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Topic: Computer Scientists Prove God Exists - page 19. (Read 25293 times)

BitChick

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Rassah on November 04, 2013, 10:06:16 AM

Aaaaaaalll of that still doesn't explain why you would want to interfere with god's plan should god want to take your children to heaven. Do you think your children will go to hell or somewhere else if you didn't give them vaccines, and they were to die before they had the chance to suffer through years of life on earth?

More b/s. Christian fundamentals do not teach that God's plan is to take everyone to heaven. Sounds like more Catholic crap. The original 'plan' implemented by God was to 'Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it', nothing about dying and going to heaven.

In fact I once had a conversation with an ex-catholic who's daughter was killed being run over by a car. When his local priest tried to console him by telling him the usual nonsense of 'God wanted her as a flower in his garden', the man asked why God chose 'being hit by a car' as his method of taking her. The priest could not provide a sane answer to that and the man came to the conclusion the priest was full of shit and stopped being a Catholic.

Another stupid teaching, which has scarred the reputation of organized religion terribly.

Even though I am not Catholic I can somewhat understand what the priest was trying to accomplish. I think the priest was trying his best to comfort your friend. It is really difficult to know what to say to someone who is grieving like that. Often the best thing is to do is say nothing at all. Just being there is what is needed most of the time and it was foolish for the priest to respond like he did it sounds like.

That said, this world is filled with horrible things, death, sickness, abuse, etc. But we should be hopeful that there is a place where there is no more death, sickness, pain and suffering.

I know we would like to think that this place is for everyone regardless of their choices in this life, but that is not how God ordained it. We can argue with Him. We can fight Him. We can raise our fist at Him and tell Him how incredibly unfair it all seems. But how fair was it for Him to receive beatings and even being crucified on a cross in one of the most horrific deaths this world ever had just for our sins? That seems the most "unfair" thing of all to me and I am forever thankful for that.

It is all in our perception of things.

NewLiberty

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Gresham's Lawyer

Quote from: kokjo on November 04, 2013, 11:20:04 AM

Quote from: NewLiberty on November 04, 2013, 11:08:26 AM

Quote from: kokjo on November 04, 2013, 10:50:53 AM

Based on the premise that Gödel's axioms(the stuff proves rely on) is true the conclusions(god exists) is also true. But it's still up to oneself to decide if the axioms are true or not.

Gödel is indeed mind-bending, confusing, and very scary stuff.

So faith in Gödel may replace faith in Göd? Because if you have the first, then you have a proof of the second, and need no more faith for that?

No, faith in what gödel wrote/said implies faith in god.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del's_ontological_proof

On the other hand, gödel also proved that a system of axioms strong enough to represent the natural numbers are either incomplete(there exists true statements that can not be proven) or inconsistent(there exists a statement that can both be proven and dis-proven).

Yes, I recall my Gödel fondly from undergraduate studies, and I grew up with Games magazine, so lots of Hofstreider
I have Gödel Escher Bach on the reading list for my 13yr old for this year. Though I may start him out with Raymond Smullyan first.
The kid took a practice LSAT test last week and knocked it out of the park, I need stuff like this to keep him humble and distracted from his career of playing and crafting video games so his computer has downtime to mine him some litecoins so he can pay his own academic expenses.

dank

legendary

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You cannot kill love

Quote from: maz on November 04, 2013, 09:33:45 AM

Quote from: BitChick on November 03, 2013, 10:46:00 PM

But He does not murder us. I suppose you could say that the fact that there is a Hell and that we choose to go there is God murdering us?

I'm more worried about your belief in hell than anything else.

We are in hell.

Quote from: superresistant on November 04, 2013, 10:36:03 AM

The universe is a chaos of infinite probabilities.

Only the most probable and logic universe emerge from all the patterns.

Every consciousness act as an observer of the universe.

There is no universe without an observer.

The sum of all observers make the world what it is.

If most of observers believe in the existence of god, it should make god exist.

The only limit is that you cannot make or do something that you believe is impossible.

The only unknown for me is what happen when 2 consciousness observe at the same time with opposite believes ?

Some people believe in god, some don't. Is there stronger consciousness than others ? Are we actually fighting, right now, for god to exist or not ?

MINDFUCK

Read this again.

kokjo

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You are WRONG!

Quote from: NewLiberty on November 04, 2013, 11:08:26 AM

Quote from: kokjo on November 04, 2013, 10:50:53 AM

So faith in Gödel may replace faith in Göd? Because if you have the first, then you have a proof of the second, and need no more faith for that?

NewLiberty

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Gresham's Lawyer

Quote from: kokjo on November 04, 2013, 10:50:53 AM

So faith in Gödel may replace faith in Göd? Because if you have the first, then you have a proof of the second, and need no more faith for that?

Rassah

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Quote from: BitChick on November 04, 2013, 10:58:10 AM

And this I agree with you in part. "Hell" is overused for sure. The English translators thought they were doing us a service by translating Sheol, Hades into Hell and it causes problems. I have gone on tirades about the problem this causes on some of my other posts on different threads. So I totally get that.

That said, eternal damnation is something to be concerned about regardless and it is not a fabrication.

Wait... did you just say, "You're right, hell is a totally made up place, and it was bad of those people to mess up the translation and make up such a place, but we should still worry about going to hell?" How does that even... Huh

Rassah

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Quote from: interlagos on November 04, 2013, 10:37:43 AM

I'm not sure, that having sheep herders as a prerequisite to creation is a scientific way to approach things, especially in the realm of mathematics. This thread is about finding God in logic and I just demonstrated that no matter how you spin it, it is always there.

But the idea that the universe is just composed of our imagination, and that if we can imagine it, it is real, is not based on any science or logic. The sheep herders were not a prerequisite to creation, they were a prerequisite to making up the mythology fairy tale about a being we call god. And I think what I just demonstrated is that yes, if you spin fantasies to fit your own beliefs and imaginations, you can make your own fantasies and imaginations be whatever the hell you want them to be. That's not a very big discovery. It also has no bearing on science or the real world.

Quote from: Rassah on November 04, 2013, 10:22:23 AM

Yes I agree that this universe has me in it. I was born from my parents.

There was no "me" a year before I was born, and thus no "me" for anyone to be relevant to. I wasn't even half a DNA in my dad's sperm at that time. Hell, I wasn't even part of any cell that was in my dad's body at the time, since most of our body's cells get replaced every 3 to 6 months. At most I was some dirt, ready to feed some plant, that was eventually going to feed some cow or chicken. Obviously not sentient, and especially not me.

Quote

The only logical conclusion is that you existed at least as a concept, as an idea, before your physical birth.

Doesn't it take for some conscious brain to form an idea? Who was having me as an idea in their head that far back? I know it wasn't my parents. And even if it was, were they arare of the piece of dirt that was to become a plant that was to become food that was to become my dad that was become sperm that would eventually make me? I highly doubt it.

RodeoX

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The revolution will be monetized!

Hey I just imagined that I am God! That should be proof enough for you all to bow down and worship me, right?
This guy needs to use air-quotes around the word scientist when he calls himself a computer "scientist".

BitChick

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: BitChick on November 04, 2013, 09:46:20 AM

Quote from: maz on November 04, 2013, 09:33:45 AM

Quote from: BitChick on November 03, 2013, 10:46:00 PM

But He does not murder us. I suppose you could say that the fact that there is a Hell and that we choose to go there is God murdering us?

I'm more worried about your belief in hell than anything else.

We all should be worried about Hell.

The 'Hell' you speak of is a fabrication of the Catholic church. It's wrong, manipulative and you need to get your facts right before throwing it around at people.

The Bible uses primarily 2 words in relation to death, 'she'ohl' in Hebrew, and 'hai'des' in Greek. These words are often substituted for the word 'hell' in some bible translations, primarily Catholic ones. Cross referencing scriptures indicates that these terms 'she'ohl' and 'hai'des' are more likely references to the common grave of mankind, a symbolic reference to where all the dead are. No reference to the common catholic teaching of hell fire or torment, but a figurative location where most of mankind sleep in death (peacefully).

Perhaps you mistook it for the reference in the Bible to Gehenna? Gehenna was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem in which dead bodies unworthy of burial were thrown, as well as common garbage which was constantly on fire to avoid disease etc. Jesus used Gehenna to illustrate eternal destruction for people who would not come back from death. No constant torment or hell fire.

The only legitimate use of the word should be in reference to hell'ing potatoes, i.e. to bury them, or cover them up.

Rassah

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Quote from: superresistant on November 04, 2013, 10:36:03 AM

Every consciousness act as an observer of the universe.

There is no universe without an observer.

The sum of all observers make the world what it is.

If most of observers believe in the existence of god, it should make god exist.

Wait, does this mean that when most observers believed the earth was flat, we were on a disk, and it was turtles all the way down?

kokjo

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You are WRONG!

Based on the premise that Gödel's axioms(the stuff proves rely on) is true the conclusions(god exists) is also true. But it's still upto oneself to decide if the axioms are true or not.

Gödel is indeed mindbending, confusing, and very scary stuff.

interlagos

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Quote from: Rassah on November 04, 2013, 10:22:23 AM

Quote from: interlagos on November 04, 2013, 10:17:06 AM

Quote from: Rassah on November 04, 2013, 10:08:51 AM

Quote from: interlagos on November 04, 2013, 10:04:54 AM

Quote from: Rassah on November 04, 2013, 09:57:49 AM

Quote from: interlagos on November 04, 2013, 08:22:44 AM

Simple logic. Assume that in imagination land everything is possible. Then it is very easy to demonstrate, that you cannot imagine the universe guided by physical laws alone, which would give birth to you

What if I can?

Then what you get is "God" equals "You"

Not at all. It just means that I, like everyone else on this planet, can imagine things as I believe they have happened, based on things I know from experience and evidence, but none of my imaginations have any effect on the physical world. Are you redifining the word "god" to mean "anyone who can imagine something?" Then sure, we're all gods, but that's not the god of any religion.

What I am saying is this. Let's define God as the creator of the Universe and let's assume that your imagination is an unbiased pure nothingness, that everything comes out from. Then no matter what Universe you create in your imagination, which also has you in it, what you get is "God" equals "You".

Don't you agree that this Universe has you in it? How did you get here?

I have a better idea. Let's define god as the creation of some stoned sheep herders from millena ago, and let's assume your imagination is biased by your life experiences, where everything you imagine is an amalgamation of things you have seen, heard, or read about. Then, no matter what Universe you create in your imagination, which also has you in it, is just a collection of the things you have experienced before, rearranged in some way that you are biased toward, or that you prefer.

Quote from: Rassah on November 04, 2013, 10:22:23 AM

Yes I agree that this universe has me in it. I was born from my parents.

It doesn't explain how you got here at all. Your parents became yours only after the fact. A year before your birth there was no such concept as "your parents", because all people were equally relevant to you at that point. And if they were all equal, then why did you emerge at all? What triggered that in the Universe?

The only logical conclusion is that you existed at least as a concept, as an idea, before your physical birth.
And if you take that a few steps further you will understand that you are an idea onto itself, the zero point, which transcends even time itself.

superresistant

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NewLiberty

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Gresham's Lawyer

Quote from: interlagos on November 04, 2013, 08:57:55 AM

Well you can refine then that "in imagination land everything that is logical is possible", then what you will arrive at is that your model of the universe is illogical. Isn't that sufficient enough?

Is this how you would like to refine your premise? That all gods are bound by a greater god "logic" and thus not all-powerful?
We can start over with that if you like.

Rassah

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Quote from: interlagos on November 04, 2013, 10:17:06 AM

Quote from: Rassah on November 04, 2013, 10:08:51 AM

Quote from: interlagos on November 04, 2013, 10:04:54 AM

Quote from: Rassah on November 04, 2013, 09:57:49 AM

Quote from: interlagos on November 04, 2013, 08:22:44 AM

What if I can?

Then what you get is "God" equals "You"

interlagos

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Quote from: Rassah on November 04, 2013, 10:08:51 AM

Quote from: interlagos on November 04, 2013, 10:04:54 AM

Quote from: Rassah on November 04, 2013, 09:57:49 AM

Quote from: interlagos on November 04, 2013, 08:22:44 AM

What if I can?

Then what you get is "God" equals "You"

Rassah

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Quote from: BitChick on November 03, 2013, 10:46:00 PM

Without free-will though it just would not be the same. Let's say you had a magic ring and that when you put that ring on a girls finger she fell deeply in love with you and thought you were the most amazing man in the world and worshiped the ground you walked on. Let's say you fell deeply in love with her but there was something in the back of your mind that made you wonder if she really loved you back or not. Wouldn't you want to take of the ring and really see if she loved you because of her own choice or not? You would not want her to be forced to love you would you? God feels the same way about us. He wants to know if we really love Him.

You are using a false comparison, because we are not omniscient. The correct comparison would be thus:

Let's say you had a magic ring and that when you put that ring on a girls finger she fell deeply in love with you and thought you were the most amazing man in the world and worshiped the ground you walked on. Lets also say that you knew exactly whether a girl trully loved you or not, and whether she would love you in the future. Let's say you fell deeply in love with her and, being an omniscient, all powerful god, you also knew if she really loved you back or not regardless of whether or not she was wearing the ring that made her love you. Wouldn't you want to take off the ring and let her love you, or not love you, as you already know she trully does? Wouldn't you want her to be forced to love you if you knew that she doesn't actually love you, and that her not loving you would result in you having to torture her for the rest of existence?

I don't know, if I was the girl in this situation, I would take the ring. Unless you believe that god is not all powerful (I seem to remember that when Adam realized what he did, he actually hid from god in the bushes)

Rassah

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Quote from: interlagos on November 04, 2013, 10:04:54 AM

Quote from: Rassah on November 04, 2013, 09:57:49 AM

Quote from: interlagos on November 04, 2013, 08:22:44 AM

What if I can?

Then what you get is "God" equals "You"

Rassah

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Quote from: BitChick on November 04, 2013, 09:59:16 AM

Quote from: Rassah on November 04, 2013, 12:50:36 AM

Quote from: BitChick on November 03, 2013, 07:21:36 PM

But as a mom I know that the shots will actually keep her from becoming sick later and encountering a disease that could harm her.

Why would you do something so cruel as interfere with God's plan to possibly try to send your children to heaven sooner???

Ahh. I have actually gotten into some heated discussions with other Christians about this. Many Christians have this idea of an "age of accountability." That concept is nowhere in scripture but they think that there is an age in which we are accountable and before that we are not and it is like a free pass to heaven. My logic was if that is true we should not cry if a baby dies but rejoice. We should be the most pro-choice people on earth because all the babies go straight to heaven.

But of course I do not believe that. It goes back to the discussion we have had on other threads. I believe everyone will get a chance to accept or reject Jesus. If not on this earth, in Sheol (which the Bible talks about in many places) and babies would go there as well.

I believe that we each have a plan on this earth that God has for us. If we accept His plan there are great things to accomplish for good in this world. I would not want to lose a child, not just because of the pain of missing him/her, but because the child would miss out on more opportunities to do great things. But God's timing in our death and our life is beyond our understanding.

interlagos

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Quote from: Rassah on November 04, 2013, 09:57:49 AM

Quote from: interlagos on November 04, 2013, 08:22:44 AM

What if I can?

Then what you get is "God" equals "You"

Quote from: Rassah on November 04, 2013, 09:57:49 AM

Quote

You can't have both - yourself sporadically emerging as product of physical laws and yourself designing those laws to begin with, it leads to contradiction.

But you can have yourself sporadically emerging as a product of physical laws, if you were not the one who designed those laws to begin with, and if those laws simply existed as a natural part of our universe.

I would still be the one, who designed the one, ... , who designed the one, who created those laws.
In my imagination I am the root to everything. You can't exclude "yourself" from "your" imagination.