Topic: Decentrally mined currency has failed so far - page 6. (Read 11292 times)

you have had 5 pages of trying to say how decentralised mining is broke.. but then talk about centralised mining and amlkyc of centralised exchanges... try to stick on topic or realise your wrong about your topic. so which is it regulations hurt the big centralised mining farms and exchanges. or regulations cant stop decentralised exchanges and microfarms

but lets answer your numbered points.
1a. i do fast on-chain transactions and trades everyday.. so do hundreds of thousands of others. much much faster then the centralised banking system that can take upto 3-5 days.
1b. AMLKYC is only for fiat based transactions. EG exchanges that only do crypto (not fiat) dont need amlkyc. but if new york becomes the first area that attempts to make bitcoin part of their jurisdiction, then people will just trade elsewhere. its not a fault of bitcoin, thats a fault of humans choice to not lobby for such rules to be abolished.

2. bitcoin doesnt need ring signatures, there are plenty of ways to move funds without anything more than bitcoin-core. put short, move funds to a different address and if anyone asks tell people you gave it to dick, jane and harry. then move funds again into new addresses. bitcoin doesnt need anything new. just human choice on how they reveal real life info to a bitcoin address.

3. PoW algorithm is not out of reach. infact out of 7 billion people we still have not even got to 1 million people to even try yet. so you are trying to cook the gg before its even been laid. just wait until the top 50 organizations take bitcoin on, you will see that instead of maybe 5 big players, you will see 50+ big players and each of those will separately have ways to allow their smaller clients to get their share. thus making decentralisation stronger, not weaker.

you have not even seen bitcoins potential yet or understood the strengths.. certainly not when your topic talks about decentralisation being broke but then you meander to talk about solo mining farms not being able to hide or avoid regulation due to masses of rigs they cant move. you are contradicting yourself..

i can easily set up a mining farm in japan, a mining farm in europe and one in australia i can then either keep them as separate entities and mine separate to each other, or combine the hashpower to point to one server IP
with that said. that one location is just a pool manager software tool on a single server that receives all information from around the world. thus if the authorities track my IP and it happen to be in new york for instance.. all they will find is a server.. they shut down the server and all my rigs across the world hop over to another server in seconds and continue mining.

i do not need the bitcoin-core devs to change a thing.
and with that analogy i am proving that decentralisation is not broken. but infact PEOPLE are not choosing to be decentralised enough. for instance Ghash can keep their hash power, but scatter the rigs across different locations. making decentralisation the cure to your worries. and not the worry itself.

Oblivious shares mean that the block contents are not disclosed to the hasher. The hasher may be working on a malicious branch of the chain without even knowing about it. They may even be crushing start-up alt-coins, or embeding prayers in the block-chain.

That would be true for you guys, but the problem is Bitcoin is being pushed now to the masses on Paypal, etc..

Once the powers-that-be (e.g. Peter Thiel) have a critical mass of sheeple on Bitcoin, they can move forward with the regulation.

I've been able to clearly see their plan way before they started to implement it. I tried to warn but nobody listens to me.

I am not able to grasp your logic. Please clarify what is your point?

The eligius pool has been going in the opposite direction.

They encourage miners to build their own blocks using the getblocktemplate protocol.

I am not sure I would trust a pool that makes it impossible to verify they are not attacking the network.

No, bitcoin wouldn't fork if pools became regulated.  
I don't think anyone is suggesting that, and that
wouldn't fix anything anyway as there is nothing
in the protocol to force inclusion.  (If you can solve
forced inclusion in a way that works, everyone
would love to know).  In other words, the same
problem of blacklisting could happen again on the
new coin.

However, if regulated pools started supporting blacklists and threatened fungibility,
people would (I hope) recognize that this is unacceptable and simply leave those pools.

You can't move and escape FATCA. I explained why upthread. The control the USA has will catch up to all jurisdictions. You forget that the debtor is slave to the lender. The entire globe is short the dollar, because of massive dollar loans due to QE. The powers-that-be planned very well. The USA will be the strongest of the world for another decade or so, just long enough to complete all the confiscation of the world's wealth before they do the monetary reset and new world order peace in 2032.


I am talking now about designing a solution and you are arguing against it. Just stay with Bitcoin everything is fine. We just need more of people like you to be sure regulations move faster than we can.


One large example is enough to teach the others how to protect their investment, i.e. don't fight with City Hall.


For you the entire world's problems can resolved in church by singing "decentralized halleluiah". Never mind actually preparing and implementing. Just a word and a lot of erroneous fantasy (e.g. category error conflation, "decentralization means piratebay and marijuana is same as Bitcoin" yahooyahoo) is enough for your flock.


"Show us your proof. Uh no proof, okay we are confiscating everything, here is your receipt to show up in court", says the authorities.

So you mean Bitcoin forks and the blacklisted addresses go off into a separate currency that ignores the block solutions from the approved pools fork?

The fork won't have enough hashrate, because the large farms will need to go on approved pools to minimize risk of confiscation. Thus the government can easily sabotage the feeble fork with double-spends.

No fungibility will be lost for those who comply, thus the majority will comply in the interests of maintaining value and fungibility.

None of that applies to the logic of P2Pool though, because even on the feeble fork, it will be more profitable to mine on a regular pool that can't be subject to mining share withholding (assuming the Rosenfeld oblivious shares fix is implemented).

franky1 is just playing political spin games now, trying to spin public opinion and deflect away from the fact that I have completely refuted his nonsense.

franky1, you also continue to be wrong about the Bitcoin protocol. It is broken:

1. It can't support fast transactions on chain, thus encourages off chain, which leads right into the lap of AML and KYC as I explained.

2. It doesn't have ring signatures thus it can't support untraceability and unlinkability. CoinJoin isn't a solution as it can be jammed by an adversary.

3. Its PoW algorithm is hopelessly out-of-the-reach of "download client and mine" for the masses.

Etc..

You were claiming that "regulated" pools would take-over. Such pools would cause profit leakage by black-listing addresses: hurting the fungibility of Bitcoin. Taking a 50% hit on profit may be worth it if it means that Bitcoin remains viable.

Edit:

Do your distrust the things labeled "specification" in this page for some reason?

phillipsjk,

I2P may or may not have some random delay at the node, I've never found a specification for I2P, nor is there is abundant research on I2P. Thus I can't trust what I can't know.

And there remains the problem that the relay nodes can be Sybil attacked (and we'd never know it). I have outlined a solution to that problem.

Also I don't trust I2P because it is operating at a very low-level in the network protocol stack, so I don't know how to characterize all potential de-anonymization correlations that can occur higher up the protocol stack.

Your logic is incorrect on P2Pool because miners will move to a pool that has less leakage of profits.

now thats funny.
i do thank you for realising the difference between the code and physical/human issues. where by you are seemingly running out of arguments concerning the code and now moving onto talking about a physical building and the way humans choose to mine in a certain location, so again thank you.

now that your worrys of the code being broke seem to be subsiding and now the worry of physical location. this too has been talked about a hell of alot over the last few years, and again it does not mean decentralised mining is broke or unrescuable.

i think you have to have a few more pokes in the right direction to see that bitcoin as a whole and decentralized mining as a whole will continue for decades and that the only worry is human choices in regards to how they hide themselves physically(location), identifiably(online data revelations), financially. you will see that those things have nothing to do with the mining software or bitcoin. and are all human choices.

so lets poke you a bit in the direction..
1. if regulation was to come about people WILL move. as such people are already moving out of new york now. EG bitcoin foundation is now in london
2. regulations take time. months infact. more than enough for someone to recode their network software to be more stealthy. more than enough time to ship devices abroad and set up
3. even if one large farm gets shut down due to lack of care, other people will continue to mine on different pools. in short bitcoin wont die if 1 mining farm gets shut down
4. the whole bases of being decentralized is actually better then your worrying scenario's. because you are talking as if every bitcoin miner is in a centralized location. thus meaning centralized/solo mining is dead and cant be rescued. not decentralized.
5. if someone had the choice to continue running a mining farm in NY when its regulated fully. risking getting shutdown for good. OR lose 1 weeks potential income to move everything.. they will choose to move.
6. even if you continue to mine in NY, its easy to say that your a remote mining host for users. and that you are not the one in receipt of the 25btc per block.

nothing needs to be changed on the protocol, just how humans interact and make choices is the only thing that needs to change.

all of your worries (which you cant simply stick to one worry before its slapped to the ground) have been talked about multiple times, and solutions, idea's, concepts. predictions etc have all come from it.

and too be honest im starting to think you are now playing a game that has 3 parts
1. make people panic over nothing
2. mention hubris as many times as possible (must be your word of the week)
3. mention coinjoin as many times as possible.

Why do you claim that I2P is only a low-latency mix-net?

i2pbote supports randomized message delays.

BTW, the block withholding attack shows up as bad pool luck. As long as honest hash-power out-performs the with-holders, P2Pool can still be useable if you can find a fat enough pipe.

Edit: The delay option is mentioned in the "Future Work" section here.

It is not exactly clear what you are referring to, but in any case, miners don't want their earned block rewards to be blacklisted, because then what ever they earned would be worthless. So they will be sure to mine on government approved pools.

Yes.

Yeah I forgot about 911. Now I feel fear, uncertainty, and doubt. Don't they make pills for that?

For not complying with an AML (Anti-Money Laundering) regulation requiring them to blacklist transactions and mining pools which don't require identity for all transactions, e.g. all transactions must originate from Peter Thiel's Coinbase, BitPay, Paypal, Facebook, etc.. where the user has provided the necessary KYC (Know Your Customer) documentation. (Don't you remember all these ignorant fools who are proclaiming Bitcoin doesn't need fast on chain transactions, because off chain services will provide it!)

Are you not aware that Civil Asset Forfeiture is already running amok in the USA.

My gosh it is only 13 years since 9/11 and all the Patriot Act crap which has spread to every country under USA pressure ("you are either with us or against us", POTUS Bush), and you guys are still clueless at the modus operandi for how the powers-that-be are taking control of everything via the terrorism false flag paradigm.

As long as they are paying their taxes and bills, why would any authority do this?

The mining business that doesn't want to be raided by the authorities and have their computers and ASICs farms confiscated.

I think you, franky1 et al fail to appreciate that an ASIC farm is a fixed position investment, with a lot of fixed capital infrastructure. You don't move these without being seen nor without losing some of your capital (downtime, loss of favorable electricity connection, favorable rent lease, etc).

It is as if you guys are living in some Bugs Bunny fantasy world and have never actually run a business.

I never wrote it all down. There are so many cases and thoughts that have transpired. If you are calling out the hubris of "every possible", then granted I could have and probably did miss some possibility.

Could you narrow the scope of the question? Do you mean anonymity strategies? Do you mean network structure? Do you mean factors that impact marketing (e.g. mining for everyone without an ASIC)? And if you are not knowledgeable about how to narrow the scope, then you probably wouldn't understand a very detailed answer any way.

The question is very broad and I don't have time (energy) to write a long essay.

I did for example conclude that amongst anonymity strategies, only one-time ring signatures appears to be viable for on chain anonymity. Up until recently I thought a variant of CoinJoin could work because most people don't care about their anonymity and the person who cares could run their own pool, but I was never able to conjure a design for a viable way to prevent the non-reputation (i.e. randomly selected) pools from being Sybil attacked. The natural paradigm is concentration of pools as I have explained upthread[1] and also because reputation is the one viable way to deal with Sybil attacks. And much credit goes to smooth because he corrected some of my wrong assumptions about one-time ring signatures.

[1]

Quote from: UnunoctiumTesticles on November 29, 2014, 11:46:52 PM In that post I cited: https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/07/11/toward-a-12-second-block-time/ Which links to: https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/06/19/mining/ Quote from: Vitalik Buterin If, in the current 100 PH/s network, you are running an ASIC with 1 TH/s, then every block you have a chance of 1 in 100000 of receiving the block reward of 25 BTC, but the other 99999 times out of 100000 you get exactly nothing. Given that network hashpower is currently doubling every three months (for simplicity, say 12500 blocks), that gives you a probability of 15.9% that your ASIC will ever generate a reward, and a 84.1% chance that the ASIC’s total lifetime earnings will be exactly nothing. 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