Topic: Do we even need bitcoin mixers? - page 6. (Read 1399 times)

I get your point, but do we NEED them? or does them make things easier? And it's a very solid point. But I think we need to think bigger. For example: if 95% of the people using mixers doing it because illegal stuff and 5% doing it for legal stuff mixers should get banned from existing. As many other mention here it's many ways around it and if mixers shutdown I assure you it will be hell harder for the scammers to steal millions/billions from innocent people.
But as I said I get your point and I agree, but sometimes we need to give up om something good for a bigger purpose, and don't forget humans is smart and creative I am positive something new can come up that can offer some kind of same service but be able to cut off the fucking scammers that stealing huge amounts from innocent people.*
But also, people can still use mixers, but they cant earn money from them on this forum so I don't see the problem and this "decentralized blabla stuff" is just nonsense IMO. Because this place is not decentralized. We got a moderator that are in charge, tho this is a close as decentralized you can get I think. But people should stop focus on that mixers got banned and focus on find a job or something.  


Here I am exactly the same.  

And what is exactly is the problem here? Mixers is still up and active on the internet and everyone can use them!? The difference is that users her on bitcointalk cant make money out of them from a sign campaign. So all this does not make sense at all. Money is something you should earn from work and not from posting on a forum.
I think we should pause this discussion for 1-2 months and come back when everyone have lay their feelings behind them.  

Best regards.
/ BabyB

Yes and No, depends on you and others with different needs and different technical ability to use bitcoin in private manner.

If I am a non tech person, want to achieve privacy, but feel headache with Coin join transaction, I will have need to use mix services. It will cost me more but if I can afford to pay the service fee, I will use it.

If I am a person who does not care about privacy, mixing services are not in my thinking. KYC is not a big problem for me.

Good thread supporterofpeace

Simple answer: No we don't need mixers. - And what's the problem? people can still use them, but they cant earn money from them on a signature campaign, many users focus on totally wrong thing.

No we don't need bitcoin mixers, actually it's very few things we need in life, but we get addicted of stuff because we are humans and that's in our nature and we got that stuck in our brain.
So change the question to "Is mixers a good service?" "Should mixers not have been banned from the forum?" This is a hard question since many users is sad/angry because they lost an income because of the banning, so they will reply with emotions and feelings and that's only make everything wrong but I understand them. But it's better things to earn money from in life then posting posts on a forum but also they can still use mixers if they really need it. So I don't see the problem? And this nonsense that this forum is a decentralized place and everything should be illegal is just stupid, this forum is not a decentralized place since we got moderators that are in charge.

A lot of things is about money and greed and every human stand themself closest that's the hard reality and it's nothing wrong with that I just pointing it out, we are humans and our subconscious control what we do to 90%-95% so we need to train to put good things in our subconscious and remove the negativity, and yes I know what I am speaking about and this is hard and take years of practice but it's possible trust me.

And if you ask me I hope mixers get banned and shut down from the internet totally because they cause much more bad then good, how many actually using mixers here and for what reason, come on.. you know I know.  
I have no proof or statistic so I only man guessing, but try to see it this way how many using mixers for illegal purposes way and in how many in a legal way? Since all this "Expert hackers" using them when they empty innocent's people wallet for millions of millions even billions total worth of dollars using them we at least got some proof that a very high traffic is for illegal activities. So that's why I hope they get shut down completely, it will only make it harder for the scammers to get away with their shit, and yes probably they would find some other way yes, but we should always do what we can do to stop scamming and scammers instead of argue about things we cant affect at all we should focus on things we can affect and build up the crypto community even higher and increase the crypto reputation so more and more want to join it! If more people get into crypto then we all will be winners.
And we all here may not like each other or share opinions but we share one thing the love of crypto and decentralized places.. Focus on that instead and make that better instead of focus on things we can affect.
But in my opinion mixers don't serve a good purpose. And of course honest and good people using mixers to and I feel sorry for them yes, but sometime you need to give up something for a bigger purpose
And we humans are smart and always come up with new things and ideas. This will be good at the end! Trust me.   So for now, let the negativity out and let's get together as a group and let's start build up the crypto community.

Now the reply got quite long, sorry for that. Anyway have a great week everyone! New week and New possibilities.

Best regards.
/ BabyB.

In the process, there are points you disclosed your identity with KYC. There is too much dependence on Monero blockchain for fund transfer and mix through Monero blockchain.

Governments try to break down the Monero blockchain and they even announce big prize for anyone, any company can break down Monero privacy.

[Guide] Decent mixing methods

If you want privacy, at the start, you must avoid KYC first even with BTC transaction and trade, do it with non KYC exchanges.

if just using 1 exchange there is no point using xmr at all, just use the exchanges own algo internally to ensure deposits are different to withdrawals (aka unadvertised mixing, by branding themselves as an exchange instead)

yes XMR can be used as the middle path to make sure deposited btc in exchange1 is not the same as withdrawn btc in exchange2 due to different btc reserves..
but that would require you using 2 exchanges to guarantee different reserves of btc for it to need XMR to traverse the 2 exchanges


XMR is by regulation standard a AEC (anonymity enhanced currency) which also flags up as suspicious if found users are converting btc to xmr.
so investigators do try to watch XMR too

so finding a service that does it without KYC becomes difficult because most advertised exchanges have to register as money service businesses and then comply to regulations..
any MSB not complying to regulations by not registering usually gets caught

I see your point of view and you are right, I totally agree. But your answer has nothing to do with the original question.
I asked that why do we need bitcoin mixers, if there is Monero. We can change BTC to XMR and vica versa on no-KYC exchanges, and make an XMR to XMR transaction between the changes. This is a theoretical question.

by using a btc-btc mixer, your inflow and outflow gets tagged as suspicious and gets on a watchlist.. defeating the purpose of using a mixer
by doing btc xmr btc is still a thing where the btc inflow and btc outflow gets tagged and gets on a watchlist.. defeating the purpose of using a AEC
(purpose being avoid being watched/tagged as needing to be watched)

you are more likely to have coins followed by an investigator by simply using a mixer/AEC compared to just spending coins

the only people that benefit is the criminals that have direct access to criminally known dirty coins that want to offload them to some idiot victim being told their clean coins are not good enough and need to mix them, but end up with the criminals dirty coins so that the criminal can walk away with cleaner coins with just a taint of suspicion of just mixing.. rather than a taint of criminality lowering the criminals suspicion threshold but raising the innocent persons suspicion threshold
..
the funniest part is
when mixer promoters try to tell victims btc is fungible "1btc is equal to 1btc". if the promoter truly believed that then they would not be trying to get people to use mixers nor need to use mixers themselves

however they only say the fungability script, to dupe idiots into thinking its ok to receive criminal coins and victim hands over clean coins

..
so here is the thing.
there are not enough investigators in the world to be watching everyone all the time.
each transaction may go through an algo that tags a suspicion percentage to a coin whereby if it reaches a threshold then an investigator looks at it. if the threshold is raised higher then its reported to authorities, if its higher the authorities get court orders to seek more information of service users deposited coins. then if the threshold is raised further then accounts are frozen

you dont get watched or have coins on accounts frozen just for using bitcoin. however using a mixer gets you watched.. and if you received dirty coins in that process you then get into issues of having to explain things.

so cut out the middle men dont be duped into thinking you should use a mixer and its fine to receive dirty coins because you were told by mixer promoters no harm comes to you.. because the opposite is try, chances of harm raise by using mixers/ AEC
if no harm can come from being handed criminal linked coins.. the the criminals wouldnt be so determined to promote ways for them to get rid of their coins via innocent clean coin victims being told to use mixers

mixers do not "wash" all coins to make all coins clean again.. they instead give criminals a method to offload dirty coins for innocent people to pick up

in short it only benefits the criminals

---

analogies
many people walk down a side walk doing their own thing.
if you are being told not to just walk the sidewalk like others but instead weave and dodge and hide behind bushes, even if you are not a criminal or done anything wrong. people will start looking at you more then you intended .. defeating the point of not wanting to be looked at
if a criminal says there is nothing wrong with what clothing someone wheres and all clothing is the same. so suggest you swap clothing with a criminal.. they get to walk off with your clothes and look innocent and you are suddenly now appearing as the criminals description

Now, that the mixers are banned from this forum, I wonder, why do we even need BTC mixers.
A non-KYC exchange solves the mixer problem where Bitcoin and Monero are available too.

1. If you have bitcoin which is connected to you and you want an untraceable one, you should:
i) Go to an (even KYC) exchange, where you change your BTC to XMR.
ii) Send the XMR to 'monero_address_1'.
iii) Send the XMR from 'monero_address_1' to 'monero_address_2' outside of the exchange.
iiii) Send XMR from 'monero_address_2' to a non/KYC exchange and change your XMR to BTC.

2. If you have 'dirty' bitcoin and you want a clear one, you should:
i) Go to a non-KYC exchange, where you change your BTC to XMR.
ii) Send the XMR to 'monero_address_1'.
iii) Send the XMR from 'monero_address_1' to 'monero_address_2' outside of the exchange.
iiii) Send XMR from 'monero_address_2'q to an (even KYC) exchange and change it to BTC.

As I see it, there are non-KYC services where you can change BTC to XMR or XMR to BTC.
According to my research, e.g. changenow.io seems a KYC exchange, but they don't ask your documents, only in case of suspicious transactions. Or do you know surely non-KYC echanges with BTC <-> XMR change possibility?
What do i miss?