COINROYALE.COM • Provably Fair • 1 BTC Video Poker Tourney • 10% Casino Rebate - page 122.

arallmuus

legendary

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Quote from: ?? on ??

1- Obviously you are not understanding correctly

Obviously it is you that is not

Quote from: ?? on ??

Last point, we do not care about the bug.

It seems you do , based on the references below that you keep on insisting that there is a bug that give an edge to the player but you are getting more losses then wins. If you simply dont care about this then there is no point in discussing this further isnt it? but the fact is that you keep insisting that there is a "problem" .

If you will enlighten the conversation here, how many percentage of edge are we discussing about? Either way there will be two scenarios later , the former will be that there is an issue with CoinRoyale shuffling method and the later is that there is no bug that you give you an edge . I am merely more into the later option though Im eager to see how this turns out

References :

Quote from: ?? on ??

We are simply saying that we know of a bug that gives us an edge and even after playing 15,000 hands we are not winning even close to half of the time.

cryptosmoker

sr. member

Activity: 581

Merit: 250

Quote from: ?? on ??

Arallmuus
1- Obviously you are not understanding correctly, we know if the dealer is Pat or will take a card BEFORE the down card is exposed.

2- I am glad you know that a dealer needs to hit until he has a 17 that is invaluable info to have

3 - As for the comment about variance, we have played in excess of 15,000 hands at this casino and have the data from 12,000 of them that was given to us by CoinRoyale.

Last point, we do not care about the bug, refer to the post above. We have not accused anyone of cheating at CoinRoyale. We are simply saying that we know of a bug that gives us an edge and even after playing 15,000 hands we are not winning even close to half of the time. Therefore we are saying that there is a potential problem with the game, most likely in the shuffling.

We are trying to work with CoinRoyale to figure it out, and have asked appropriate questions that have not been answered yet.

If you want to think that the software is PERFECT and that there is NO WAY possible the shuffling could have an issue then I'm happy for you. Maybe we need to get these guys jobs at Microsoft or writing a True Random Number generator since no one else writes perfect software or has figured out a true random number generator.

You forgot the part where you post facts to back up your argument. You've been given all the tools you need, theyre being completely transparent (Unlike so many others...)

arallmuus

legendary

Activity: 2562

Merit: 1414

Quote from: FrozenOne on August 21, 2015, 06:40:22 AM

This StatsMan guy is making me lol. You found a bug, huh? While that is possible I find it highly improbable. I'll be watching this closely. I love this site!

He actually "think" that he found a bug ( atleast this is my impression is ) but it seems he is having more losses rather than win which is why he is accusing things to be not fair here ( again this is my impression judging from the whole conversation ) which means that either there isnt any "bug" at all in the firsthand or that he is having a very bad run. Eitherway this whole conversation wont be happening now if he is winning the game

Quote from: win win win on August 21, 2015, 06:51:30 AM

Quote from: arallmuus on August 21, 2015, 06:21:49 AM

I did and literally I dont mind them for not showing it as they have proven themselves so far (yet this doesnt mean anything for future reputation though ) . Plus that it is not like that they are giving thousands of BTC jackpots unlike the other site

They have a BTC2 max bet per box on BJ a player can win 100's of BTC's in a very short time.

Some dice site even has 20 BTC max payout and some other site advertized over 60k BTC jackpot without providing any proof of cold storage as well. If CoinRoyale is a new site around here than I would agree with you it is better for them to show proof of their cold storage but so far there they have seem to be able to maintain their reputation here

P.S : do note that my opinion isnt mean to take their sides as Im merely neutral in this case and I am merely stating my opinion

win win win

sr. member

Activity: 277

Merit: 255

Quote from: arallmuus on August 21, 2015, 06:21:49 AM

Quote from: win win win on August 20, 2015, 08:49:40 PM

Do you support that decision? Do you play at this casino?

I did and literally I dont mind them for not showing it as they have proven themselves so far (yet this doesnt mean anything for future reputation though ) . Plus that it is not like that they are giving thousands of BTC jackpots unlike the other site

They have a BTC2 max bet per box on BJ a player can win 100's of BTC's in a very short time.

FrozenOne

sr. member

Activity: 266

Merit: 250

This StatsMan guy is making me lol. You found a bug, huh? While that is possible I find it highly improbable. I'll be watching this closely. I love this site!

arallmuus

legendary

Activity: 2562

Merit: 1414

Quote from: victorhing on August 20, 2015, 12:45:00 PM

Really appreciate you answering in this thread (and your previous reply on clarifying provably fair).

No problem

Quote from: win win win on August 20, 2015, 08:49:40 PM

Do you support that decision? Do you play at this casino?

I did and literally I dont mind them for not showing it as they have proven themselves so far (yet this doesnt mean anything for future reputation though ) . Plus that it is not like that they are giving thousands of BTC jackpots unlike the other site

Quote from: ?? on ??

I will make a video of the bug and show the proof. Then I will bet you 10BTC that there is a bug that gives the player an advantage. We can use a reputable escrow service. Then once you and the escrow agent have viewed the video, he can release the BTC.

Tempting but I will have to decline this

Quote from: ?? on ??

The reason for the big dollar amount is to compensate us for the money you could make from exploiting the bug.

You can use that for yourself as well though. Exploiting things is not really my way though I would love to get compensation for providing some bug

.

Quote from: ?? on ??

I personally to not gamble but I do not see this as gambling because I know with 100% certainty there is a bug that gives the player an advantage if it is exploited.

There is and you can get more than 10BTC if there is literally a bug like you have quoted . Simply provide the proof to Coinroyale and they will compensate you though Wink

.

Quote from: ?? on ??

2- We have stated that even with the edge of knowing when we will win, we cannot beat your game.

Depends, you cant expect to win most of them in a very short run even with the edge in your favour. Variance is there to ruin it though.

Quote from: ?? on ??

we can tell when the dealer is going to hit

Am I reading this correctly? Of course you know when the dealer is going to hit. The house is using the rules of soft17 which means that unless dealer has 17 or higher then it will keep on hitting

cryptosmoker

sr. member

Activity: 581

Merit: 250

Quote from: ?? on ??

And I think you have misread my statements and my buddies statements. Let me put this is easy terms to follow:

1- We have stated that we have a way of knowing how the hand is going to turn out before the hand is complete. Specifically he said this in the original email -
"a few "tells" that give the cards away on your BJ game and even having that info (which is very reliable in your BJ game) I was unable to beat it 90% of the time."
"Obviously, I do not know the cards that are going to be dealt but I know if I can win the hand before I hit or not, which is invaluable info to have in a game of BJ usually"

2- We have stated that even with the edge of knowing when we will win, we cannot beat your game.

3- The conclusion from the first 2 has made us think the following:
If a player has a small edge over the house, yet loses more than he wins and has played a statistically significant number of hands then there is a problem with the game.

The last point I would like to make is the following:
Not one single time have we stated that there is a Pattern to the game - we are not using a pattern in the card dealing to aid in knowing the hands. Therefore, in regards to your post- statements 1, 2 and 3 are irrelevant to the conversation we are having.

Last thing I am going to say about the bug - We can tell when the dealer has a pat hand, we can tell when the dealer is going to hit, we can tell when the dealer is going to bust (but that can be swayed by us taking a card. The flip side of that is that we have the same info about our hands because of the dealers hand. As it was stated in the email, we know when we are drawing dead and when we can win.

It seems to me that victorhing has proven that the games are fair enough to the point that you should either provide evidence that suggests otherwise - or agree that they are indeed fair. Unfortunately the most common outcome in these scenarios is the accusing party chooses to do neither.

victorhing

legendary

Activity: 1435

Merit: 1123

CoinRoyale.com

Quote from: ?? on ??

Victorhing, you and your team did not read the email correctly. The example you gave was not what was implied in the email. I am ok if they dismiss it, I guess you would prefer that the bug be released to the public.

The bug allows the person to know if the dealer has a pat hand or will need to draw, and it also allows the player to know who will win the hand before it is played. This is easy to take advantage of by doubling down on any hand you know you are going to win, thereby giving the player an advantage. The only flaw in the game is that the cards seem to be dealt on the dealers favor more than a random amount.

The example I quoted in the previous reply was almost exactly (except I changed the number to A,B,C,D) what we've been told in the email. We take all the reported bugs seriously. The reasons we initially dismissed it are:

1) We've received many similar emails who claimed they saw a "pattern" in card dealing. And the one your friend sent is exactly that.

2) We know that no such pattern exists, all cards are randomly shuffled and the shuffling system is exactly the same for blackjack, baccarat, or video poker. Anyone can prove our fairness with our provably fair system, without reviewing our code.

3) The issue did not gain much of our attention because we didn't lose any bitcoins from your friend who, as you said, been trying to exploit it. The reason behind that, as you mentioned, is there's a flaw in our card system that favors the dealer. And as I mentioned in 2), we know that our card shuffling system is fair and random. Hence the dismissal.

However, with your continuous insistence that there is a bug, I've requested more information from your friend with a promise of bug bounty. And if there's such a bug, rest assured you'll be generously rewarded.

For your card shuffling question, I've passed them to our tech team and they will answer you shortly.

And as we speak, one of our technical team is working on processing the raw data (to show the final state of the game) to aid your statistical analysis.

win win win

sr. member

Activity: 277

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Quote from: ?? on ??

arallmuus - since it seems that most people reading this thread gamble, how about this wager:

I will make a video of the bug and show the proof. Then I will bet you 10BTC that there is a bug that gives the player an advantage. We can use a reputable escrow service. Then once you and the escrow agent have viewed the video, he can release the BTC.

The reason for the big dollar amount is to compensate us for the money you could make from exploiting the bug.

I personally to not gamble but I do not see this as gambling because I know with 100% certainty there is a bug that gives the player an advantage if it is exploited.

*In a fair game, you mean

I would be careful with using 100% claims as nothing is ever 100%.

win win win

sr. member

Activity: 277

Merit: 255

Quote from: panjul07 on August 20, 2015, 11:25:22 AM

Quote from: win win win on August 20, 2015, 05:11:52 AM

It's shocking that they haven't replied to this or my request for proof of cold storage bankroll.

If you can give me stats of *total loss* and *bet size* I can approximate if its within the realms of normal variance in seconds.

Proof of cold storage does not mean anything IMHO, even a site which provide it still has the chance to not pay...

Do you worry that they will not pay if you win big?

It means something, a lot infact. It's a shame that it's not a standardized requirement. Gamblers rarely care

Quote from: arallmuus on August 20, 2015, 12:08:59 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

The edge that my friend has is probably fairly small but is completely neutralized by the incredible hands the dealer seems to get, at least that is what I have witnessed the few times we have played together.

If your friend actually has an "edge" than it means that your friend are bound to win in the long run. Having the edge in your favor doesnt mean that you will keep on winning or that you will not lose because of the dealer's "luck as few bad hands are unnavoidable situation though I have never seen anything about bug in BlackJack that gives player an edge

Quote from: ?? on ??

Interestingly, CoinRoyale has not asked my friend about the bug nor even mentioned it in any correspondence. I would think that a casino would inquire about any problem or bug. I guess if they are winning what would be the point.

Message this guy directly for the bug, he is the admin

https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/victorhing-151862

Quote from: win win win on August 20, 2015, 05:11:52 AM

my request for proof of cold storage bankroll.

They have replied to your request already, they will not be showing proof of their cold storage

Quote from: victorhing on July 30, 2015, 01:24:13 PM

Showing a cold wallet address doesn't mean anything as the shady operator can still choose not to payout. We have been around for 1+ years (closer to 2 years) and never have any unresolved withdrawal issues. Our reputation speaks louder than anything.

Do you support that decision? Do you play at this casino?

victorhing

legendary

Activity: 1435

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CoinRoyale.com

Quote from: arallmuus on August 20, 2015, 12:08:59 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

The edge that my friend has is probably fairly small but is completely neutralized by the incredible hands the dealer seems to get, at least that is what I have witnessed the few times we have played together.

If your friend actually has an "edge" than it means that your friend are bound to win in the long run. Having the edge in your favor doesnt mean that you will keep on winning or that you will not lose because of the dealer's "luck as few bad hands are unnavoidable situation though I have never seen anything about bug in BlackJack that gives player an edge

Quote from: ?? on ??

Interestingly, CoinRoyale has not asked my friend about the bug nor even mentioned it in any correspondence. I would think that a casino would inquire about any problem or bug. I guess if they are winning what would be the point.

Message this guy directly for the bug, he is the admin

https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/victorhing-151862

Quote from: win win win on August 20, 2015, 05:11:52 AM

my request for proof of cold storage bankroll.

They have replied to your request already, they will not be showing proof of their cold storage

Quote from: victorhing on July 30, 2015, 01:24:13 PM

Showing a cold wallet address doesn't mean anything as the shady operator can still choose not to payout. We have been around for 1+ years (closer to 2 years) and never have any unresolved withdrawal issues. Our reputation speaks louder than anything.

Really appreciate you answering in this thread (and your previous reply on clarifying provably fair).

victorhing

legendary

Activity: 1435

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CoinRoyale.com

Quote from: ?? on ??

We just finished a long round and played it pretty much by the standard BJ "rules". We have asked CoinRoyale to forward the hands played just for this game. The game tonight was hundreds of hands long and is one that would be difficult to explain. We estimated that about 40% of the dealers hands were 20 after the first 4 cards were dealt. Incredibly high for a long game but I do not want to spread false info and will update it when we get those hands forwarded to us.

The raw data that was forwarded is in a format that requires me to play out the hands - (gives the shuffled deck and cards taken) and does not show the results of the game, it is painstaking to perform the analysis. It is around 12,000 hands. If anyone wants to help out and knows how to write a script that would calculate the game results it would be extremely helpful.

The edge that my friend has is probably fairly small but is completely neutralized by the incredible hands the dealer seems to get, at least that is what I have witnessed the few times we have played together.

Interestingly, CoinRoyale has not asked my friend about the bug nor even mentioned it in any correspondence. I would think that a casino would inquire about any problem or bug. I guess if they are winning what would be the point.

Sorry I just saw this. Our team (including myself) are busy working on something big and couldn't spend as much time on the forum as we like.

Anyway, we did receive your friend's request for the games and he should have it by tomorrow. We're always willing to send players their historical games and even encourage them to post it on the forum so everyone can see it.

Regarding the reported bug, I passed it to our team and they dismissed it as purely coincidental (confirmation bias). Basically this is what's been reported:

1) Dealer has card A and card B
2) Player has card C and card D
3) The next card for dealer has to be card E!

Our cards are randomly shuffle (and have a similar shuffling system for all card games like Baccarat, Video Poker) with the outcome directly control by the player with the player seed he's able to enter. Everything can be easily proven after the game with all the information we've provided: https://coinroyale.com/provablyfair
We made the page easy to understand and more than happy to walk you through step by step to verify the result and explain how it works (it's a beautiful system).

arallmuus

legendary

Activity: 2562

Merit: 1414

Quote from: ?? on ??

The edge that my friend has is probably fairly small but is completely neutralized by the incredible hands the dealer seems to get, at least that is what I have witnessed the few times we have played together.

If your friend actually has an "edge" than it means that your friend are bound to win in the long run. Having the edge in your favor doesnt mean that you will keep on winning or that you will not lose because of the dealer's "luck as few bad hands are unnavoidable situation though I have never seen anything about bug in BlackJack that gives player an edge

Quote from: ?? on ??

Interestingly, CoinRoyale has not asked my friend about the bug nor even mentioned it in any correspondence. I would think that a casino would inquire about any problem or bug. I guess if they are winning what would be the point.

Message this guy directly for the bug, he is the admin

https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/victorhing-151862

Quote from: win win win on August 20, 2015, 05:11:52 AM

my request for proof of cold storage bankroll.

They have replied to your request already, they will not be showing proof of their cold storage

Quote from: victorhing on July 30, 2015, 01:24:13 PM

Showing a cold wallet address doesn't mean anything as the shady operator can still choose not to payout. We have been around for 1+ years (closer to 2 years) and never have any unresolved withdrawal issues. Our reputation speaks louder than anything.

panjul07

legendary

Activity: 3500

Merit: 1354

Quote from: win win win on August 20, 2015, 05:11:52 AM

It's shocking that they haven't replied to this or my request for proof of cold storage bankroll.

If you can give me stats of *total loss* and *bet size* I can approximate if its within the realms of normal variance in seconds.

Proof of cold storage does not mean anything IMHO, even a site which provide it still has the chance to not pay...

Do you worry that they will not pay if you win big?

win win win

sr. member

Activity: 277

Merit: 255

It's shocking that they haven't replied to this or my request for proof of cold storage bankroll.

If you can give me stats of *total loss* and *bet size* I can approximate if its within the realms of normal variance in seconds.

win win win

sr. member

Activity: 277

Merit: 255

Quote from: ?? on ??

I am pleased to say that the "hands played" information was passed on to me this evening. It is a ton of raw data and it may take longer than a day or 2 to go through it. I want to give a thank you to the guys at Coinroyale for going through the hassle of getting all of that raw data. I do not know the specifics of what has taken place since he told them about the bug. I am sure he will chime in at some point since he is the one that asked me to post it here.

I might be able to do this in seconds, if you are interested in help hit me up. Do you know his edge with the bug?

I'll follow your progress anyway, Interesting to see how many standard deviations he is losing by.

joksim299

legendary

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Merit: 1014

Bitdice is scam scam scammmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Quote from: darkangel11 on August 16, 2015, 08:01:25 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Thanks for the explanation, I at least have an elementary understanding of how it works. I am still waiting on Coin Royale to send the list of hands played and hope to have the results calculated out within a few days. Thanks again.

I also hope it gets cleared and your friend receives some compensation for finding the bug. Keep us informed. Wink

If there is a bug he will get bug bounty , everybody who reported a valid bug received it.

darkangel11

legendary

Activity: 2296

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Don't let others control your BTC -> self custody

Quote from: ?? on ??

Thanks for the explanation, I at least have an elementary understanding of how it works. I am still waiting on Coin Royale to send the list of hands played and hope to have the results calculated out within a few days. Thanks again.

I also hope it gets cleared and your friend receives some compensation for finding the bug. Keep us informed. Wink

arallmuus

legendary

Activity: 2562

Merit: 1414

Quote from: ?? on ??

The dealer seed is provided after the hand is played, which that in itself tells me that the game IS NOT provably fair.

The dealer's seed is provided after the hand is played to ensure fairness. Player would know the outcome of the game if the seed is provided before the game therefore the house hash the initial deck in form of SHA-256 (which is the combination of the server seed as well as the initial deck) Before you start the game, you are shown the hash for the next game and you are free to input your own seed , simply copy the SHA hash and verify it when you think something is fishy ( there are verifier on the site )

Code:

var initialDeck = ["Ah","2h","3h","4h","5h"];
var playerSeed = "lucky";
var seedSHA = sha256.hex(playerSeed);
var seedInt = parseInt(seedSHA.slice(-8), 16);
var mersenneTwister = new MersenneTwister(seedInt);
var finalDeck = fisherYatesShuffle(initialDeck,
                             mersenneTwister);
console.log(finalDeck);

Or simply use that if you dont want to trust the verifier on the site ( which should generate the same result ). The code above is taken from their provably fair pages btw

Quote from: ?? on ??

From my perspective it looks like the dealer seed or "salt" could be changed to find a suitable set of cards that favor the house without ever changing the Player seed.

Correct, that is why you are shown the hashed seed before you start the game to ensure fairness that the house wont be able cheat you unknowingly. The good thing about using this hashed seed is that if the house attempted to change it, the player will know exactly that it has been change . Therefore if you want to verify this, simply copy the hashed seed before the start of the game and double check it after the card is dealt

joksim299

legendary

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Merit: 1014

Bitdice is scam scam scammmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Quote from: syndria on August 14, 2015, 08:39:21 PM

I didnt get any welcome bonus, they're kdding

You have to use WELCOMEBTC bonus code before you make deposit.

Quote

If the bonus code was entered correctly (and your deposit was successful) your bonus will be credited to your account. You’ll be able to view your bonus code details and your bonus progression on the ‘Bonus Programs’ page.

Bonus is released in 0.01BTC increments

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