Do we even need bitcoin mixers? | Bitcointalksearch.org

Kruw

member

Activity: 378

Merit: 93

Enable v2transport=1 and mempoolfullrbf=1

Quote from: fuguebtc on February 24, 2024, 05:39:02 AM

If everyone uses bitcoin to avoid taxes , what would the country be like without taxes?

It would be a free country.

Quote from: panganib999 on February 24, 2024, 07:05:45 PM

Quote from: Fundamentals Of on January 07, 2024, 09:44:58 PM

There are alternatives for people who prefer to keep their privacy intact. The use of Bitcoin mixers is not the only way for a user to stay private. Having said this I think we really don't need Bitcoin mixers. We need ways to provide us privacy but Bitcoin mixers don't have the monopoly of this kind of service. The example given in the OP also provides privacy. CoinJoin also provides privacy in a manner that is legally acceptable. During these times when mixers are perceived negatively, there remains other ways to achieve what one can achieve with mixers.

Between mixers and airgapping a perfectly usable device to act as you wallet, mixing your cryptocurrencies is definitely going to be the more appealing option.

How is mixing a more appealing option than coinjoining? Mixing sites take custody of your Bitcoins and are trusted with your transaction history, but coinjoins are completely non custodial and do not leak data to any trusted third parties.

8rch7

sr. member

Activity: 1344

Merit: 459

Quote from: The Cryptovator on February 24, 2024, 05:37:11 PM

I can understand, but let's be honest. Do we have the best place to trade crypto without providing your identification documents? There are a few decentralised exchanges, but they are not very popular. So most people have been using centralised exchanges, and funds have been traced. We can simply cut the transaction by doing a P2P trade. It's not necessary to depend on mixers alone. Exchange can trace only where you withdraw, but they don't know actually who owned the address. Just use multiple addresses and cut the transaction history.

Right now difficult to trade cryptocurrency without providing identification documents except with dapp exchange market such as Uniswap, Pancakeswap and many kinds of dapp exchange. However when using dapp exchange always needed CEX exchange for withdrawing cryptocurrency fund to fiat or cash money trough the bank, use third party but difficult to get which one trusted seller want to buy or cryptocurrency assets and has lower fees transaction such as selling trough P2P on CEX exchange market.

For market exchange easily to trace which one our assets come from, have regulation for all top exchange required identification documents and difficult to get trusted CEX exchange with much volume transaction without required KYC, just small exchange have loer volume transaction and limited amount for withdrawing in daily day.

Nrcewker

copper member

Activity: 2156

Merit: 536

Building my own Dreams!

The idea that you gave looks really interesting and easy, but we are forgetting about the conversion fees and the transaction fees. If someone wants his Bitcoins instantly, then definitely he will have to go through a long process, and has to speed up the transaction in order to get his coins. Moreover it’s also very difficult to find a trustworthy non-KYC exchange. As all the reputable exchanges ask for KYC now, hence we have to do again a lot of hardwork. We need to find other good alternatives according to me.

fuguebtc

hero member

Activity: 1750

Merit: 520

Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform

Quote from: examplens on February 24, 2024, 05:49:48 AM

Quote from: fuguebtc on February 24, 2024, 05:39:02 AM

In addition, if owning a large amount of assets is very dangerous for us . So, people with assets up to tens of millions of dollars, billions of dollars still trade on those centralized exchanges. Are they in danger and are they unaware of those dangers? I mean it could still happen but it wouldn't be as severe as you describe.

Whoever keeps millions on a centralized exchange is an idiot, period.

I'm not talking about whether they store their bitcoins on centralized exchanges or not . What I just want to say is that there are many sharks with millions of dollars still using centralized exchanges as a place for trading and liquidity because we all know that only centralized exchanges provide such massive liquidity to the market. And when we use centralized exchanges, it doesn't always put us in danger just because some people know we own bitcoin . I understand that we will definitely lose privacy when using centralized exchanges but there will be no danger like you are mentioning .

Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating or encouraging people to use centralized exchanges because it is everyone's choice but there is not too much danger when using them properly.

panganib999

hero member

Activity: 1736

Merit: 589

Quote from: Fundamentals Of on January 07, 2024, 09:44:58 PM

There are alternatives for people who prefer to keep their privacy intact. The use of Bitcoin mixers is not the only way for a user to stay private. Having said this I think we really don't need Bitcoin mixers. We need ways to provide us privacy but Bitcoin mixers don't have the monopoly of this kind of service. The example given in the OP also provides privacy. CoinJoin also provides privacy in a manner that is legally acceptable. During these times when mixers are perceived negatively, there remains other ways to achieve what one can achieve with mixers.

Between mixers and airgapping a perfectly usable device to act as you wallet, mixing your cryptocurrencies is definitely going to be the more appealing option.

You have to consider the fact that the reason why mixing is so prevalent even after getting some leering eyes from the international global scene, is because it's the most convenient way out there to secure your cryptocurrencies, and to protect your identity. Sure, converting your bitcoins/crypto to monero's an equally appealing ordeal but the concept is not explored to its fullest capacity just yet, forcing people into instead following what the norm is, which is mixing. Airgapping and other forms of cryptocurrency anonymity tactics are cumbersome as well in the face of completely obscuring your footsteps with the single press of a button. Which is why at the end of the day, mixing will remain existent even though we don't technically need them anymore.

The Cryptovator

legendary

Activity: 2240

Merit: 2174

Need PR/CMC & CG? TG @The_Cryptovator

Quote from: examplens on February 23, 2024, 04:10:52 PM

Quote from: The Cryptovator on February 23, 2024, 03:48:49 PM

To be honest, I don't see reasons for me to mix my Bitcoin. That doesn't mean I don't care about my privacy. Of course, I am concerned about my privacy, but how will others know about my holdings? Let's say I withdraw from Binance to my BTC address. So they know who owns this bitcoin. What makes that risky for me?

just a few examples
Your government can ask for insight in order to collect taxes.
Some insiders can sell your information to bad people from your environment, so if you have a significant amount, it can create a lot of inconvenience in life. If you were to sell the house and get cash, you certainly wouldn't feel safe if everyone around you knew you had xx amount in your hands.

I can understand, but let's be honest. Do we have the best place to trade crypto without providing your identification documents? There are a few decentralised exchanges, but they are not very popular. So most people have been using centralised exchanges, and funds have been traced. We can simply cut the transaction by doing a P2P trade. It's not necessary to depend on mixers alone. Exchange can trace only where you withdraw, but they don't know actually who owned the address. Just use multiple addresses and cut the transaction history.

Upgrade00

legendary

Activity: 2030

Merit: 2174

Professional Community manager

Quote from: dkbit98 on February 24, 2024, 04:44:07 PM

Quote from: examplens on February 24, 2024, 05:49:48 AM

Whoever keeps millions on a centralized exchange is an idiot, period.

All big traders are holding coins on centralized exchanges, and if you didn't notice Coinbase exchange is custodian for most Bitcoin ETF's so far Tongue

It has been proven time and again that keeping significant amounts of money on centralized exchanges is not safe, no matter how reputable that exchange is. Trading has always been the most speculative topic in this regards cause decentralized platforms don't offer the liquidity required and traders wisely cannot keep withdrawing and then depositing back when they want to trade.

So, I can understand why one would want to keep funds there, but would still advice against it.

nakamura12

hero member

Activity: 2268

Merit: 669

Bitcoin Casino Est. 2013

For some people, they do need bitcoin mixers to have a privacy when transferring funds but as you can see that many bitcoin mixers are taken down by the FBI because using bitcoin mixers is already an act of money laundering if you talk about the law even though your aim of using it is to have a privacy in the first place. Anyway, about the situation where you exchange your btc to xmr and then xmr to btc is not applicable in my opinion for small amount of funds since you have to pay a fee everytime you exchange a crypto in an exchange. I have tried it myself and the value I got at the end is not the same value as I have it before and there's also the spread of buy and sell price.

Quote from: NeuroticFish on February 24, 2024, 05:10:41 PM

Quote from: dkbit98 on February 24, 2024, 04:44:07 PM

I think we need to have as much tools as possible to achieve better privacy with bitcoin transactions.

Completely agreed.

I second the motion.

NeuroticFish

legendary

Activity: 3668

Merit: 6382

Looking for campaign manager? Contact icopress!

Quote from: dkbit98 on February 24, 2024, 04:44:07 PM

I think we need to have as much tools as possible to achieve better privacy with bitcoin transactions.

Completely agreed.

Quote from: dkbit98 on February 24, 2024, 04:44:07 PM

Quote from: examplens on February 24, 2024, 05:49:48 AM

Whoever keeps millions on a centralized exchange is an idiot, period.

All big traders are holding coins on centralized exchanges, and if you didn't notice Coinbase exchange is custodian for most Bitcoin ETF's so far Tongue

https://blockworks.co/bitcoin-etf

Coinbase is probably acting already like a bank. And businesses keep billions at banks. I hope that Coinbase are not idiots and have those coins in cold storage and also insured.

Of course, examplens is also 99% correct. Most exchanges cannot be trusted (I would not trust Coinbase either, but that's me). For us, here on Bitcointalk, self custody is the best option. For the big companies there's no difference they keep their wealth in a bank or at Coinbase.

dkbit98

legendary

Activity: 2212

Merit: 7064

Cashback 15%

I think we need to have as much tools as possible to achieve better privacy with bitcoin transactions.
Using something decentralized would be ideal, but most centralized exchanges already acted similar like mixers for years.
People who use centralized exchanges, don't use mixers, say they dont have anything to hide, and say they care about privacy are nothing more than hypocrites. Tongue

Quote from: examplens on February 24, 2024, 05:49:48 AM

Whoever keeps millions on a centralized exchange is an idiot, period.

All big traders are holding coins on centralized exchanges, and if you didn't notice Coinbase exchange is custodian for most Bitcoin ETF's so far Tongue

https://blockworks.co/bitcoin-etf

FinneysTrueVision

sr. member

Activity: 1624

Merit: 336

Top Crypto Casino

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on February 24, 2024, 01:25:05 PM

Quote from: FinneysTrueVision on February 24, 2024, 01:30:55 AM

DeFi exchanges, as you call them, don’t take custody of user’s funds

Can you prove it? From my experience with DeFi, the software is closed-source. You can export private keys and the like, but you can't know with certainty if another entity holds your keys as well. And in my opinion, if another entity holds my keys, it isn't self-custodial, regardless of what I do.

Uniswap which is the biggest DEX, and the one which most other DEXs base their code on has been open source from the beginning. Starting from V3, their code was released under a business source license which meant it can be reviewed but not copied for commercial use until after 2 years when it becomes open source.

Nobody holds the keys to your wallet but you do have to give permission for smart contracts to pull a specified amount of funds from your wallet. By default the limit is usually set to allow an infinite amount of funds that can be used by a specific contract. If the contract is immutable and developers renounced ownership, which can be done by setting the owner to a burn address, then there is very minimal risk of getting rugpulled.

BlackHatCoiner

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 7340

Farewell, Leo

Quote from: FinneysTrueVision on February 24, 2024, 01:30:55 AM

DeFi exchanges, as you call them, don’t take custody of user’s funds

Can you prove it? From my experience with DeFi, the software is closed-source. You can export private keys and the like, but you can't know with certainty if another entity holds your keys as well. And in my opinion, if another entity holds my keys, it isn't self-custodial, regardless of what I do.

Quote from: kryptqnick on February 24, 2024, 12:54:44 PM

Mixers are getting outlawed, and it's not surprising because what they do is basically money laundering (in a sense that the procedure is literally built to hide the origins of money, both legit and not legit money). If someone is that much into privacy that doesn't care for Bitcoin's pseudonymity, then like others said, there are private coins for that.

Right, as if you don't mix your coins with other people's coins in private coins, or as if private coins aren't "literally built" to hide the origins of money (both "legit" and "not legit")! Cheesy

kryptqnick

legendary

Activity: 3094

Merit: 1385

Join the world-leading crypto sportsbook NOW!

Mixers are getting outlawed, and it's not surprising because what they do is basically money laundering (in a sense that the procedure is literally built to hide the origins of money, both legit and not legit money). If someone is that much into privacy that doesn't care for Bitcoin's pseudonymity, then like others said, there are private coins for that. To me, transparency is a value, and while I believe in the value of privacy, it's not extremely important to me, so I've never felt like I needed to use mixers for anything.

swogerino

legendary

Activity: 3136

Merit: 1233

Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform

I would go a really simple way for exchanging not huge amounts or even huge amounts that have no urgency and can be taken out little by little.This can be done easily by sending money to a casino wallet,play there for fun some money and then withdraw to a new wallet,this way it is almost impossible to trace your Bitcoins or any other currency supported by the casino platform.Of course I am talking here about people with an emphasize on privacy and no criminals which they want all money as soon as they can,for them without mixers it is quite difficult.

examplens

legendary

Activity: 3248

Merit: 3098

Quote from: fuguebtc on February 24, 2024, 05:39:02 AM

What do you mean we are using bitcoin to avoid taxes? I think we need to have privacy even from the government because maybe one day the government will confiscate our property without any reason . But I don't think using bitcoin is to avoid taxes and it's not a good move. If everyone uses bitcoin to avoid taxes , what would the country be like without taxes?

If you pay more attention, you will see that I gave an example of why someone would use a mixer.
I apologize for not stating that it is not financial advice.

Quote from: fuguebtc on February 24, 2024, 05:39:02 AM

In addition, if owning a large amount of assets is very dangerous for us . So, people with assets up to tens of millions of dollars, billions of dollars still trade on those centralized exchanges. Are they in danger and are they unaware of those dangers? I mean it could still happen but it wouldn't be as severe as you describe.

Whoever keeps millions on a centralized exchange is an idiot, period.

fuguebtc

hero member

Activity: 1750

Merit: 520

Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform

Quote from: examplens on February 23, 2024, 04:10:52 PM

Quote from: The Cryptovator on February 23, 2024, 03:48:49 PM

To be honest, I don't see reasons for me to mix my Bitcoin. That doesn't mean I don't care about my privacy. Of course, I am concerned about my privacy, but how will others know about my holdings? Let's say I withdraw from Binance to my BTC address. So they know who owns this bitcoin. What makes that risky for me?

just a few examples
Your government can ask for insight in order to collect taxes.
Some insiders can sell your information to bad people from your environment, so if you have a significant amount, it can create a lot of inconvenience in life. If you were to sell the house and get cash, you certainly wouldn't feel safe if everyone around you knew you had xx amount in your hands.

What do you mean we are using bitcoin to avoid taxes? I think we need to have privacy even from the government because maybe one day the government will confiscate our property without any reason . But I don't think using bitcoin is to avoid taxes and it's not a good move. If everyone uses bitcoin to avoid taxes , what would the country be like without taxes?

In addition, if owning a large amount of assets is very dangerous for us . So, people with assets up to tens of millions of dollars, billions of dollars still trade on those centralized exchanges. Are they in danger and are they unaware of those dangers? I mean it could still happen but it wouldn't be as severe as you describe.

FinneysTrueVision

sr. member

Activity: 1624

Merit: 336

Top Crypto Casino

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on January 09, 2024, 06:20:04 AM

Quote from: SamReomo on January 08, 2024, 05:22:32 PM

I think one of those rug-pull decentralized exchanges is Swaprum’s that did a rug-pull exist and stole funds of the users.

That was a DeFi exchange, not a decentralized. No truly decentralized exchange offers farming rewards, staking pools, referral programs and a shit-token called SARP. And as already said, if an exchange is decentralized, it does not take custody.

DeFi exchanges, as you call them, don’t take custody of user’s funds but you do have to trust that there isn’t any backdoors or undiscovered bugs in their smart contracts. They might have ponzi-like aspects to them but they are still decentralized.

Quote from: Kruw on February 24, 2024, 12:38:20 AM

100% true. People should have learned their lesson about "mixing sites" a long time ago. Coinjoins keep your funds and data safe, so there's absolutely no excuse for anyone to use/promote/operate a "mixing site".

There was this story from last week where a user claims to have lost 15 BTC on Unijoin. He was given a letter of guarantee with a fake signature, that he didn’t bother to verify like most users of mixers, which makes it nearly impossible to prove he was even scammed.
https://www.altcoinstalks.com/index.php?topic=317783.0

All the people with mixer advertisements in their signatures are making excuses and trying to gaslight the user by saying they weren’t actually scammed. Even if the user is lying for whatever reason, this is still an inherent vulnerability present in any custodial mixing service. No amount of signature payments is enough to make this danger go away.

Kruw

member

Activity: 378

Merit: 93

Enable v2transport=1 and mempoolfullrbf=1

Quote from: isaah23 on February 23, 2024, 12:59:41 PM

No, we don't need.
People who trust mixers, how do you know there is no logging your ip and input/output addresses on backend?
You trust message "Anonymous/Privacy" on their website?
If even "the most private and anonymous" Proton mail working with police...

100% true. People should have learned their lesson about "mixing sites" a long time ago. Coinjoins keep your funds and data safe, so there's absolutely no excuse for anyone to use/promote/operate a "mixing site".

examplens

legendary

Activity: 3248

Merit: 3098

Quote from: The Cryptovator on February 23, 2024, 03:48:49 PM

To be honest, I don't see reasons for me to mix my Bitcoin. That doesn't mean I don't care about my privacy. Of course, I am concerned about my privacy, but how will others know about my holdings? Let's say I withdraw from Binance to my BTC address. So they know who owns this bitcoin. What makes that risky for me?

just a few examples
Your government can ask for insight in order to collect taxes.
Some insiders can sell your information to bad people from your environment, so if you have a significant amount, it can create a lot of inconvenience in life. If you were to sell the house and get cash, you certainly wouldn't feel safe if everyone around you knew you had xx amount in your hands.

coolcoinz

legendary

Activity: 2618

Merit: 1103

I've never used a mixer, but... the fact that we may not need it doesn't change that we should be able to use it. Let's say you find something unimportant and don't use it. Many people feel safe, don't own guns and feel like it's a good idea to restrict others from owning guns. Do you support this? I sure don't.

Living in a society demands us to set up a list of rules and things that are limited or forbidden, but this should be limited to things that are dangerous. For instance, we don't want people to have radioactive materials at home because that could make us, neighbors, sick. Why should I care if someone uses a mixer? It's his free choice if he wants to.

Topic: Do we even need bitcoin mixers? (Read 671 times)