Do you agree with idea "Bitcoin bank" ? - page 78.

deisik

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Quote from: ffe on January 09, 2017, 01:46:58 AM

I keep seeing people say things like "I don't understand why you would put your bitcoin in a bank". I think you are misunderstanding what a bank can do for people.

Most people HAVE NO BITCOIN. Most people do have collateral. A bank is able to judge the credit worthiness of people with collateral and loan them bitcoin. It would be a way to buy a house and have a mortgage denominated in bitcoin.

The value of banks is this ability to judge credit worthiness and give people who have no bitcoin access to bitcoin. The banks are willing to assume the risk. They are willing to pay interest to people who trust them and deposit bitcoin in banks

Obviously, you failed to account for something

Something which will render the whole idea of lending bitcoins unrealistic as of now. And it is not Bitcoin depreciation like what you mean with fiat that will make this idea fail. It is the exact opposite of that. I mean possible Bitcoin appreciation. i.e. its price rising. Let's assume a bank offers Bitcoin deposits at 1% and loans bitcoins at 5% interest rates annually. Now it takes collateral at, say, 120% dollar worth of the current Bitcoin price. Someone takes a loan from the bank and provides real collateral (let it be his house). Then Bitcoin price surges a few times within a year, and the borrower happily defaults on his loan buying a better house instead of his collateralized one and still having some bitcoins left in his pockets. But the bank can sell the house only for a part of the bitcoins it loaned out while it still has to pay interest on Bitcoin deposits it attracted, right? And from where will it get the bitcoins outstanding?

ffe

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I keep seeing people say things like "I don't understand why you would put your bitcoin in a bank". I think you are misunderstanding what a bank can do for people.

Most people HAVE NO BITCOIN. Most people do have collateral. A bank is able to judge the credit worthiness of people with collateral and loan them bitcoin. It would be a way to buy a house and have a mortgage denominated in bitcoin.

The value of banks is this ability to judge credit worthiness and give people who have no bitcoin access to bitcoin. The banks are willing to assume the risk. They are willing to pay interest to people who trust them and deposit bitcoin in banks.

Now banks are risky, but that is balanced by enormous value. Consider the biggest risk with banks based on fiat. It is that the central bank will print enough hard currency to debase your money. This can't happen with bitcoin. Each bitcoin bank has to manage its own risks without the expectation of a bailout from the central bank. I bet bitcoin banks will be much more conservative and trustworthy than fiat banks.

I would think the bitcoin community would welcome banks. They would enormously increase the worldwide use of bitcoin and bitcoin value would rise accordingly.

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BTC to the MOON in 2019

Quote from: bitbob82 on January 08, 2017, 09:22:51 PM

Quote from: Ewinsane on January 08, 2017, 06:07:26 PM

Quote from: PokerFace3 on January 08, 2017, 05:10:33 PM

Quote from: Doamader on January 01, 2017, 09:55:32 AM

This is a non sense idea, bitcoin its decentralized, doing such we will centralize our coins into one single person, that could easy manipulate the trading market and possible kill it, soo without any income from trading people would try to find other ways to get an income with bitcoin. This is something i do hope wont happen, this will destroy the freedom that bitcoin does allow to all, if you searching for interest of your coins try poloniex lending, or lend here with a colateral always rule.

But in future all banks are going to accept bitcoin in their banks because they will admit the importance of bitcoin and for example they will create their own online wallet services for bitcoin and will allow people to deposit their money in these wallets. I guess every web wallet providers also already doing works similar to banks.

if bank adopt the bitcoin it will be more good news for bitcoin then i hope bitcoin will be more popular and more stronger and then we can be use our bitcoin for direct shopping and then no one would be convert their bitcoin to fiat.

i think in future when bitcoin will become more popular and the users of bitcoin increase some more then they will certain take action i favour of bitcoin and they will even create online wallet for it.

That's already most of our prediction because once bitcoin will get more popular, it will spread awareness to people and if they understand then eventually they will adopt with it. When they adopt, that is when the price will increase more because of the demand.However, it's not right to predict that the bank will also adopt with bitcoin, it's unrealistic at all.

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Quote from: Ewinsane on January 08, 2017, 06:07:26 PM

Quote from: PokerFace3 on January 08, 2017, 05:10:33 PM

Quote from: Doamader on January 01, 2017, 09:55:32 AM

This is a non sense idea, bitcoin its decentralized, doing such we will centralize our coins into one single person, that could easy manipulate the trading market and possible kill it, soo without any income from trading people would try to find other ways to get an income with bitcoin. This is something i do hope wont happen, this will destroy the freedom that bitcoin does allow to all, if you searching for interest of your coins try poloniex lending, or lend here with a colateral always rule.

But in future all banks are going to accept bitcoin in their banks because they will admit the importance of bitcoin and for example they will create their own online wallet services for bitcoin and will allow people to deposit their money in these wallets. I guess every web wallet providers also already doing works similar to banks.

if bank adopt the bitcoin it will be more good news for bitcoin then i hope bitcoin will be more popular and more stronger and then we can be use our bitcoin for direct shopping and then no one would be convert their bitcoin to fiat.

i think in future when bitcoin will become more popular and the users of bitcoin increase some more then they will certain take action i favour of bitcoin and they will even create online wallet for it.

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Quote from: MMA on January 08, 2017, 03:16:42 PM

Quote from: stingers on January 08, 2017, 10:26:30 AM

Quote from: bitbunnny on October 18, 2016, 12:42:14 PM

I think that we don't need to discard this idea at start. Of course that Bitcoin users have negative opinion when banks are mentioned because they probably think on traditional banking system that Bitcoin is total oposite to. I feel that too. But for Bitcoin bank we can use the best banking features and discard all the worst. I'm not saying that I'm 100% for Bitcoin bank but I'd like to say that this idea maybe could be more developed and adjusted to the Bitcoin.

" for Bitcoin bank we can use the best banking features and discard all the worst".... Why do you think current banks discard the worse and use the best features? ...it's because this is how banks earn, a perfect bank for consumers will be a bank in loss.

but to me i think still there is no need of bitcoin banks, because still the bitcoin users can use online wallet for saving bitcoin, i think using online wallet is the most easy way of using it as you do not need to visit a bank and use card or checkbook for withdrawal of your bitcoins.

true, but some of the differences you can grow your bitcoin when you save bitcoin in the bank. but the risk is certainly your bitcoin is in the hands of third parties and your identity also

Ewinsane

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Quote from: PokerFace3 on January 08, 2017, 05:10:33 PM

Quote from: Doamader on January 01, 2017, 09:55:32 AM

This is a non sense idea, bitcoin its decentralized, doing such we will centralize our coins into one single person, that could easy manipulate the trading market and possible kill it, soo without any income from trading people would try to find other ways to get an income with bitcoin. This is something i do hope wont happen, this will destroy the freedom that bitcoin does allow to all, if you searching for interest of your coins try poloniex lending, or lend here with a colateral always rule.

But in future all banks are going to accept bitcoin in their banks because they will admit the importance of bitcoin and for example they will create their own online wallet services for bitcoin and will allow people to deposit their money in these wallets. I guess every web wallet providers also already doing works similar to banks.

if bank adopt the bitcoin it will be more good news for bitcoin then i hope bitcoin will be more popular and more stronger and then we can be use our bitcoin for direct shopping and then no one would be convert their bitcoin to fiat.

HabBear

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What is Bitcoin Bank? The OP doesn't mention. Is this supposed to be a Federal or Central bank for bitcoin?

If so, I'm against yet...yet we already sort of have this system established. There's a group of 30 or so core Bitcoin "developers" who meet yearly to discuss the bitcoin project and ways to control or influence or direct it.

The only thing this group of people doesn't control is the money supply, which is a small but very significant difference between their control and the control of a Central bank.

To the OP, it would be nice of you offered some background information on the topic so people can learn. Cheers!

PokerFace3

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Quote from: Doamader on January 01, 2017, 09:55:32 AM

This is a non sense idea, bitcoin its decentralized, doing such we will centralize our coins into one single person, that could easy manipulate the trading market and possible kill it, soo without any income from trading people would try to find other ways to get an income with bitcoin. This is something i do hope wont happen, this will destroy the freedom that bitcoin does allow to all, if you searching for interest of your coins try poloniex lending, or lend here with a colateral always rule.

But in future all banks are going to accept bitcoin in their banks because they will admit the importance of bitcoin and for example they will create their own online wallet services for bitcoin and will allow people to deposit their money in these wallets. I guess every web wallet providers also already doing works similar to banks.

MMA

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Quote from: stingers on January 08, 2017, 10:26:30 AM

Quote from: bitbunnny on October 18, 2016, 12:42:14 PM

I think that we don't need to discard this idea at start. Of course that Bitcoin users have negative opinion when banks are mentioned because they probably think on traditional banking system that Bitcoin is total oposite to. I feel that too. But for Bitcoin bank we can use the best banking features and discard all the worst. I'm not saying that I'm 100% for Bitcoin bank but I'd like to say that this idea maybe could be more developed and adjusted to the Bitcoin.

" for Bitcoin bank we can use the best banking features and discard all the worst".... Why do you think current banks discard the worse and use the best features? ...it's because this is how banks earn, a perfect bank for consumers will be a bank in loss.

but to me i think still there is no need of bitcoin banks, because still the bitcoin users can use online wallet for saving bitcoin, i think using online wallet is the most easy way of using it as you do not need to visit a bank and use card or checkbook for withdrawal of your bitcoins.

stingers

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Quote from: bitbunnny on October 18, 2016, 12:42:14 PM

I think that we don't need to discard this idea at start. Of course that Bitcoin users have negative opinion when banks are mentioned because they probably think on traditional banking system that Bitcoin is total oposite to. I feel that too. But for Bitcoin bank we can use the best banking features and discard all the worst. I'm not saying that I'm 100% for Bitcoin bank but I'd like to say that this idea maybe could be more developed and adjusted to the Bitcoin.

" for Bitcoin bank we can use the best banking features and discard all the worst".... Why do you think current banks discard the worse and use the best features? ...it's because this is how banks earn, a perfect bank for consumers will be a bank in loss.

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Quote from: deisik on January 08, 2017, 09:18:51 AM

Quote from: youdamushi on January 08, 2017, 08:56:26 AM

Quote from: deisik on January 07, 2017, 11:19:54 AM

Quote from: youdamushi on January 07, 2017, 09:56:47 AM

Yeah mister Cat-Pilot! But can we really separate banking system from its legal regulation? Both seems completely symbiotic don't they?
Bitcoin network is much less regulated than the banking system we know because banking system in our world needs governmental approbation to even exist.

But as you seem to have thought a lot about the question I have a question for you: what would be the point of a bitcoin bank?
I mean, a fiat bank has a very simple purpose, making money, and a simple utility for most of its users: providing a stock and exchange system. Banks were created for that, you use a bank not for the interest rates but because you NEED an account in order to send and receive money, because no company will give you your wage in cash, no government will make it easy for you to pay your taxes with cash, and even if all that was possible you would still want to stock your money in a "safe deposit". Of course interest rates are a plus, but you would use banks even if they had 0% interest rates!

But bitcoin already allow all of that. So what would be the main goal of banks?

I have already answered that question

You seem to misunderstand what a Bitcoin bank would mean in practice. Most likely, it won't be a separate entity like web wallets are now but rather a service offered by regular banks (once they are allowed to make business with Bitcoin). Obviously, such a service could potentially include everything that web wallets are offering nowadays, and in addition to that, banks would offer services which they basically earn money with and which make them different from other financial institutions, for example, by loaning bitcoins at interest protected with real collateral

Well... Not so sure about why I would put my money in a bank for that...
They would be used for specific investments maybe, but who would put his money inside just to let it there? That would be stupid. No real benefit and you hand out your money to a private corporation which can do whatever it wants...

Personally, you may not want to put your money there

But you can't possibly discard almost 5 million users of Coinbase alone. And it is far from being the only pebble on the beach. There are quite a few other web wallets out there (e.g. Xapo, BitGo, etc). What makes all their clients hold bitcoins there? It is security, ease of use, and free of charge transactions, obviously. Now add to this an interest paid on coins held in a Bitcoin bank account. Would you mind getting interest paid on your idle coins (given how many folks are just hoarding bitcoins)?

I've got to admit I don't understand people putting their btc in web wallets...
But it seems I'm not representing the majority.
I wouldn't accept putting my btc in a bitcoin bank even for interests, unless they're really huge ones. But the current interest rates in normal banks wouldn't make me putting my coins in a bank for example, it would need to be much higher.

deisik

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Quote from: youdamushi on January 08, 2017, 08:56:26 AM

Quote from: deisik on January 07, 2017, 11:19:54 AM

Quote from: youdamushi on January 07, 2017, 09:56:47 AM

Yeah mister Cat-Pilot! But can we really separate banking system from its legal regulation? Both seems completely symbiotic don't they?
Bitcoin network is much less regulated than the banking system we know because banking system in our world needs governmental approbation to even exist.

But as you seem to have thought a lot about the question I have a question for you: what would be the point of a bitcoin bank?
I mean, a fiat bank has a very simple purpose, making money, and a simple utility for most of its users: providing a stock and exchange system. Banks were created for that, you use a bank not for the interest rates but because you NEED an account in order to send and receive money, because no company will give you your wage in cash, no government will make it easy for you to pay your taxes with cash, and even if all that was possible you would still want to stock your money in a "safe deposit". Of course interest rates are a plus, but you would use banks even if they had 0% interest rates!

But bitcoin already allow all of that. So what would be the main goal of banks?

I have already answered that question

You seem to misunderstand what a Bitcoin bank would mean in practice. Most likely, it won't be a separate entity like web wallets are now but rather a service offered by regular banks (once they are allowed to make business with Bitcoin). Obviously, such a service could potentially include everything that web wallets are offering nowadays, and in addition to that, banks would offer services which they basically earn money with and which make them different from other financial institutions, for example, by loaning bitcoins at interest protected with real collateral

Well... Not so sure about why I would put my money in a bank for that...
They would be used for specific investments maybe, but who would put his money inside just to let it there? That would be stupid. No real benefit and you hand out your money to a private corporation which can do whatever it wants...

Personally, you may not want to put your money there

But you can't possibly discard almost 5 million users of Coinbase alone. And it is far from being the only pebble on the beach. There are quite a few other web wallets out there (e.g. Xapo, BitGo, etc). What makes all their clients hold bitcoins there? It is security, ease of use, and free of charge transactions, obviously. Now add to this an interest paid on coins held in a Bitcoin bank account. Would you mind getting interest paid on your idle coins (given how many folks are just hoarding bitcoins)?

youdamushi

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Quote from: deisik on January 07, 2017, 11:19:54 AM

Quote from: youdamushi on January 07, 2017, 09:56:47 AM

Quote from: deisik on January 07, 2017, 03:57:16 AM

Quote from: Ziskinberg on January 06, 2017, 11:31:06 PM

Banking industry is centralized and it defeats the purpose of using bitcoin, let's just admit that we cannot achieve big growth like making majority of people adopt with bitcoin as they certainly would choose the fiat system or any government regulated currency, and that's for security reasons

We should separate the wheat from the chaff

Fiat banks are centralized in a sense of being regulated by the laws passed by governments. A bank which breaks these laws loses their banking license and ceases banking operations. But banks are basically free in respect to how much money they can create (in certain limits, of course). In this way, they are decentralized even higher than Bitcoin miners which can create only as many bitcoins as firmly set by the current mining reward. On the other hand, the whole Bitcoin network is no less regulated than a banking system, I mean by the Bitcoin protocol. Some folks here claim that Bitcoin is even more regulated than any fiat system out there (if you are going to challenge that point, don't attack me since it is not my point)

Yeah mister Cat-Pilot! But can we really separate banking system from its legal regulation? Both seems completely symbiotic don't they?
Bitcoin network is much less regulated than the banking system we know because banking system in our world needs governmental approbation to even exist.

But as you seem to have thought a lot about the question I have a question for you: what would be the point of a bitcoin bank?
I mean, a fiat bank has a very simple purpose, making money, and a simple utility for most of its users: providing a stock and exchange system. Banks were created for that, you use a bank not for the interest rates but because you NEED an account in order to send and receive money, because no company will give you your wage in cash, no government will make it easy for you to pay your taxes with cash, and even if all that was possible you would still want to stock your money in a "safe deposit". Of course interest rates are a plus, but you would use banks even if they had 0% interest rates!

But bitcoin already allow all of that. So what would be the main goal of banks?

I have already answered that question

You seem to misunderstand what a Bitcoin bank would mean in practice. Most likely, it won't be a separate entity like web wallets are now but rather a service offered by regular banks (once they are allowed to make business with Bitcoin). Obviously, such a service could potentially include everything that web wallets are offering nowadays, and in addition to that, banks would offer services which they basically earn money with and which make them different from other financial institutions, for example, by loaning bitcoins at interest protected with real collateral

Well... Not so sure about why I would put my money in a bank for that...
They would be used for specific investments maybe, but who would put his money inside just to let it there? That would be stupid. No real benefit and you hand out your money to a private corporation which can do whatever it wants...

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Quote from: ABCbits on October 18, 2016, 11:51:47 AM

Recently, i often see discussion about Bitcoin Bank. More and more people come here and ask about bitcoin bank & surprisingly i see few user agree with this idea.
So, i would like to find out the percentage of user who agreed with this idea.

Honestly, i think this idea is stupid and worst idea that i've seen in my life. What do you think?
p.s. we don't talk about bitcoin debit card OR any centralized service which only ask name and email address.

The need of Bitcoin Bank is complete absurd!!
Ok, the main reason ppl deposit with bank-
1. To save their money (paper wallet does so in case of btc)
2. To get return (indeterminate nature of btc will not allow this function)
3. Remittances and transfers (can be done at greatest ease even now without banks)

So, no need at all!!

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Quote from: millgates on January 07, 2017, 07:12:20 PM

I think it is depend on what bitcoin bank offer to us, if there are some benefit of using it which better than current condition I will be agree, but if it just make another centralization, of course I do not agree with it.

Bitcoin bank idea seems to be the right choice for the need of reaching more and more users. Importantly due to the recent financial crisis in several countries bitcoin continued to support people with its good price and becoming a commodity with good storage value token even without the existence of bitcoin bank. Possibly if this continues, sure the price increase happens gradually over the entire year.

deisik

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Quote from: Shiroslullaby on January 07, 2017, 06:33:39 PM

For it to truly be a "bank" you would need some form of insurance against loss.
In the United States we have the FDIC which insures up to $100,000 of loss on any account

So without an FDIC a Bitcoin bank wouldn't be authentic or genuine?

The FDIC was established 1933 (as per Wiki), but banks had been operating over a hundred years prior to the introduction of the deposit insurance system (and I guess not all the US banks are part of it). Were these banks not real banks or what? I suspect there are quite a few countries where there is no local counterpart of the US FDIC (and the latter insures deposits up to $250,000). Does it mean that the banks in these countries are not true banks?

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Quote from: millgates on January 07, 2017, 07:12:20 PM

I think it is depend on what bitcoin bank offer to us, if there are some benefit of using it which better than current condition I will be agree, but if it just make another centralization, of course I do not agree with it.

Yes, but now without any bank bitcoin already easier for us. Hence why there should be a bank? In my opinion there will be no bank is willing to take risks to adopt bitcoin, especially in developing countries, its bitcoin users are still rare. And yes if the bank does not offer considerable advantages I think people prefer to use bitcoin without banks. Thank you

Dudeperfect

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Quote from: millgates on January 07, 2017, 07:12:20 PM

I think it is depend on what bitcoin bank offer to us, if there are some benefit of using it which better than current condition I will be agree, but if it just make another centralization, of course I do not agree with it.

Exactly, Right now there are two flows of opinions at the moment on this point. I would love to use bitcoin bank if it gives something more than the current situation and if it shows some potentials to help increasing bitcoin’s awareness and system. No one wants to keep their money with someone else if there is not return on that principle amount. Bank would provide services (like paying bills directly with bitcoin and many other features) so why not go for it? Of course, it should be optional.

lambdaE

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Quote from: millgates on January 07, 2017, 07:12:20 PM

I think it is depend on what bitcoin bank offer to us, if there are some benefit of using it which better than current condition I will be agree, but if it just make another centralization, of course I do not agree with it.

No there wont be any centralization and all transactions and savings would be anonymous and work like the way bitcoins do. Consider a site which is not controlled by anyone .. maybe satoshi can open something like that. Beyond the imaginations of common people.

deisik

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Quote from: richardsNY on January 07, 2017, 05:07:04 PM

Quote from: deisik on January 07, 2017, 12:44:14 PM

Quote from: richardsNY on January 07, 2017, 12:03:04 PM

The point is that people take the term Bitcoin bank far too serious. Never will such services stand up at the same level as banks do. It's simply impossible as governments can't allow anything that they have no control over to be supported. Mainly in current times where they heavily chase black money and financial support for terrorism. Plus the fact that they can't prove who owns what amount in Bitcoin. It adds up. No pro's, but plenty of con's.

Do you have a bank account yourself?

I have a dozen accounts opened for a dozen foreign currencies in just one bank including four unallocated bullion accounts (for gold, platinum, silver and palladium). I can receive, transfer and withdraw any of these currencies (excluding PM accounts, of course). Now tell me how can a local government control any foreign currency (let alone precious metals)? Does it somehow prevent banks from using these currencies as well as precious metals? In fact, I wouldn't be surprised in the least degree if one day the bank offered me to open a Bitcoin account in addition to the host of accounts that I already have

Of course I do have a bank account, several to be more precise. If you transfer whatever foreign currency per bank, then it just gets some numbers changed in the database of your bank and the receiving party. All this happens within the system where they can follow basically every of your steps. That's what I meant with control. As long as that is the case, you can move things as much as you want, but everything is being logged till a point where if something goes wrong, they know where to find you.

Obviously, I'm not talking about transferring a foreign currency "per bank", and I'm curious what made you think so in the first place. By that I mean that I can send some amount in a foreign currency to any bank in any country. When I open such an account, it has a foreign bank as a processor for such payments. But this is another jurisdiction where neither the local bank nor the Central bank of this country have no power altogether. Further, if I can withdraw this foreign currency through an ATM, it can't possibly pass as "all this happens within the system". As I get it, after I have cash in my hands, it is no longer within the "system", right? They know where to find me since my identity is known to them...

And how would it be different if I opened another account there, now in Bitcoin?

Topic: Do you agree with idea "Bitcoin bank" ? - page 78. (Read 142276 times)