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JoelKatz

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Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.

Quote from: sublime5447 on September 10, 2013, 10:38:07 AM

So jack has usd in his account from selling the btc...and jill has btc in here PP bitcoin wallet... jill is a lying bitch and says she didnt buy that..

This is what happens the usd in jacks account is frozen while they review... they see that oh look jack did send the bitcoin it is in jills PP wallet.. case close give jack his money back..

ya got any more brain busters?

This would be an absolute disaster. If PayPal adopted this policy, the rate at which PayPal accounts are stolen would go through the roof as thieves used malware to get people's PayPal login information and easily converted that to Bitcoins. Victims would complain to their banks when PayPal doesn't help them, they would reverse ACH transactions, dispute credit card charges, and PayPal would severely damage their banking relationships.

sublime5447

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"I don't really have the patience to try to explain something to someone who isn't listening. If you really think you're right, start a company that lets people buy Bitcoins easily with a credit card and you should make lots of money."

I do have a business that allows people to buy bitcoins with credit card... and have been running it profitably for almost a year now.. look at my trust rating everyone of those transactions was done with you guessed it... Paypal... I have never used anything but paypal to buy or sell coins.

"Okay, so what does PayPal do? You still haven't answered the question. I've asked a very specific question with a very specific scenario and asked you what PayPal does. I'll try it again:

1) Jack sells Bitcoins for USD using PayPal.

2) Jack receives USD over PayPal from Jill's account.

3) Jack sends Bitcoins.

4) Jill complains to PayPal that her account shows a payment she didn't authorize.

Specifically, what does PayPal do?

(If your thinking "Whatever they do when this happens now", the answer is that this *never* happens now because they don't allow you to use PayPal to buy Bitcoins. The difference matters.)"

This is not a problem bro how fucking easy would it be to tell if she authorized the payment or not? This shit happens every day with usd!

Specifically what paypal does in cased of unauthorized use is to freeze the funds... it would be no different with bitcoins!!!

So jack has usd in his account from selling the btc...and jill has btc in here PP bitcoin wallet... jill is a lying bitch and says she didnt buy that..

This is what happens the usd in jacks account is frozen while they review... they see that oh look jack did send the bitcoin it is in jills PP wallet.. case close give jack his money back..

ya got any more brain busters?

CoinsForTech

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Activity: 698

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5% Bitcoin Discount - All Orders

Quote from: favdesu on September 10, 2013, 01:28:06 AM

I like the idea of spreading the word... but PayPal? Really?

+ 1

I sincerely hope the rise of bitcoin equals the fall of PayPal

favdesu

legendary

Activity: 1764

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I like the idea of spreading the word... but PayPal? Really?

JoelKatz

legendary

Activity: 1596

Merit: 1012

Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.

Quote from: sublime5447 on September 09, 2013, 10:47:27 PM

"PayPal is good with those cases because they aren't dealing with hard, irreversible payments."

This is dribble.. any payment is reversible if they have complete access to my accounts.. either that or they close my account and make an insurance claim.

I don't really have the patience to try to explain something to someone who isn't listening. If you really think you're right, start a company that lets people buy Bitcoins easily with a credit card and you should make lots of money.

Quote

"The sender claims they didn't authorize the USD payment and their account was hacked. There is no way to tell who actually received the Bitcoins or where they went, even seconds after they've been sent."

It is easy for paypal to tell if you were hacked or not. They do it all the time.

Okay, so what does PayPal do? You still haven't answered the question. I've asked a very specific question with a very specific scenario and asked you what PayPal does. I'll try it again:

1) Jack sells Bitcoins for USD using PayPal.

2) Jack receives USD over PayPal from Jill's account.

3) Jack sends Bitcoins.

4) Jill complains to PayPal that her account shows a payment she didn't authorize.

Specifically, what does PayPal do?

(If your thinking "Whatever they do when this happens now", the answer is that this *never* happens now because they don't allow you to use PayPal to buy Bitcoins. The difference matters.)

sublime5447

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"PayPal is good with those cases because they aren't dealing with hard, irreversible payments."

This is dribble.. any payment is reversible if they have complete access to my accounts.. either that or they close my account and make an insurance claim.

sublime5447

legendary

Activity: 966

Merit: 1000

What do you think? that if someone sends me a usd payment then i send that payment to someone else then the original sender charges back that they go to the account of who ever received the funds and confiscate them? that is not the way it works.

sublime5447

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Activity: 966

Merit: 1000

Bitcoin transactions, unlike USD transactions, are irreversible. They can't seize the USD funds because they owner of those funds claims the payment was unauthorized. PayPal is good with those cases because they aren't dealing with hard, irreversible payments.

I have a paypal debit... someone pays me and then I got to the atm and withdraw the funds... nothing left in the bank nothing left on paypal.. how is that any different than.. I have a btc address someone pays me in btc I transfer out of paypal.. they charge back an there are no funds left.. it is not different.

sublime5447

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"The problem is if USD founds are not involved. Bitcoins transactions, unlike USD transactions, are irreversible"

of course the transaction would be reversible Dont you get it ? If you have a paypal account they just go in and seize your funds. What is the worst case scenario? they have to pay you back in usd and not bitcoin! I mean I can run a scam with usd and then take all the funds and let them freeze a bank account with nothing in it. When someone charges back they dont take the exact funds that is paid in it wouldnt matter if the btc was there or not, who cares? they just take what ever you got and put your bank account negative.

"The sender claims they didn't authorize the USD payment and their account was hacked. There is no way to tell who actually received the Bitcoins or where they went, even seconds after they've been sent."

It is easy for paypal to tell if you were hacked or not. They do it all the time.

"There is no way to tell who actually received the Bitcoins"

Yes there would.. if you have a pp bitcoin account they would know every transaction that happened with it. They would assign you a PP bitcoin address and would know if you sent or received to that address or any customers address... it is all public record!

JoelKatz

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Activity: 1596

Merit: 1012

Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.

Quote from: sublime5447 on September 09, 2013, 08:49:08 PM

The reasons for charge back would be non delivery or unauthorized use. In these cases say you paid in btc and then item didnt show. They would do what they do in every case seize the funds... If the btc has been spent they would simply seize the usd funds in the account or their bank account. Same thing for unauthorized use. Paypal is very good when it comes to investigating these cases... they can tell if you where hacked or not.

Bitcoin transactions, unlike USD transactions, are irreversible. They can't seize the USD funds because they owner of those funds claims the payment was unauthorized. PayPal is good with those cases because they aren't dealing with hard, irreversible payments.

Quote

The main use of pp for bitcoin would be conversion. Under that scenario it would be very easy for them to settle disputes as the block chain transaction details are not able to be manipulated.

You're just waving your hands and ignoring the issues as if that would make them go away. Let's try another one:

1) I'm a Bitcoin seller.

2) Someone agrees to buy Bitcoins from me.

3) A USD PayPal payment is made to me.

4) I send the Bitcoins.

5) The sender claims they didn't authorize the USD payment and their account was hacked. There is no way to tell who actually received the Bitcoins or where they went, even seconds after they've been sent.

What does PayPal do?

The fundamental problem is that Bitcoin payments are hard and irreversible while USD payments are soft and reversible. It is a very thorny problem to be a middleman in mixed hard/soft transactions where the middleman cannot trust either endpoint.

If you think you can make this work, forget about PayPal. Sell Bitcoins and let people pay with a credit card. You'll make a ton of money -- except you won't because it doesn't work.

sublime5447

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Merit: 1000

Quote from: JoelKatz on September 09, 2013, 08:27:34 PM

Quote from: sublime5447 on September 09, 2013, 06:51:01 PM

Paypal would have a btc address assigned to your paypal account. If you wanted to trade them out for currency or sell them for paypal you would simply send coins to your paypal bitcoin wallet. It would easy for paypal to do it.

Then explain how they would do it. Here's the scenario again:

1) I pay dollars for something.

2) The seller takes his money in Bitcoins.

3) I dispute the transaction.

What happens? Does PayPal cover my dollars? Where does PayPal get the Bitcoins to pay the seller?

For this to work, someone would have to provide PayPal a service to and from Bitcoins that provided substantially the same semantics as their current USD and EUR services. For very good reasons, that doesn't exist. PayPal is a soft monetary exchange, Bitcoins do not have any soft exchange. Matching soft to hard systems is very difficult if neither endpoint can be trusted by the middleman, which is PayPal's model.

And if you're going to tell PayPal to support Bitcoins but not provide any buyer or seller protection, they'll wind up providing a Bitcoin service that even Bitcoin enthusiasts will recommend against using. (This is why common advice is to use PayPal, not Bitcoins, when the buyer and seller cannot trust each other!)

I guess what I am saying is paypal has you by the short hairs. They take no risk. In the event of a charge back they seize your bank account. The only thing paypal has to worry about is end game strategy.. for example someone is leaving the country and wont need their old bank account.

Walsoraj

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Ultranode

i changed my mind. In fact, lets petition paypal to add hundreds of altcoins as well.

Makes perfect sense.

Cheesy

sublime5447

legendary

Activity: 966

Merit: 1000

i cant go with your scenario here.

Let me get this straight.

You buy something... the guy you bought it from doesnt want usd he wants BTC.. he is shit out of luck he took payment in usd, bitcoins never entered the picture.

This brings up issues of conversion, which paypal does for me all the time from every currency in the world to usd... if they wanted to add btc they could do it, but lets forget about exchanges lets just focus on payment acceptance.

Lets say for simplicity sake that you paid in bitcoin and charged back.

The reasons for charge back would be non delivery or unauthorized use. In these cases say you paid in btc and then item didnt show. They would do what they do in every case seize the funds... If the btc has been spent they would simply seize the usd funds in the account or their bank account. Same thing for unauthorized use. Paypal is very good when it comes to investigating these cases... they can tell if you where hacked or not.

The main use of pp for bitcoin would be conversion. Under that scenario it would be very easy for them to settle disputes as the block chain transaction details are not able to be manipulated.

JoelKatz

legendary

Activity: 1596

Merit: 1012

Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.

Quote from: sublime5447 on September 09, 2013, 06:51:01 PM

Paypal would have a btc address assigned to your paypal account. If you wanted to trade them out for currency or sell them for paypal you would simply send coins to your paypal bitcoin wallet. It would easy for paypal to do it.

Then explain how they would do it. Here's the scenario again:

1) I pay dollars for something.

2) The seller takes his money in Bitcoins.

3) I dispute the transaction.

What happens? Does PayPal cover my dollars? Where does PayPal get the Bitcoins to pay the seller?

For this to work, someone would have to provide PayPal a service to and from Bitcoins that provided substantially the same semantics as their current USD and EUR services. For very good reasons, that doesn't exist. PayPal is a soft monetary exchange, Bitcoins do not have any soft exchange. Matching soft to hard systems is very difficult if neither endpoint can be trusted by the middleman, which is PayPal's model.

And if you're going to tell PayPal to support Bitcoins but not provide any buyer or seller protection, they'll wind up providing a Bitcoin service that even Bitcoin enthusiasts will recommend against using. (This is why common advice is to use PayPal, not Bitcoins, when the buyer and seller cannot trust each other!)

sublime5447

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Activity: 966

Merit: 1000

Quote from: JoelKatz on September 09, 2013, 06:09:13 PM

Quote from: jackjack on September 09, 2013, 05:43:41 PM

Pretty obvious for an ASIC pre-order...

Right, but how would that work if PayPal permitted transactions in Bitcoins? Would they provide protection only for non-Bitcoin transactions? And thus the Bitcoin community, the community they'd be catering to by doing this in the first place, would still advise not using their service? Or would they provide protection for Bitcoin transactions? If so, how?

If you're going to petition someone to do something, the very first thing to do is to decide exactly what it is you want them to do. Ideally, such that you would support them if they did it. There are ways PayPal could be more Bitcoin friendly. These are not them.

"Or would they provide protection for Bitcoin transactions? If so, how?"

Paypal would have a btc address assigned to your paypal account. If you wanted to trade them out for currency or sell them for paypal you would simply send coins to your paypal bitcoin wallet. It would easy for paypal to do it.

will1982

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Quote from: jackjack on September 09, 2013, 05:32:00 PM

Quote from: will1982 on September 09, 2013, 05:13:12 PM

parents don't let me use alternative methods, because they all need a bank account ("You're gonna spend all your savings") or an SSN ("You're gonna have your identity stolen!")

Quote

will1982

Quote

will1982

Heh, it's my house number, not my birth year

JoelKatz

legendary

Activity: 1596

Merit: 1012

Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.

Quote from: jackjack on September 09, 2013, 05:43:41 PM

Pretty obvious for an ASIC pre-order...

Right, but how would that work if PayPal permitted transactions in Bitcoins? Would they provide protection only for non-Bitcoin transactions? And thus the Bitcoin community, the community they'd be catering to by doing this in the first place, would still advise not using their service? Or would they provide protection for Bitcoin transactions? If so, how?

If you're going to petition someone to do something, the very first thing to do is to decide exactly what it is you want them to do. Ideally, such that you would support them if they did it. There are ways PayPal could be more Bitcoin friendly. These are not them.

sublime5447

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Activity: 966

Merit: 1000

Or a take out order or purchase for just about anything on the face of the plant.

BTC is good to get blow and weed next to nothing else.

jackjack

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May Bitcoin be touched by his Noodly Appendage

Quote from: Frizz23 on September 09, 2013, 05:38:01 PM

It seems the community itself advises to prefer PayPal over BTC.

The following is from an ASIC vendors forum. There are postings like this all over the place:

Pretty obvious for an ASIC pre-order...

Frizz23

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Activity: 1162

Merit: 500

It seems the community itself advises to prefer PayPal over BTC.

The following is from an ASIC vendors forum. There are postings like this all over the place:

Topic: closed. - page 4. (Read 7974 times)