Do we even need bitcoin mixers? | Bitcointalksearch.org

Russlenat

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Quote from: Kruw on October 17, 2024, 11:19:52 PM

Quote from: Russlenat on October 17, 2024, 11:17:46 PM

You can’t really compare banks to mixers because they’re two totally different platforms. Banks are best described as “completely transparent” since they own the system, can monitor transactions, and know the people behind them due to KYC requirements.

The "mixing site" also owns the system, can also monitor transactions, and can also know the people behind them due to KYC requirements. Like I said, there's absolutely no difference between "mixing sites" and the traditional banking system.

If a mixing site requires KYC, then it’s definitely not the type most people are using. I know governments are working hard to make sure they can trace transactions on mixing sites, and if those sites don’t comply, they’ll ban them and seize the funds. Just to clarify my point in the argument - I wasn’t talking about mixing sites with "KYC" either.

Kruw

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Quote from: Russlenat on October 17, 2024, 11:17:46 PM

You can’t really compare banks to mixers because they’re two totally different platforms. Banks are best described as “completely transparent” since they own the system, can monitor transactions, and know the people behind them due to KYC requirements.

The "mixing site" also owns the system, can also monitor transactions, and can also know the people behind them due to KYC requirements. Like I said, there's absolutely no difference between "mixing sites" and the traditional banking system.

Russlenat

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Quote from: Kruw on October 17, 2024, 10:55:31 PM

Quote from: Russlenat on October 17, 2024, 10:09:12 AM

Mixers don’t actually promise full anonymity because that’s just not realistic. A better way to describe it is "hard to trace."

No, a better way to describe it is "completely transparent". There's absolutely no privacy offered by "mixing sites" whatsoever, just like the traditional banking system.

You can’t really compare banks to mixers because they’re two totally different platforms. Banks are best described as “completely transparent” since they own the system, can monitor transactions, and know the people behind them due to KYC requirements. Mixers, on the other hand, don’t need KYC and actually aim to boost privacy, which is the opposite of the transparency you're talking about. That said, mixers don’t make transactions or users completely anonymous; it’s just harder to trace, but not impossible.

Kruw

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Quote from: Russlenat on October 17, 2024, 10:09:12 AM

Mixers don’t actually promise full anonymity because that’s just not realistic. A better way to describe it is "hard to trace."

No, a better way to describe it is "completely transparent". There's absolutely no privacy offered by "mixing sites" whatsoever, just like the traditional banking system.

Learn Bitcoin

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Quote from: fruktik on October 17, 2024, 12:05:42 AM

Mixers make it much easier to obfuscate digital tracks so that a person's identity or personal data cannot be determined. In my opinion, this is a good tool that benefits those who want to remain anonymous when sending money. Who needs this? For example, opposition bloggers who have fallen out of favor with the government, as well as those who donate to such people.

True. But there are some alternatives as well. Since there are many instant exchangers, people can use them to send their Bitcoin to receive Monero or Dash, which are also kinds of privacy coins. If someone wants to stick with Bitcoin only, they can utilize the mixers. But the problem is, there are a lot of unnamed mixers that pop up every few days and then exit scams. I would suggest Bitlist to people wanting to know more about available mixers operating their business right now. By using Bitlist, a person can learn about the platform before using the mixer. Bitlist listed that mixer means those were tested.

MeGold666

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Quote from: Z_MBFM on October 17, 2024, 07:37:18 AM

Since Bitcoin is a decentralized coin, it is not possible to track one's personal information through the Bitcoin wallet when one makes a Bitcoin transaction.

All transactions made on Bitcoin are visible to the whole world, and anyone can trace them. It's just a matter of time until they link you through growing metadata that is associated with each Bitcoin address, and soon the government will probably blacklist all coins that are not coming from KYC exchanges.

These tainted coins are already the source of many problems, including people being banned from exchanges, being accused of crimes committed by previous coin owners, funds being frozen, etc.

Decentralization helps against takeover of coins by government but if they blacklist your wallet and you move the funds, you'll be in trouble anyway.
This blacklists could be forced at mining level in near future.

That's one of the reasons I stay away from Bitcoin, I don't want government to know how much I have - It's not their business and they will never know how much I have.
Secondly, I pay taxes from when I sell crypto to FIAT but I don't want to pay taxes from crypto I own and this is the direction we are going.

Russlenat

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Quote from: Z_MBFM on October 17, 2024, 07:37:18 AM

However if someone wants more security then they can use Mixer which is a good way to keep themselves completely anonymous.

Mixers don’t actually promise full anonymity because that’s just not realistic. A better way to describe it is "hard to trace." With all the advanced blockchain analysis tools out there now, used by different firms to trace transactions, anything can be tracked eventually. After using a mixer, the funds will probably go into a user's wallet, exchange, or even a casino with KYC. If that wallet is linked to your identity, well, game over, you’ve been traced.

Z_MBFM

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Quote from: coinerer on January 07, 2024, 09:13:25 PM

Mixing sites have been promoted on this forum for a long time but I have never used them. I know how they work but I haven't needed to use them. And now mixing platforms have been banned by Theymos due to many illegal activities being done in them. So I'm not encouraged to use the mixer platform. these platforms are useful for those who want to make large transactions secretly but not important for users like me.

Since Bitcoin is a decentralized coin, it is not possible to track one's personal information through the Bitcoin wallet when one makes a Bitcoin transaction. However if someone wants more security then they can use Mixer which is a good way to keep themselves completely anonymous. However, there is a possibility of huge amounts of money being laundered through bitcoin mixer and this is why it has been declared illegal in many places and banned from this forum. But mixers are still running their business so anyone can use it if they want.

Kruw

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Quote from: examplens on October 17, 2024, 04:51:31 AM

The scam comes from people with bad intentions, not from service, how they will do it is a completely different matter.

No, the scam is the "service" itself: There is no privacy offered to users of "mixing sites", the operator has complete visibility into the source and destination of all transactions, just like the traditional banking system.

Quote from: examplens on October 17, 2024, 04:51:31 AM

Wasn't there a case of scam by the Wasabi coordinator a few months ago?

A coordinator abused a bug to bypass the customizable fee limit that was added in a new release in order to charge the maximum allowed fee of 1%. So it was 1% of a scam I guess.

Quote from: examplens on October 17, 2024, 04:51:31 AM

Also, you are taking the administrator's statement from 5 years ago, various things happened in the meantime. So, for example, Wasabi no longer has the Coinjoin function, it also does an AML check, which can no longer be classified in the context of what the admin wrote.

Wasabi still has the coinjoin function and doesn't do an AML check.

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Quote from: Kruw on October 16, 2024, 08:14:59 PM

The alternative is coinjoining. Coinjoin transactions are strictly superior to "mixing sites" since you can't get scammed out of your funds, and no third parties are trusted not to leak your privacy. The forum admin strongly recommends coinjoining over "mixing sites":

The scam comes from people with bad intentions, not from service, how they will do it is a completely different matter.
Wasn't there a case of scam by the Wasabi coordinator a few months ago?

Also, you are taking the administrator's statement from 5 years ago, various things happened in the meantime. So, for example, Wasabi no longer has the Coinjoin function, it also does an AML check, which can no longer be classified in the context of what the admin wrote.

NotATether

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Quote from: fikrett on October 17, 2024, 01:26:38 AM

If it's okay for you, could you explain it a bit further? Do you mean the transaction would be flagged as such afterward?

Although it is very difficult, almost impossible in some cases, to deduce who is sending a transaction to who in a coinjoin transaction, CoinJoins are so big and clustered that they are easy for anybody to see that there is a coinjoin happening on a block explorer.

These blockchain analysis companies see a list of successive coinjoin transactions done from several addresses, and usually incorrectly deduce that since CoinJoin services (or mixers) made these transactions, they must be inherently bad. Thus explaining the high risk score you always see when you check an address that's received funds from Wasabi/Samourai/mixers.

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Quote from: NotATether on October 17, 2024, 12:32:24 AM

Quote from: Kruw on October 16, 2024, 08:14:59 PM

The alternative is coinjoining. Coinjoin transactions are strictly superior to "mixing sites" since you can't get scammed out of your funds, and no third parties are trusted not to leak your privacy. The forum admin strongly recommends coinjoining over "mixing sites":

Both are flagged under chain analysis and forwarded for enhanced documentation though, in almost all cases.

You can't use most coinjoins and mixers and expect to be able to send the output to an exchange.

If it's okay for you, could you explain it a bit further? Do you mean the transaction would be flagged as such afterward?

NotATether

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Quote from: Kruw on October 16, 2024, 08:14:59 PM

The alternative is coinjoining. Coinjoin transactions are strictly superior to "mixing sites" since you can't get scammed out of your funds, and no third parties are trusted not to leak your privacy. The forum admin strongly recommends coinjoining over "mixing sites":

Both are flagged under chain analysis and forwarded for enhanced documentation though, in almost all cases.

You can't use most coinjoins and mixers and expect to be able to send the output to an exchange.

fruktik

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Quote from: Learn Bitcoin on September 06, 2024, 05:08:15 AM

You are the same guy who created a thread two years ago asking which method you should pick so the government cannot track you and you don't want to go to the jail. Why didn't you choose those non-KYC exchanges to clean your Bitcoin or send your funds to whoever you want? You yourself decided to use mixers and asked for help. You probably did not know about those non-exchanges, or the process is too long. Yeah, if someone can use privacy coins like Monero or Dash on exchanges and do it multiple times, you don't need mixers. But the Mixers have a good fanbase. We have Telegram does not mean whatsapp is useless.

Mixers make it much easier to obfuscate digital tracks so that a person's identity or personal data cannot be determined. In my opinion, this is a good tool that benefits those who want to remain anonymous when sending money. Who needs this? For example, opposition bloggers who have fallen out of favor with the government, as well as those who donate to such people.

ml9999

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Bitcoin mixers are still useful, as exchanges can still flag transactions and can still monitor things like this, even when using XMR. For example, if you change $1,000 of BTC to XMR, and then a bit later you change $1,000 XMR to BTC, those transactions could be linked, especially if you did this repeatedly. Also, most reputable exchanges are KYC in order to comply with the law. That's not to say all non-KYC exchanges are bad, just that mainstream/KYC law-abiding ones are more likely to be trustworthy.

Kruw

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Quote from: examplens on September 04, 2024, 05:14:42 AM

What is the alternative?
Any service at some point when it gathers enough users can turn into a scam. What is the suggestion to avoid this scenario?
we assume that p2p cannot be a solution for all cases.

The alternative is coinjoining. Coinjoin transactions are strictly superior to "mixing sites" since you can't get scammed out of your funds, and no third parties are trusted not to leak your privacy. The forum admin strongly recommends coinjoining over "mixing sites":

Quote from: theymos on May 29, 2019, 10:09:09 PM

Congratulations to the Wasabi and JoinMarket developers! JoinMarket pioneered a lot of CoinJoin science (and BTW, belcher wrote an excellent & comprehensive wiki article on privacy), while Wasabi is the first wallet that implements CoinJoin in both a highly-usable and sound way. As both a signer and a donor to the CoinJoin bounty fund, I'm thrilled that these two pieces of software exist!

For everyone looking to improve their privacy, I highly recommend checking out Wasabi, especially over centralized "mixers".

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Quote from: ndutndut on September 07, 2024, 12:05:29 PM

Quote from: btc78 on January 08, 2024, 07:32:01 AM

I personally do not feel the need for mixers or any method of transactions that keeps privacy as I have no particular use for them at least as of now

But if i were to guess, i would say that converting bitcoin to other cryptocurrencies is much tasking than just using a mixer not to mention the price volatility that could affect the amount of bitcoin you are sending or receiving

There is no denying that one of the main benefits of using a Mixer is maintaining better privacy. because with mixer transactions, it will be much harder to trace the original source or destination of funds, so if someone wants to do something bad with our assets, it will be harder to track our financial activities. This can also be very useful for those who are concerned about their financial privacy or who live in countries with strict financial regulations.

But on the other hand, Mixer is also not a good idea and so far I also don't need Mixer because I don't have many bitcoins. The purpose of Mixer is often misused which eventually results in Mixer being banned in several countries, even on this forum, because Mixer is widely used to clean stolen Bitcoins, there are also Mixers that are fraudulent. Mixer is indeed good for maintaining privacy, especially if you have a lot of bitcoins, but so far, Mixer has been widely used for criminal purposes.

Everything has its pros and cons, and it all depends on how each person uses it.

As I see it, there are a lot of mixed opinions about mixers and I believe everyone is right because they are judging the issue from their own perspective and circumstances, rather than putting themselves in someone else's shoes.

But I don't think a complete ban on mixers is the right decision because, as you said, it also has benefits that help us increase privacy. I think the government banned it because they have difficulty controlling and managing us, they don't want us to be free, not because it is being widely used for criminal purposes as they say. If one day they ban bitcoin and give the reason that bitcoin is widely used for criminal purposes and a lot of criminals are using it. Do you agree with their decision?

Was Bitcoin created for criminal use? No, it was never created for criminal use, and neither were mixers. What I see is that the government has completely failed to prevent and control crime, and they are just looking for ways to blame others to cover up their failure. Have crime rates decreased since bitcoin mixers were banned?

ABCbits

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Quote from: Z-tight on September 06, 2024, 07:46:00 AM

Quote from: Easteregg69 on September 06, 2024, 07:20:34 AM

What about Monero. I tested it.

And I can't remember the outcome.

What about Monero? And what do you mean by you tested it and cannot remember the outcome. You can surely convert your BTC to Monero in a p2p exchange, move it around and send it back into a different p2p exchange, then convert it into BTC and send it in bits to different BTC addresses. It is a good method of privacy when done correctly. I can see the feedback on your profile, so i think you should start making your posts make meaning.

While it's possible, it's weird there aren't many post which mention the cost. P2P exchange may offer bad exchange rate due to low volume. There's also fee when using P2P and creating on-chain TX which could be costly on specific condition.

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Quote from: supporterofpeace on January 07, 2024, 02:26:11 PM

Now, that the mixers are banned from this forum, I wonder, why do we even need BTC mixers.
A non-KYC exchange solves the mixer problem where Bitcoin and Monero are available too.

Mixers are banned quite alright because of some reasons which may reduce the concentration of the government over the forum maybe in getting it down or so, but i will say this that only mixers are banned, but privacy with bitcoin still remains, we can go for it, have it and use our privacy the way we want, but not on this forum via mixers.

I think its more better if we lessen the way we often talked about mixers and their ban on the forum, so we can continue in life and on regular bitcoin discussions, because this decision has nothing to deny us of what we want bitcoin to do in our finical economy.

m2017

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Quote from: ndutndut on September 07, 2024, 12:05:29 PM

There is no denying that one of the main benefits of using a Mixer is maintaining better privacy. because with mixer transactions, it will be much harder to trace the original source or destination of funds, so if someone wants to do something bad with our assets, it will be harder to track our financial activities. This can also be very useful for those who are concerned about their financial privacy or who live in countries with strict financial regulations.

But on the other hand, Mixer is also not a good idea and so far I also don't need Mixer because I don't have many bitcoins. The purpose of Mixer is often misused which eventually results in Mixer being banned in several countries, even on this forum, because Mixer is widely used to clean stolen Bitcoins, there are also Mixers that are fraudulent. Mixer is indeed good for maintaining privacy, especially if you have a lot of bitcoins, but so far, Mixer has been widely used for criminal purposes.

The ban on mixers was caused by the desire of some superpowers to "look into your pockets" and know what you spend the contents of your wallet on. This knowledge will allow you to receive taxes from each future transaction.

For me, the role of mixers as a means of cleaning up stolen bitcoin seems exaggerated and a made-up "legend", under the pretext of which it is possible to ban. Ban what interferes with financial regulation.

Fraudulent mixers require a completely different discussion. Any activity aimed at fraud is unacceptable. The presence of fraudulent mixers is not a reason to ban "private" mixers.

Confidentiality is necessary with any number of bitcoin.

The statement that mixers were widely used for criminal purposes is practically no different from statements that bitcoin is widely used by criminals. If you want to label anything as "negative", then you just need to say that it is used for criminal purposes.

Topic: Do we even need bitcoin mixers? (Read 1399 times)