Do we even need bitcoin mixers? - page 5.

BlackHatCoiner

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Quote from: amishmanish on January 08, 2024, 09:11:20 AM

At one point, mixers were celebrated as the harbingers of liberty and privacy on the forum.

At that point, we didn't have tested, decentralized privacy tools in our disposal. Using a mixer was the easiest and sort of most reputable manner to receive fungible coins. It no longer is. Decentralized tools like Bisq, Monero, or self-custodial coinjoin software like whirlpool, are developed and used every day.

Quote from: amishmanish on January 08, 2024, 09:11:20 AM

The origins need to be obfuscated so if ill-gotten/ hacked BTC is to be cashed out, you eventually need to go for a CEX which will probably need KYC.

If you really need to go through a CEX, you can still retain your privacy without buying taint. Just convert them to XMR (via Bisq) and sell the XMR.

amishmanish

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It is funny how times change. At one point, mixers were celebrated as the harbingers of liberty and privacy on the forum. Yet, the way that they started to be used to obfuscate the origin of a Bitcoin has led that to change completely. The origins need to be obfuscated so if ill-gotten/ hacked BTC is to be cashed out, you eventually need to go for a CEX which will probably need KYC.

With the ban, i suppose there is little to support that cause anymore.

Mixers would have been a good idea in a world where you only used it to hide your tracks for the sake of privacy. Yet, i think few people do it to keep it that way. On top of that, if one really wants to maintain anonymity, it can still be done if you do P2P transactions/ trading only.

As far as the question that whether we need bitcoin mixers, i think those who use them will continue to use them. Its just sensible for the forum to stop association with them because of the nuisance the criminals create with them.

Z-tight

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Quote from: Text on January 08, 2024, 08:08:01 AM

This is the only alternative I can see for now, but nowadays, it's rare to find a non-KYC exchange. The fully decentralized ones are becoming scarce.

I know decentralization is now like a buzzword and there are many exchanges that portray themselves as being decentralized, but they actually are not, but then you still have enough options if you are looking for p2p exchanges, you can find them here:
https://kycnot.me/?type=exchange

Quote from: moneystery on January 08, 2024, 07:56:45 AM

but the question is, if the transaction is from a clean thing, why is there any need to be afraid? unless the transaction is so dirty that it needs to be covered. so my conclusion is that we don't really need these mixers services, only those who want privacy to cover their transactions need this.

People need privacy for many reasons, it is ridiculous to question why people want privacy. Dirty or clean coins is nothing but an attack on the fungibility of BTC, and that is why the government and centralized services label BTC in that way, all BTC's are the same. Needless to say that mixers and privacy tools are very important in the BTC network, and you must not have something to hide before you use them.

Solosanz

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Quote from: supporterofpeace on January 07, 2024, 02:26:11 PM

As I see it, there are non-KYC services where you can change BTC to XMR or XMR to BTC.
According to my research, e.g. changenow.io seems a KYC exchange, but they don't ask your documents, only in case of suspicious transactions. Or do you know surely non-KYC echanges with BTC <-> XMR change possibility?

Decentralized exchange: Bisq
Instant swap: exch.cx

You need to read the terms of service too, some exchange even though not asking KYC but they're combating against illegal funds, but if it just for protecting privacy, it's fine.

BlackHatCoiner

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Quote from: supporterofpeace on January 07, 2024, 07:07:52 PM

I asked that why do we need bitcoin mixers, if there is Monero. We can change BTC to XMR and vica versa on no-KYC exchanges, and make an XMR to XMR transaction between the changes.

From my experience, when using a mixer, just as with coinjoining, you want from the observers to know you're mixing. Swapping BTC for XMR and XMR for BTC obviously provides better levels of privacy if used properly, but the outputs do not look as if they're private (from a blockchain perspective).

The next level of a fungible currency is for the coins to look the same, not only from the users to treat it likewise. For example, in whirlpool you cannot distinguish which coins comes from which user. Or, you can simply swap BTC for XMR and just stay there, which is completely fungible for obvious reasons.

NotATether

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bitcoincleanup.com / bitmixlist.org

The amount of ignorance in this thread is despicable. Did you think only signature campaign users use mixers?

If you want an accurate description of why you (the community) would need a mixer, you should read https://bitmixlist.org. And before you hit the Report button, yes I am allowed to post my resource on Bitcointalk.

The relevant section:

Quote from: https://bitmixlist.org

Why Bitcoin Mixers Are Necessary

It’s Much Easier To Create A Website Than A Wallet
Firstly, when I say wallet, I mean wallet software. Wasabi and Samourai in their current form, used up a lot of R&D before their developers made them. Developers have put years of research into these wallets so they can have the best and latest privacy features. From 2015 up to now, there have only been three bitcoin wallets with CoinJoin. Compare that with about ten times as many bitcoin mixers during that timeline. Additional mixers and CoinJoin wallets ensure decentralization of privacy.

Exchanges Might Block Coordinator Deposits
Remember how I said there are only three coinjoin wallets? That makes it easy for exchanges such as Binance to block their destination addresses. This is despite the fact that they are not bitcoin mixers and are just privacy technologies. The rate of the number of mixers appearing will overwhelm some exchanges, who won’t have time to identify their addresses as a result. I know some people who sent mixed coins to an exchange without any issue. But obviously not all mixers are treated equally, so do your research.

Countries Could Censor Coordinators
If you live in a censorship-heavy country, chances are that all of the CoinJoin wallets are blocked by domain and IP addresses. Normally in this case, you would download Tor Browser. But if their website is not accessible too, then you’ll need to look for a bitcoin mixer that is available.

Ease Of Use
This is not a strong reason since CoinJoins are just as easy to use in Wasabi and Samourai wallets. However, there’s no software you have to install in order to use a mixer. This means you can send the mixed coins to any wallet, while saving on transaction fees needed to sweep your coins otherwise.

Other Reasons Why You Might Use A Bitcoin Mixer
But sometimes, you need to mix some bitcoin quickly, maybe you don’t trust the person who gave you the coins. Maybe you are taking a stand against “blockchain taint”. Or maybe you are an activist or some other kind of person who police unfairly go after. Or perhaps you are just an ordinary person who is not savvy in bitcoin. All in all, if you find the wallet interfaces too clunky,

Here is a very good thread from 2014 which explains why people should use mixers, and look one up on a bitcoin mixer list to protect themselves. This is especially true for people who keep their coins on an exchange. By the way, recent events must have shown you that’s not a safe place to keep them in the first place.

The TL;DR of this TL;DR is that mixers help keep the privacy solutions available decentralized. Would you like for all mixers to close, so that the feds can start criminalizing CoinJoin wallets and Monero instead?

Text

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This is the only alternative I can see for now, but nowadays, it's rare to find a non-KYC exchange. The fully decentralized ones are becoming scarce. DEX tends to be complex and not very user-friendly, which is why some still prefer CEX. I heard that Binance is planning to stop supporting Monero. As for ChangeNow, it appears to operate under a KYC-lite model, requesting documents only in cases of suspicious transactions. What about Kraken, CoinEx, and Changelly?

moneystery

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since the first time i found out about these mixers i kept wondering why this service appeared and even more so since one of the most popular mixers went down. but after seeing how many people were discussing these mixers, i finally understood that mixers were needed by people to be able to mix their transactions so it was very difficult to track. it seems that this service is needed by people who want ease in washing their transactions, because users only need to send their bitcoins to the designated wallet and put their destination wallet and then the mixer will work to mix the transactions.

but the question is, if the transaction is from a clean thing, why is there any need to be afraid? unless the transaction is so dirty that it needs to be covered. so my conclusion is that we don't really need these mixers services, only those who want privacy to cover their transactions need this.

BALIK

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Quote from: btc78 on January 08, 2024, 07:32:01 AM

I personally do not feel the need for mixers or any method of transactions that keeps privacy as I have no particular use for them at least as of now

But if i were to guess, i would say that converting bitcoin to other cryptocurrencies is much tasking than just using a mixer not to mention the price volatility that could affect the amount of bitcoin you are sending or receiving

Many people have no need to use mixers and consider them unnecessary because they don't have too many bitcoins. But I believe if you or anyone owns a lot of bitcoins or huge amount of assets, you will definitely need mixing tools or any tools to enhance your privacy.

The majority of investors in the market only focus on making profits rather than focusing on protecting their privacy. So it's not too surprising that mixer services are still not widely used or used much.

btc78

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I personally do not feel the need for mixers or any method of transactions that keeps privacy as I have no particular use for them at least as of now

But if i were to guess, i would say that converting bitcoin to other cryptocurrencies is much tasking than just using a mixer not to mention the price volatility that could affect the amount of bitcoin you are sending or receiving

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Quote from: supporterofpeace on January 07, 2024, 02:26:11 PM

Now, that the mixers are banned from this forum, I wonder, why do we even need BTC mixers.
A non-KYC exchange solves the mixer problem where Bitcoin and Monero are available too.

1. If you have bitcoin which is connected to you and you want an untraceable one, you should:
i) Go to an (even KYC) exchange, where you change your BTC to XMR.
ii) Send the XMR to 'monero_address_1'.
iii) Send the XMR from 'monero_address_1' to 'monero_address_2' outside of the exchange.
iiii) Send XMR from 'monero_address_2' to a non/KYC exchange and change your XMR to BTC.

2. If you have 'dirty' bitcoin and you want a clear one, you should:
i) Go to a non-KYC exchange, where you change your BTC to XMR.
ii) Send the XMR to 'monero_address_1'.
iii) Send the XMR from 'monero_address_1' to 'monero_address_2' outside of the exchange.
iiii) Send XMR from 'monero_address_2'q to an (even KYC) exchange and change it to BTC.

As I see it, there are non-KYC services where you can change BTC to XMR or XMR to BTC.
According to my research, e.g. changenow.io seems a KYC exchange, but they don't ask your documents, only in case of suspicious transactions. Or do you know surely non-KYC echanges with BTC <-> XMR change possibility?
What do i miss?

I like the number one plan, it is a good approach for those who want their Bitcoin private for security and personal reasons with no strings attached. But what you are missing according to your question is encouraging "dirty Bitcoin." Should I say I detest this? Your insensitivity is what is missing and you should have just limited it to the first suggestion.

Bitcoin is a very good project, a near-perfect one for that matter if bad users could be kicked out. And no wonder Monero is a subject of controversy now and some exchanges are beginning to flag it for further studies before they act upon it.

BenCodie

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Quote from: BlackBoss_ on January 07, 2024, 08:15:55 PM

Quote from: BabyBandit on January 07, 2024, 08:12:33 PM

Simple answer: No.

No we don't need bitcoin mixers, actually it's very few things we need in life, but we get addicted of stuff because we are humans and that's in our nature and we got that in our brain.

Yes and No, depends on you and others with different needs and different technical ability to use bitcoin in private manner.

If I am a non tech person, want to achieve privacy, but feel headache with Coin join transaction, I will have need to use mix services. It will cost me more but if I can afford to pay the service fee, I will use it.

If I am a person who does not care about privacy, mixing services are not in my thinking. KYC is not a big problem for me.

I suppose this is the way to put it most simply, though it's not good practice to:
- Trust custodial services (let alone trust the coins within them) by default just because of laziness to learn basic technical features, like coinjoin.
- Using KYC services even if privacy is not a focus (privacy aside, this opens the door to identity compromise down the line).

Quote from: Kruw on January 07, 2024, 09:27:14 PM

No, you do not need Bitcoin Mixers, and you don't need Monero either. You can hold your own keys while turning your Bitcoins anonymous using coinjoin transactions. Here's a massive coinjoin transaction for over 600 BTC that confirmed earlier this week:

Quote from: Learn Bitcoin on January 08, 2024, 06:33:16 AM

Quote from: supporterofpeace on January 07, 2024, 02:26:11 PM

What do i miss?

It's not like Bitcoin Mixers are too necessary for privacy. We can increase privacy following the methods you have shared. But, that's too much task to do. While Mixers take a few clicks only. When you could do it with a few clicks, why do you have to do that many transactions as an alternative? Mixers are banned in this forum, but they are still online. They are banned here does not mean we cannot use them.

Whoever used the mixers before and loved the idea will keep using them. Most of the forum users do not have dirty money to clean. I don't think forum users use Bitcoin mixers too much. The mixers do not expect huge traffic from the forum. They were here to build a reputation, so they could get trust from their users.

Overall accurate points, +1

Quote from: franky1 on January 07, 2024, 08:00:33 PM

Quote from: supporterofpeace on January 07, 2024, 07:07:52 PM

I see your point of view and you are right, I totally agree. But your answer has nothing to do with the original question.
I asked that why do we need bitcoin mixers, if there is Monero. We can change BTC to XMR and vica versa on no-KYC exchanges, and make an XMR to XMR transaction between the changes. This is a theoretical question.

XMR is by regulation standard a AEC (anonymity enhanced currency) which also flags up as suspicious if found users are converting btc to xmr.
so investigators do try to watch XMR too

Measuring Mixers vs. Monero in the eyes of regulation or the "algorithm"/"flags" would be an interesting visualization, if there ever was one. I don't think it's right to consider all Monero transactions as suspicious and I think that it would be infeasible to flag them all as suspicious, it would also be difficult track Monero > Other cryptocurrency transactions where a non-kyc service is being used.

Quote from: franky1 on January 07, 2024, 08:00:33 PM

Quote from: supporterofpeace on January 07, 2024, 07:07:52 PM

I see your point of view and you are right, I totally agree. But your answer has nothing to do with the original question.
I asked that why do we need bitcoin mixers, if there is Monero. We can change BTC to XMR and vica versa on no-KYC exchanges, and make an XMR to XMR transaction between the changes. This is a theoretical question.

so finding a service that does it without KYC becomes difficult because most advertised exchanges have to register as money service businesses and then comply to regulations..
any MSB not complying to regulations by not registering usually gets caught

It would depend on the jurisdiction as well as the way it is operated.

Learn Bitcoin

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Quote from: supporterofpeace on January 07, 2024, 02:26:11 PM

What do i miss?

It's not like Bitcoin Mixers are too necessary for privacy. We can increase privacy following the methods you have shared. But, that's too much task to do. While Mixers take a few clicks only. When you could do it with a few clicks, why do you have to do that many transactions as an alternative? Mixers are banned in this forum, but they are still online. They are banned here does not mean we cannot use them.

Whoever used the mixers before and loved the idea will keep using them. Most of the forum users do not have dirty money to clean. I don't think forum users use Bitcoin mixers too much. The mixers do not expect huge traffic from the forum. They were here to build a reputation, so they could get trust from their users.

348Judah

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Quote from: supporterofpeace on January 07, 2024, 02:26:11 PM

Now, that the mixers are banned from this forum, I wonder, why do we even need BTC mixers.
A non-KYC exchange solves the mixer problem where Bitcoin and Monero are available too.

Mixers are quite different from exchanges, a mixer cannot perform the role and function of an exchange, even though we can use an exchange to serve as mixers but the intention for using a mixer would not be achieved by using a centralized exchanges, while a decentralized exchanges also can partly serve the role, but we have to make use of decentralized exchanges that are of high reputation because you later have to find out some may require you undergoing partly KYC while they have changes on their policies, I will recommend the use of these decentralized exchanges for that purpose.

Bisq
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Quote from: supporterofpeace on January 07, 2024, 02:26:11 PM

1. If you have bitcoin which is connected to you and you want an untraceable one, you should:
i) Go to an (even KYC) exchange, where you change your BTC to XMR.
ii) Send the XMR to 'monero_address_1'.
iii) Send the XMR from 'monero_address_1' to 'monero_address_2' outside of the exchange.
iiii) Send XMR from 'monero_address_2' to a non/KYC exchange and change your XMR to BTC.

You talking about this is when you're not privacy minded, the first reason for using a mixer is to avoid KYC which is the first step to guarantee your security, after that, before even talking about using XMR for your transactions, first consider the rate or amount you're trying to send first, could that also not be subjective to using KYC even for your account to be verified or to send a huge amounts of money.

Quote from: supporterofpeace on January 07, 2024, 02:26:11 PM

2. If you have 'dirty' bitcoin and you want a clear one, you should:
i) Go to a non-KYC exchange, where you change your BTC to XMR.
ii) Send the XMR to 'monero_address_1'.
iii) Send the XMR from 'monero_address_1' to 'monero_address_2' outside of the exchange.
iiii) Send XMR from 'monero_address_2'q to an (even KYC) exchange and change it to BTC.

Are you actually giving this to help those involved in shady acts, things like this are what makes the use of mixers become difficult for others to enjoy since they are tagged to be for illegal activities instead of serving for privacy.

jossiel

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Some of these non kyc exchanges might ask you out of the blue verifications especially when you're exchanging quite high amounts. They're still followers of their laws and regulations and that's why if you are to use them, don't do such with high amounts.

Tainted or not, it depends where you're going to send them or someone might just be paranoid because he/she is thinking that the tainted Bitcoins he's got needed to get cleaned.

Because services or likely another exchange where you will send them might have a reference to these 'dirty' Bitcoins. Otherwise, just IMO, it's not a matter of big concern.

hugeblack

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Quote from: supporterofpeace on January 07, 2024, 02:26:11 PM

1. If you have bitcoin which is connected to you and you want an untraceable one, you should:
i) Go to an (even KYC) exchange, where you change your BTC to XMR.

If you have forgotten, more KYC exchanges have started to delist privacy coins^{[1] [2]}, and I believe that by the end of next year there will be no KYC exchanges that accept these privacy coins, and the government will try to track down the DEXs and may be able to force them not to list any privacy coins.
The only service available is P2P DEXs. Here, the government may create hundreds of honeypot accounts, and then, once you deposit, your coins will be blocked.

Therefore, we need a decentralized Bitcoin mixer, to which users contribute and whose goal is to enhance customer privacy.

Proposed solutions:

- Enhancing privacy through side networks.
- Confidential transactions (CT)^[3]
- Find a decentralized way to mix the private key, something like a chipmixer but decentralized.

[1] https://www.okx.com/help/okx-to-delist-several-spot-trading-pairs-12-29
[2] Binance to Delist Monero, Zcash, and Other Privacy Coins As Regulatory Pressure Intensifies in Eu
[3] https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Confidential_transactions

wallet4bitcoin

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I know that there is need to mix btc by some people who consider theirs' dirty or not wanting to be traced or tracked.

Some bridge I know can actually solve the problem of mixers even without coming out plainly to call themselves mixers.
Allbridge.io can actually help you mix without the need for kyc and without being traced but I guess nobody has seen them as that yet.

Kruw

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No, you do not need Bitcoin Mixers, and you don't need Monero either. You can hold your own keys while turning your Bitcoins anonymous using coinjoin transactions. Here's a massive coinjoin transaction for over 600 BTC that confirmed earlier this week:

Quote from: Kruw on January 07, 2024, 09:05:33 PM

Wasabi made 610 Bitcoins anonymous with a single coinjoin transaction: https://mempool.space/tx/fb596c9f675471019c60e984b569f9020dac3b2822b16396042b50c890b45e5e

coinerer

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Mixing sites have been promoted on this forum for a long time but I have never used them. I know how they work but I haven't needed to use them. And now mixing platforms have been banned by Theymos due to many illegal activities being done in them. So I'm not encouraged to use the mixer platform. these platforms are useful for those who want to make large transactions secretly but not important for users like me.

Fundamentals Of

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There are alternatives for people who prefer to keep their privacy intact. The use of Bitcoin mixers is not the only way for a user to stay private. Having said this I think we really don't need Bitcoin mixers. We need ways to provide us privacy but Bitcoin mixers don't have the monopoly of this kind of service. The example given in the OP also provides privacy. CoinJoin also provides privacy in a manner that is legally acceptable. During these times when mixers are perceived negatively, there remains other ways to achieve what one can achieve with mixers.

Topic: Do we even need bitcoin mixers? - page 5. (Read 1399 times)