Dirty coins | Bitcointalksearch.org

R2D221

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Quote from: aantonopoulis on February 20, 2015, 08:18:28 PM

Quote from: R2D221 on February 20, 2015, 07:02:30 PM

But I still have control of that dirty output. How can I prove everyone that I won't spend it?

It sits there unspent. That's the best you can do.
All your payments to others are untainted.

But the receiver doesn't know that. The most they can do is trust, but the whole point of Bitcoin is not needing to trust.

aantonopoulis

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Quote from: R2D221 on February 20, 2015, 07:02:30 PM

But I still have control of that dirty output. How can I prove everyone that I won't spend it?

It sits there unspent. That's the best you can do.
All your payments to others are untainted.

R2D221

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Quote from: aantonopoulis on February 20, 2015, 06:22:52 PM

Quote from: R2D221 on February 16, 2015, 06:55:01 PM

Quote from: aantonopoulis on February 16, 2015, 06:37:26 PM

Not entirely true, as that unspent output need never be touched. I can move my other coins which I had in this address to another which is now clean, without touching the dirty dust that you sent me.

It's not necessarily dust. Also, I thought we were marking addresses and not individual outputs.

There's no way to "mark" an address on the block chain, other than by sending it coin, that is, creating an unspent output to that address. The owner of the address however never has to touch that output.

In some sense the address is marked, but the owner hasn't spent the "dirty" money there and doesn't have to. He can just leave it and never touch it if he/she so chooses, and still have normal access to the rest of his/her funds.

But I still have control of that dirty output. How can I prove everyone that I won't spend it?

aantonopoulis

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Quote from: R2D221 on February 16, 2015, 06:55:01 PM

Quote from: aantonopoulis on February 16, 2015, 06:37:26 PM

Not entirely true, as that unspent output need never be touched. I can move my other coins which I had in this address to another which is now clean, without touching the dirty dust that you sent me.

It's not necessarily dust. Also, I thought we were marking addresses and not individual outputs.

There's no way to "mark" an address on the block chain, other than by sending it coin, that is, creating an unspent output to that address. The owner of the address however never has to touch that output.

In some sense the address is marked, but the owner hasn't spent the "dirty" money there and doesn't have to. He can just leave it and never touch it if he/she so chooses, and still have normal access to the rest of his/her funds.

onemorebtc

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Quote from: bitkilo on February 18, 2015, 05:55:39 PM

Quote from: onemorebtc on February 18, 2015, 04:54:01 PM

Quote from: Erdogan on February 18, 2015, 03:17:32 PM

The general user of bitcoin will be rather pissed off, if his rightly obtained coins were not accepted somewhere because of taint. So in the aggregate, I think it will not be possible for the enemies of bitcoin to use that as a weapon. Tainting will only work as long as a great majority of users accept the taint and that their coins will at random be declared valueless. And that is not going to happen.

not true. i'd starting looking for taint as soon as courts state that they will confiscate coins which origins from a theft - i am already curious what happens to coinbase customer who have "tainted coins" (i really hate that word) AFAIK they already have lists (for someone who knows better than me: do they acept coins from a mixer without questions?.

I wouldn't put it pass them but why would Coinbase have any right to confiscate "tainted coins", unless they are going to do all the work and hand the coins back to the exchange or wherever the coins were stolen from in the first place, i very much doubt that will happen.

For a court to rule that Coinbase can confiscate their customers coins they would have to prove that the coins will be returned to the rightful owner.

i did not say coinbase would confiscate.
i'd say courts do.

if you have a stolen car you have to give it back to the rightful owner. if you where paid with stolen money thats not the case.

is bitcoin a car or money Wink

(the coinbase question is unrelated to my point about courts. just curious to hear what they do if someone has experienced it - i'd heard before that hey have lists, but dont know how they use them (or even if)) - i am in germany btw. so i dont use coinbase

bitkilo

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Quote from: onemorebtc on February 18, 2015, 04:54:01 PM

Quote from: Erdogan on February 18, 2015, 03:17:32 PM

The general user of bitcoin will be rather pissed off, if his rightly obtained coins were not accepted somewhere because of taint. So in the aggregate, I think it will not be possible for the enemies of bitcoin to use that as a weapon. Tainting will only work as long as a great majority of users accept the taint and that their coins will at random be declared valueless. And that is not going to happen.

not true. i'd starting looking for taint as soon as courts state that they will confiscate coins which origins from a theft - i am already curious what happens to coinbase customer who have "tainted coins" (i really hate that word) AFAIK they already have lists (for someone who knows better than me: do they acept coins from a mixer without questions?.

I wouldn't put it pass them but why would Coinbase have any right to confiscate "tainted coins", unless they are going to do all the work and hand the coins back to the exchange or wherever the coins were stolen from in the first place, i very much doubt that will happen.

For a court to rule that Coinbase can confiscate their customers coins they would have to prove that the coins will be returned to the rightful owner.

onemorebtc

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Quote from: Erdogan on February 18, 2015, 05:03:13 PM

Quote from: onemorebtc on February 18, 2015, 04:54:01 PM

Quote from: Erdogan on February 18, 2015, 03:17:32 PM

The general user of bitcoin will be rather pissed off, if his rightly obtained coins were not accepted somewhere because of taint. So in the aggregate, I think it will not be possible for the enemies of bitcoin to use that as a weapon. Tainting will only work as long as a great majority of users accept the taint and that their coins will at random be declared valueless. And that is not going to happen.

not true. i'd starting looking for taint as soon as courts state that they will confiscate coins which origins from a theft - i am already curious what happens to coinbase customer who have "tainted coins" (i really hate that word) AFAIK they already have lists (for someone who knows better than me: do they acept coins from a mixer without questions?.

They can't enslave you if you don't want to be enslaved.

...i prefer a technical solution like monero for that cases which has true fungibility (which means it is not possible to see if a percentage of my coins are tainted.

sometimes i need something to eat you now? and i'd hate it if my money would get confiscated. dont see a way to dont give it to them when the alternative is to go to prison (maybe you would go for me? you seem altrusitic)

Erdogan

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Quote from: onemorebtc on February 18, 2015, 04:54:01 PM

Quote from: Erdogan on February 18, 2015, 03:17:32 PM

The general user of bitcoin will be rather pissed off, if his rightly obtained coins were not accepted somewhere because of taint. So in the aggregate, I think it will not be possible for the enemies of bitcoin to use that as a weapon. Tainting will only work as long as a great majority of users accept the taint and that their coins will at random be declared valueless. And that is not going to happen.

not true. i'd starting looking for taint as soon as courts state that they will confiscate coins which origins from a theft - i am already curious what happens to coinbase customer who have "tainted coins" (i really hate that word) AFAIK they already have lists (for someone who knows better than me: do they acept coins from a mixer without questions?.

They can't enslave you if you don't want to be enslaved.

onemorebtc

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Activity: 266

Merit: 250

Quote from: Erdogan on February 18, 2015, 03:17:32 PM

The general user of bitcoin will be rather pissed off, if his rightly obtained coins were not accepted somewhere because of taint. So in the aggregate, I think it will not be possible for the enemies of bitcoin to use that as a weapon. Tainting will only work as long as a great majority of users accept the taint and that their coins will at random be declared valueless. And that is not going to happen.

not true. i'd starting looking for taint as soon as courts state that they will confiscate coins which origins from a theft - i am already curious what happens to coinbase customer who have "tainted coins" (i really hate that word) AFAIK they already have lists (for someone who knows better than me: do they acept coins from a mixer without questions?.

Erdogan

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The general user of bitcoin will be rather pissed off, if his rightly obtained coins were not accepted somewhere because of taint. So in the aggregate, I think it will not be possible for the enemies of bitcoin to use that as a weapon. Tainting will only work as long as a great majority of users accept the taint and that their coins will at random be declared valueless. And that is not going to happen.

R2D221

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Quote from: onemorebtc on February 18, 2015, 01:15:43 PM

Quote from: BillyBobZorton on February 18, 2015, 11:44:13 AM

If I put my dirty coins in a usb wallet and clean the usb wallet with soap, do they become clean coins?

yes, because they are gone then Wink

Actually, I don't think the USB would be damaged at all.

onemorebtc

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Quote from: BillyBobZorton on February 18, 2015, 11:44:13 AM

If I put my dirty coins in a usb wallet and clean the usb wallet with soap, do they become clean coins?

yes, because they are gone then Wink

BillyBobZorton

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If I put my dirty coins in a usb wallet and clean the usb wallet with soap, do they become clean coins?

AtheistAKASaneBrain

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Quote from: onemorebtc on February 18, 2015, 08:11:33 AM

Quote from: v.mariette on February 18, 2015, 08:09:33 AM

Quote from: onemorebtc on February 18, 2015, 07:10:02 AM

if you use a mixer all of your coins will look tainted...
a mixer doesnt wash them: it just distributes the taint more equally

i dont think there is an alternative to monero of you want to be anon (transactions and balances are anon btw)

what is so special with monero?

no public ledger (but i dont want to advertise it here... please just search for their ann thread Wink

)

bitcoin is great but it wont ever be anon - imho even sidechains cant fix this

Black markets will all accept monero in the future, give it time.

Borisz

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Quote from: B.A.S. on February 18, 2015, 09:17:21 AM

I don't understand why tainted BTC would/should be a problem.

This article is a few years old now (and from the Daily Mail --near tabloid quality), but it illustrates my point. Dirty BTC should not deter anyone from spending it/accepting it. Every day fiat is used to buy numerous illegal things and then can be used to by toothpaste the next day. Why should this be a BTC user's problem or even a problem at all?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1241775/Every-British-bank-note-contaminated-cocaine-weeks-entering-circulation.html

I could see taint analysis as a great forensic technique with regards to criminal investigations. Imagine if someone invented software or a fast computing way to unravel the blockchain to uncover past transactions... Eventually all coins will most likely be linked to a real individual and will have a transaction history attached to a known entity (bank account for instance).

I agree with you.
If someone wanted completely traceable money that cannot be used for shady purposes, go for credit cards. As you said, people do bad things with cash, but it still exists.

B.A.S.

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I don't understand why tainted BTC would/should be a problem.

This article is a few years old now (and from the Daily Mail --near tabloid quality), but it illustrates my point. Dirty BTC should not deter anyone from spending it/accepting it. Every day fiat is used to buy numerous illegal things and then can be used to by toothpaste the next day. Why should this be a BTC user's problem or even a problem at all?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1241775/Every-British-bank-note-contaminated-cocaine-weeks-entering-circulation.html

I could see taint analysis as a great forensic technique with regards to criminal investigations. Imagine if someone invented software or a fast computing way to unravel the blockchain to uncover past transactions... Eventually all coins will most likely be linked to a real individual and will have a transaction history attached to a known entity (bank account for instance).

onemorebtc

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Quote from: v.mariette on February 18, 2015, 08:09:33 AM

Quote from: onemorebtc on February 18, 2015, 07:10:02 AM

if you use a mixer all of your coins will look tainted...
a mixer doesnt wash them: it just distributes the taint more equally

i dont think there is an alternative to monero of you want to be anon (transactions and balances are anon btw)

what is so special with monero?

no public ledger (but i dont want to advertise it here... please just search for their ann thread Wink

)

bitcoin is great but it wont ever be anon - imho even sidechains cant fix this

v.mariette

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Quote from: onemorebtc on February 18, 2015, 07:10:02 AM

if you use a mixer all of your coins will look tainted...
a mixer doesnt wash them: it just distributes the taint more equally

i dont think there is an alternative to monero of you want to be anon (transactions and balances are anon btw)

what is so special with monero?

onemorebtc

sr. member

Activity: 266

Merit: 250

if you use a mixer all of your coins will look tainted...
a mixer doesnt wash them: it just distributes the taint more equally

i dont think there is an alternative to monero of you want to be anon (transactions and balances are anon btw)

Melds

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Quote from: R2D221 on February 17, 2015, 08:42:38 AM

Yes, but your proposal will help filter exactly zero criminals in the long run, because everyone will be using mixing services before spending their stolen coins.

I believe this will likely be the case

Topic: Dirty coins (Read 5984 times)