and Donald.  It sounds like Amir - and maybe even Patrick - may have just gone along with whatever Tihan and Donald decided both prior to and after the hack.

I still really, really want to know who Wendon is and at what point Tihan became involved with Bitcoinica (we know it was before March - some of Zhou's posts suggest that it may have been January).  Obviously it's a trivial matter for Tihan to prove that he injected funds into Bitcoinica after the Linode and Rackspace hacks, as Zhou has stated in the past.

I think this is the post you are referring to:


The email address I have for Tihan mentions splashlab.com - so this could possibly be related to the fund (I am merely speculating here)

Also Bitcoinica Consultancy suggested that there are more than one Limited Partners. Stating Tihan's fund as the 'Majority Limited Partner'. See: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.902253

alpaca socks would be nice, although dollars would be preferred.

Exactly!


And the next scammers/hackers know it! And the ones that follow them. And then the ones that follow them. Ad infinitum.


The above being true, makes the below that much more not worth it.


Thus, once again, only the lawyers will prevail, whether they're paid in dollars, euros, bitcoins or alpaca socks.

~Bruno~

The lawyer I contacted works for an internationally established company with offices all around the world and experience with dealing with financial / banking lawsuits.

That's all fine. Those people can still use other ways of attempting to enforce their claims if they believe it is worth it. But eventually there will be a sufficient demand for more "official" enforcement methods.

Also reduces the odds anyone will ever make a competitor to Mt.Gox if there is a history of them being sued into destitution.

This is a great post.

Right now I'm sitting on the sidelines - I have nothing at stake in Bitcoinica, but do use Intersango on a regular basis. Right now, what Bitcoin needs to grow and succeed is a) people willing to put effort and wisdom into making Bitcoin usable and trusted, and b) people willing to take that trust and build on it. Yes, there's "real money" at stake, but at the same time that "real money" is based on a platform of openness and accountability.

IMHO, underscoring Bitcoin with lawsuits *will* increase accountability (why wasn't Bitcoinica open sourced? why is info on most sites' security practices and legal statuses still so hard to find?), but it's going to require some *very* dedicated and passionate people to step up to that. The question is where are they going to come from?

My own opinion is that 'shit happens'. I wish BC hadn't bothered taking on such a risk (as, I guess, do they), but that's the shit Bitcoin is in.

What does it mean for the future of Bitcoin? I have no idea - but I'm certainly more wary about telling other people how great it is. Relying on  a small number of decent services is a dangerous position to be in.

It's actually not clear that $500,000 investment in CoinLab by Draper Associates and others intersects with Bitcoinica in any way.  In fact, there's a post somewhere (I'll try to find it) which says that Bitcoinica approached CoinLab for help after the Linode hack and they were unable to assist, which suggests that the investment group which is the limited partner in Bitcoinica is another group for which Tihan finds investments (this isn't at all uncommon in the world of VC).

While in the US you can "sue anyone for anything", that's not universally true elsewhere.  It's absolutely vital that if people want to litigate this they consult experienced litigation lawyers in the appropriate jurisdictions.  It's not simply a matter of "pick a defendant, any defendant".  It's also important to take into account that costs awards in some countries are only a proportion of the actual costs spent on litigation - you can still be out of pocket financially even if you prevail in court.  The cost of suing multiple defendants across multiple jurisdictions will not be small and the process will not be a rapid one.


I think that one of the reasons people have been willing to write off losses in the past is a desire to avoid their transactions coming under legal scrutiny.  Making a legally enforceable claim involves identifying yourself, and some people would rather forfeit their funds than do that.