Do we even need bitcoin mixers? - page 3.

fuguebtc

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Quote from: examplens on February 24, 2024, 04:49:48 AM

Quote from: fuguebtc on February 24, 2024, 04:39:02 AM

In addition, if owning a large amount of assets is very dangerous for us . So, people with assets up to tens of millions of dollars, billions of dollars still trade on those centralized exchanges. Are they in danger and are they unaware of those dangers? I mean it could still happen but it wouldn't be as severe as you describe.

Whoever keeps millions on a centralized exchange is an idiot, period.

I'm not talking about whether they store their bitcoins on centralized exchanges or not . What I just want to say is that there are many sharks with millions of dollars still using centralized exchanges as a place for trading and liquidity because we all know that only centralized exchanges provide such massive liquidity to the market. And when we use centralized exchanges, it doesn't always put us in danger just because some people know we own bitcoin . I understand that we will definitely lose privacy when using centralized exchanges but there will be no danger like you are mentioning .

Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating or encouraging people to use centralized exchanges because it is everyone's choice but there is not too much danger when using them properly.

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Quote from: Fundamentals Of on January 07, 2024, 08:44:58 PM

There are alternatives for people who prefer to keep their privacy intact. The use of Bitcoin mixers is not the only way for a user to stay private. Having said this I think we really don't need Bitcoin mixers. We need ways to provide us privacy but Bitcoin mixers don't have the monopoly of this kind of service. The example given in the OP also provides privacy. CoinJoin also provides privacy in a manner that is legally acceptable. During these times when mixers are perceived negatively, there remains other ways to achieve what one can achieve with mixers.

Between mixers and airgapping a perfectly usable device to act as you wallet, mixing your cryptocurrencies is definitely going to be the more appealing option.

You have to consider the fact that the reason why mixing is so prevalent even after getting some leering eyes from the international global scene, is because it's the most convenient way out there to secure your cryptocurrencies, and to protect your identity. Sure, converting your bitcoins/crypto to monero's an equally appealing ordeal but the concept is not explored to its fullest capacity just yet, forcing people into instead following what the norm is, which is mixing. Airgapping and other forms of cryptocurrency anonymity tactics are cumbersome as well in the face of completely obscuring your footsteps with the single press of a button. Which is why at the end of the day, mixing will remain existent even though we don't technically need them anymore.

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Quote from: examplens on February 23, 2024, 03:10:52 PM

Quote from: The Cryptovator on February 23, 2024, 02:48:49 PM

To be honest, I don't see reasons for me to mix my Bitcoin. That doesn't mean I don't care about my privacy. Of course, I am concerned about my privacy, but how will others know about my holdings? Let's say I withdraw from Binance to my BTC address. So they know who owns this bitcoin. What makes that risky for me?

just a few examples
Your government can ask for insight in order to collect taxes.
Some insiders can sell your information to bad people from your environment, so if you have a significant amount, it can create a lot of inconvenience in life. If you were to sell the house and get cash, you certainly wouldn't feel safe if everyone around you knew you had xx amount in your hands.

I can understand, but let's be honest. Do we have the best place to trade crypto without providing your identification documents? There are a few decentralised exchanges, but they are not very popular. So most people have been using centralised exchanges, and funds have been traced. We can simply cut the transaction by doing a P2P trade. It's not necessary to depend on mixers alone. Exchange can trace only where you withdraw, but they don't know actually who owned the address. Just use multiple addresses and cut the transaction history.

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Quote from: dkbit98 on February 24, 2024, 03:44:07 PM

Quote from: examplens on February 24, 2024, 04:49:48 AM

Whoever keeps millions on a centralized exchange is an idiot, period.

All big traders are holding coins on centralized exchanges, and if you didn't notice Coinbase exchange is custodian for most Bitcoin ETF's so far Tongue

It has been proven time and again that keeping significant amounts of money on centralized exchanges is not safe, no matter how reputable that exchange is. Trading has always been the most speculative topic in this regards cause decentralized platforms don't offer the liquidity required and traders wisely cannot keep withdrawing and then depositing back when they want to trade.

So, I can understand why one would want to keep funds there, but would still advice against it.

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For some people, they do need bitcoin mixers to have a privacy when transferring funds but as you can see that many bitcoin mixers are taken down by the FBI because using bitcoin mixers is already an act of money laundering if you talk about the law even though your aim of using it is to have a privacy in the first place. Anyway, about the situation where you exchange your btc to xmr and then xmr to btc is not applicable in my opinion for small amount of funds since you have to pay a fee everytime you exchange a crypto in an exchange. I have tried it myself and the value I got at the end is not the same value as I have it before and there's also the spread of buy and sell price.

Quote from: NeuroticFish on February 24, 2024, 04:10:41 PM

Quote from: dkbit98 on February 24, 2024, 03:44:07 PM

I think we need to have as much tools as possible to achieve better privacy with bitcoin transactions.

Completely agreed.

I second the motion.

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Quote from: dkbit98 on February 24, 2024, 03:44:07 PM

I think we need to have as much tools as possible to achieve better privacy with bitcoin transactions.

Completely agreed.

Quote from: dkbit98 on February 24, 2024, 03:44:07 PM

Quote from: examplens on February 24, 2024, 04:49:48 AM

Whoever keeps millions on a centralized exchange is an idiot, period.

All big traders are holding coins on centralized exchanges, and if you didn't notice Coinbase exchange is custodian for most Bitcoin ETF's so far Tongue

https://blockworks.co/bitcoin-etf

Coinbase is probably acting already like a bank. And businesses keep billions at banks. I hope that Coinbase are not idiots and have those coins in cold storage and also insured.

Of course, examplens is also 99% correct. Most exchanges cannot be trusted (I would not trust Coinbase either, but that's me). For us, here on Bitcointalk, self custody is the best option. For the big companies there's no difference they keep their wealth in a bank or at Coinbase.

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I think we need to have as much tools as possible to achieve better privacy with bitcoin transactions.
Using something decentralized would be ideal, but most centralized exchanges already acted similar like mixers for years.
People who use centralized exchanges, don't use mixers, say they dont have anything to hide, and say they care about privacy are nothing more than hypocrites. Tongue

Quote from: examplens on February 24, 2024, 04:49:48 AM

Whoever keeps millions on a centralized exchange is an idiot, period.

All big traders are holding coins on centralized exchanges, and if you didn't notice Coinbase exchange is custodian for most Bitcoin ETF's so far Tongue

https://blockworks.co/bitcoin-etf

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on February 24, 2024, 12:25:05 PM

Quote from: FinneysTrueVision on February 24, 2024, 12:30:55 AM

DeFi exchanges, as you call them, don’t take custody of user’s funds

Can you prove it? From my experience with DeFi, the software is closed-source. You can export private keys and the like, but you can't know with certainty if another entity holds your keys as well. And in my opinion, if another entity holds my keys, it isn't self-custodial, regardless of what I do.

Uniswap which is the biggest DEX, and the one which most other DEXs base their code on has been open source from the beginning. Starting from V3, their code was released under a business source license which meant it can be reviewed but not copied for commercial use until after 2 years when it becomes open source.

Nobody holds the keys to your wallet but you do have to give permission for smart contracts to pull a specified amount of funds from your wallet. By default the limit is usually set to allow an infinite amount of funds that can be used by a specific contract. If the contract is immutable and developers renounced ownership, which can be done by setting the owner to a burn address, then there is very minimal risk of getting rugpulled.

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Quote from: FinneysTrueVision on February 24, 2024, 12:30:55 AM

DeFi exchanges, as you call them, don’t take custody of user’s funds

Can you prove it? From my experience with DeFi, the software is closed-source. You can export private keys and the like, but you can't know with certainty if another entity holds your keys as well. And in my opinion, if another entity holds my keys, it isn't self-custodial, regardless of what I do.

Quote from: kryptqnick on February 24, 2024, 11:54:44 AM

Mixers are getting outlawed, and it's not surprising because what they do is basically money laundering (in a sense that the procedure is literally built to hide the origins of money, both legit and not legit money). If someone is that much into privacy that doesn't care for Bitcoin's pseudonymity, then like others said, there are private coins for that.

Right, as if you don't mix your coins with other people's coins in private coins, or as if private coins aren't "literally built" to hide the origins of money (both "legit" and "not legit")! Cheesy

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Mixers are getting outlawed, and it's not surprising because what they do is basically money laundering (in a sense that the procedure is literally built to hide the origins of money, both legit and not legit money). If someone is that much into privacy that doesn't care for Bitcoin's pseudonymity, then like others said, there are private coins for that. To me, transparency is a value, and while I believe in the value of privacy, it's not extremely important to me, so I've never felt like I needed to use mixers for anything.

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I would go a really simple way for exchanging not huge amounts or even huge amounts that have no urgency and can be taken out little by little.This can be done easily by sending money to a casino wallet,play there for fun some money and then withdraw to a new wallet,this way it is almost impossible to trace your Bitcoins or any other currency supported by the casino platform.Of course I am talking here about people with an emphasize on privacy and no criminals which they want all money as soon as they can,for them without mixers it is quite difficult.

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Quote from: fuguebtc on February 24, 2024, 04:39:02 AM

What do you mean we are using bitcoin to avoid taxes? I think we need to have privacy even from the government because maybe one day the government will confiscate our property without any reason . But I don't think using bitcoin is to avoid taxes and it's not a good move. If everyone uses bitcoin to avoid taxes , what would the country be like without taxes?

If you pay more attention, you will see that I gave an example of why someone would use a mixer.
I apologize for not stating that it is not financial advice.

Quote from: fuguebtc on February 24, 2024, 04:39:02 AM

In addition, if owning a large amount of assets is very dangerous for us . So, people with assets up to tens of millions of dollars, billions of dollars still trade on those centralized exchanges. Are they in danger and are they unaware of those dangers? I mean it could still happen but it wouldn't be as severe as you describe.

Whoever keeps millions on a centralized exchange is an idiot, period.

fuguebtc

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Quote from: examplens on February 23, 2024, 03:10:52 PM

Quote from: The Cryptovator on February 23, 2024, 02:48:49 PM

To be honest, I don't see reasons for me to mix my Bitcoin. That doesn't mean I don't care about my privacy. Of course, I am concerned about my privacy, but how will others know about my holdings? Let's say I withdraw from Binance to my BTC address. So they know who owns this bitcoin. What makes that risky for me?

just a few examples
Your government can ask for insight in order to collect taxes.
Some insiders can sell your information to bad people from your environment, so if you have a significant amount, it can create a lot of inconvenience in life. If you were to sell the house and get cash, you certainly wouldn't feel safe if everyone around you knew you had xx amount in your hands.

What do you mean we are using bitcoin to avoid taxes? I think we need to have privacy even from the government because maybe one day the government will confiscate our property without any reason . But I don't think using bitcoin is to avoid taxes and it's not a good move. If everyone uses bitcoin to avoid taxes , what would the country be like without taxes?

In addition, if owning a large amount of assets is very dangerous for us . So, people with assets up to tens of millions of dollars, billions of dollars still trade on those centralized exchanges. Are they in danger and are they unaware of those dangers? I mean it could still happen but it wouldn't be as severe as you describe.

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on January 09, 2024, 05:20:04 AM

Quote from: SamReomo on January 08, 2024, 04:22:32 PM

I think one of those rug-pull decentralized exchanges is Swaprum’s that did a rug-pull exist and stole funds of the users.

That was a DeFi exchange, not a decentralized. No truly decentralized exchange offers farming rewards, staking pools, referral programs and a shit-token called SARP. And as already said, if an exchange is decentralized, it does not take custody.

DeFi exchanges, as you call them, don’t take custody of user’s funds but you do have to trust that there isn’t any backdoors or undiscovered bugs in their smart contracts. They might have ponzi-like aspects to them but they are still decentralized.

Quote from: Kruw on February 23, 2024, 11:38:20 PM

100% true. People should have learned their lesson about "mixing sites" a long time ago. Coinjoins keep your funds and data safe, so there's absolutely no excuse for anyone to use/promote/operate a "mixing site".

There was this story from last week where a user claims to have lost 15 BTC on Unijoin. He was given a letter of guarantee with a fake signature, that he didn’t bother to verify like most users of mixers, which makes it nearly impossible to prove he was even scammed.
https://www.altcoinstalks.com/index.php?topic=317783.0

All the people with mixer advertisements in their signatures are making excuses and trying to gaslight the user by saying they weren’t actually scammed. Even if the user is lying for whatever reason, this is still an inherent vulnerability present in any custodial mixing service. No amount of signature payments is enough to make this danger go away.

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Quote from: isaah23 on February 23, 2024, 11:59:41 AM

No, we don't need.
People who trust mixers, how do you know there is no logging your ip and input/output addresses on backend?
You trust message "Anonymous/Privacy" on their website?
If even "the most private and anonymous" Proton mail working with police...

100% true. People should have learned their lesson about "mixing sites" a long time ago. Coinjoins keep your funds and data safe, so there's absolutely no excuse for anyone to use/promote/operate a "mixing site".

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Quote from: The Cryptovator on February 23, 2024, 02:48:49 PM

To be honest, I don't see reasons for me to mix my Bitcoin. That doesn't mean I don't care about my privacy. Of course, I am concerned about my privacy, but how will others know about my holdings? Let's say I withdraw from Binance to my BTC address. So they know who owns this bitcoin. What makes that risky for me?

just a few examples
Your government can ask for insight in order to collect taxes.
Some insiders can sell your information to bad people from your environment, so if you have a significant amount, it can create a lot of inconvenience in life. If you were to sell the house and get cash, you certainly wouldn't feel safe if everyone around you knew you had xx amount in your hands.

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I've never used a mixer, but... the fact that we may not need it doesn't change that we should be able to use it. Let's say you find something unimportant and don't use it. Many people feel safe, don't own guns and feel like it's a good idea to restrict others from owning guns. Do you support this? I sure don't.

Living in a society demands us to set up a list of rules and things that are limited or forbidden, but this should be limited to things that are dangerous. For instance, we don't want people to have radioactive materials at home because that could make us, neighbors, sick. Why should I care if someone uses a mixer? It's his free choice if he wants to.

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To be honest, I don't see reasons for me to mix my Bitcoin. That doesn't mean I don't care about my privacy. Of course, I am concerned about my privacy, but how will others know about my holdings? Let's say I withdraw from Binance to my BTC address. So they know who owns this bitcoin. What makes that risky for me? Will Binance attack me? If I can't trust them, then I haven't verified my KYC with them. If I don't have dirty funds or gambling funds, then I shouldn't have a problem with them. However, we can still exchange our bitcoin with someone else by p2p. We can sell Bitcoin and buyback again. We may lose some fees, of course, and the system may lose. But for me, I am fine when I am holding my bitcoin in a non-custodial wallet.

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Quote from: btc78 on January 08, 2024, 07:32:01 AM

I personally do not feel the need for mixers or any method of transactions that keeps privacy as I have no particular use for them at least as of now

LOL. I'm sorry I didn't laugh at you, but I did laugh at myself. I remember very well when I was a lower rank member of this forum and never understood anything about privacy. I would say I don't have need for a mixer;
I don't also have need for a privacy coin;
I do not fear KYC;
probably because I thought I'm safe because I'm not a criminal. Little did I know that securing your personal data should be the obligation of everyone whether a criminal or a saint. Just believe that you will one day not recieve a troubled bitcoin under government's scrutiny.

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No, we don't need.
People who trust mixers, how do you know there is no logging your ip and input/output addresses on backend?
You trust message "Anonymous/Privacy" on their website?
If even "the most private and anonymous" Proton mail working with police...

Topic: Do we even need bitcoin mixers? - page 3. (Read 1406 times)