Topic: Donetsk, Kharkov, Lugansk - way to Russia. - page 136. (Read 734725 times)

Now you are psychoanalyzing me?     That's a Marxist tactic, which is used to pathologize disagreement and avoid honest debate.  Let's stick to the facts, please.

I've backed up my claim (that Ukrainians have good reason to blame/resent Moscow for their troubles) with two irrefutable primary sources:

1) Alexander Solzhenitsyn - he served in the gulag with Ukrainians and understands the sources and depth their "grudge"
2) Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov - his own written words call for the extermination of the "kulak" farmers, which let to unthinkable tragedy

It's time for reactionary Russians to stop their attempts to whitewash the crimes of the USSR and stop taking personally their neighboring countries well-founded fears of domination by Moscow.

Bury the disgusting corpse of Lenin and cease worshiping him as a secular saint.  Rejoice with the rest of humanity when his (and Stalin's) statues are toppled by those whose ancestors were murdered, exiled, and otherwise oppressed by their totalitarianism.

This is not "occidental" propaganda; your Orthodox Slavic cousins in many countries, from Czech to Ukraine, agree he and his Soviet Empire are evil creatures best damned to Hell and not reflexively defended with well meaning but offensive historical revisionism.

I am happy the Russian speaking provinces have been able to vote for their desire to return to Russia, and hope a solution can be found to the difficult problems of that region.

However, if Putin overplays his hand the maneuver will backfire and we may find his nightmare of Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia, and the other FSU states joining the EU, etc. coming true sooner than later... 

I think that any unconditional belief is a sign of mental disfunction. Human should use his brain to make logical conclusions, to think about consequences of own choices etc. Unfortunately the most of "bitcoiners" have no idea that unconditional choice between fiat & bitcoin won't change anything.

There are no peaceful Abrahamic religions. Followers of judaism, islam or christianity could be peaceful though. Not because of their religion, but simply because they were initially peaceful and intelligent people.

I dont see religions such as islam or christianism as mental disfunctions, they are good humanist religions deep down, with a very peaceful message. On the other side, could be that talmud and zionism are ill conceived.

Before i found out about bitcoin i was already suspicious regarding our western political leaders and system. i travelled alot and met a whole bunch of people, who were very nice, despite their misery.

Never been to russia tho but i feel we are on the same page, and i think christianism could help alot to unite its people versus the western zionist shills, which i believe already caused a lot of pain for your people (marx, lenin, all that red mafia in the 90s, etc etc..)

In the end it's always been about religion imho. good vs evil. antichrist, apocalypse et al... its all been written long time ago ^^

Icebreaker, in your citation of Lenin, where does he say it applies to "Ukraine only"?

And about Solzhenicin. Was that from before he immigrated to US, during his US stay or after he returned to Russia? He became quite disillusioned with US teachings while staying in US, criticizing it so much and in the same way as he did USSR, that after a while he was no longer got invited to hold any talks. When he returned to Russia, he went the long way by train from the Pacific Ocean coast, and was not very impressed. And in Moscow he was criticizing the way Russia was heading under Yeltsin in US guidance.


Also, first you say that you'd take a testimony of a Ukrainian and not some Russian, and once I offer you an option of such testimony, you swipe it aside and say you will go by Solzhenicin's words, who is Russian. (By the way, the same "people of Ukraine" whose school books in history underwent heavy rewriting and editing over the last 20 years to represent them as the sole victims of USSR and to show Bandera as the national hero?)

So I repeat:

The Real Truth About USSR: Golodomor and Collectivization in Ukraine
http://futuristrendcast.wordpress.com/2014/06/12/the-real-truth-about-ussr-golodomor-and-collectivization-in-ukraine/
(And the author is not some random person, she has an impressive background of economical, historical and political works)

No they don't. The most of radical bitcoiners aren't better than far-right or far-left indoctrinated fools, because they're reacting instead of thinking.

Any attempt to make unconditional choice between fiat vs. bitcoin is like choosing between christianity and islam... Just an attempt to replace one mental disfunction with another without actually trying to evolve. No reasonable person will act in this way.

P.S. I'm sorry for so strong comparison if my statement offended someone.

I dont get it, i thought bitcoiners were more akin to think by themselves. By looking at all US and EU propaganda for the last half of century, it should not be too hard to get that they are just playing us: economically, financially and socially. Lets at least investigate alternatives shall we? Not saying putin is a hero, he has done pretty bad things back then in KGB, but hey, at least he is trying to balance the total BS the occidental world is imposing.

iCEBREAKER, Reacting is your problem... Reacting is always easier than thinking, even monkey or cat is capable of reacting. You choose an easier way, but it seems funny because humanity learned to think only after millions of years of simple reacting. It's interesting to observe such case of voluntary degradation.

It's better to get rid of reactionary way while it's not too late.

LAUGH-IN BREAK: THE ANATOMY OF A FAKE MASS MOVEMENT AMIDST THE INTENSIFICATION OF DE-DOLLARIZATION,


This is not about Ukraine but it is related because it is the same drama used by a collapsing power in many places, be it in Hongkong or Ukraine.

THis is about the current mass movement of students in HOngkong.

THis is supposed to be a worldwide mass action but the fact that it was another WEstern covert operation was not really hidden (purposedly done to supposedly demonstrate their power so they should be feared)- in fact, it was blatantly telegraphed, because the same gimmicks were used in all the other places. Plus of course, there was the supposed call for help from the White House- to make it appear that the US is still the "leader of the free world"  . Don't ask me what free world because even Americans are complaining Fascism has supplanted the previous credible democracy in the US.

 Let's annotate the usual gimmicks:

1. Students mass in Hongkong (note, most of Western covert operations involve students as the main attack force, students still rely on allowance so they are cheaper, be it in Taiwan, Hongkong, Venezuela, Ukraine, Manila, etc.)

2. The Western propaganda media went into overdrive, amplifying immediately a sense of crisis.

3. The usual financial gimmicks for the needed sense of impending doom. A bunch of college & high school students had a sudden mass action & the Hongkong stock market, the biggest in Asia, reflected sudden negative movements. THis is the most common gimmick of the Anglo-Zionist-American empire- because they have large financial tentacles, they can immediately execute "negative movements" like currency outflow to generate a picture of panic. The concerted action of the contrived stock market dips & dire prognostications from the WEstern propaganda press is supposed to create panic, which will amplify the supposed growing people's resistance. NOTE: this was the same gimmick done to the Moscow Stock Exchange whenever a sanction round was done to Russia. But this is mainly for propagnada- this is irrelevant because stock market changes are just snapshots, & they can't sustain the changes for a long time when inevitably the real markets reassert themselves.

4. Social Media. Suddenly, there are hundred thousands of supporters in Facebook, etc. Every Chinese anywhere in the world are  proud they are the richest country in the world & suddenly, they are looking for help in the now bankrupt, already fascistic US  .

5. This is the most laughable: suddenly, nearly two hundred thousand have petitioned the White HOuse to support the Hongkong students      . That drama is supposed to telegraph the US is still the leader of the free world, as if sane people will still need a bankrupt power to lead anything.

6. Yellow Ribbon. This is the giveaway that they are not hiding anything. This is another color revolution (attempted, at least  ). The Yellow Ribbon is the theme of the movement in Hongkong,  the Yellow Ribbon of the People POwer Revolution in Manila or the Sunflower in Taiwan or like the Orange Revolution in Ukraine.


Many more.

WHY IS THIS LAUGHABLE?

BECAUSE OF TWO THINGS:

1. TOMORROW, THE YUAN WILL BE CONVERTIBLE TO EURO ALREADY

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-29/europe-china-start-direct-trading-euros-yuan-de-dollarization-expands

2. THE SHANGHAI GOLD EXCHANGE HAS OPENED


The Russia-China De-dollarization... the Eurasian Century... is unstoppable... and somebody is desperate...



 

Thanks, but I'll take Solzhenitsyn's testimony over some random internet article.

Quibbling about the exact number/location/nationality/ethnicity of Ukrainians and others murdered by starvation doesn't change the facts, much less the opinions of modern people.  Whether it was 6, 7, or 10 million nothing will wash the blood from Russian hands until they stop dissembling, confess their sins, and repent.

But for the record, vilification of "kulak" farmers began long before Stalin, where the hateful meme of class warfare cumulated into its horrible final form of genocide:


Here, look at the words written by the beast himself.  Own them and choke on them as you swell with pride in your empire's history of naked internal and external aggression:




Like Walter Duranty, you apologists for Soviet mass murder of its own and other countries' citizens are Moscow's useful idiots!  For shame.

Why the long neck?

I think that you don't have a clue that an overwhelming part of victims (more than 90%) was presented by the residents of southern and eastern regions of Ukrainian republic, while central and western regions survived this time without so dramatical losses of population. These regions (kharkiv, donetsk, dniepropetrovsk, kherson, luhansk) were transferrend into the Ukrainian republic in 1918 and there were less than 1% of Ukrainian population. Which centuries are you talking about? Are you writing from the pocket universe?


Industrialization was a goal of leninism? REALLY? AHAHAHAHA!!1

I see that your indoctrination is irreversible, but I'll try to repeat this 4th time especially for you. Industrialization was a goal of stalinism, this idea even not existed while Lenin was alive. It was proposed 4 years after his death as the replacement for Lenin's mixed economy. And former members of the Lenin's government, such as Bukharin, were in strong opposition so they were exterminated under various excuses.

It was russian people who died, millions of them. If it was a genocide, then it was a genocide of russian people on the ukrainian territory. Simple living under ukrainian jurisdiction doesn't make them ukrainians, what a surprise. And actually ukrainians don't have any right to claim they were exclusive victims here, they have usurped this status.

I want to add the following highly-relevant article on Golodomor as a supplementary reading to Balthazar's excellent answer. The article examines the phenomenon and the propaganda around it in great detail:

The Real Truth About USSR: Golodomor and Collectivization in Ukraine
http://futuristrendcast.wordpress.com/2014/06/12/the-real-truth-about-ussr-golodomor-and-collectivization-in-ukraine/


So, all the more reason for you to read the above article.

Oh, and a bit of my own family history. My family experienced the consequences of collectivisation and golodomor first hand - in Russia. On my mother's line, my great-grandfather was a medium-sized peasant, "kulak", who had part of is property collectivised, and during the famine years my great-grandmother died of starvation, while my grandmother and her siblings barely managed to survive. It was in Russia, in Southern Siberia. So, you see, Ukrainians don't have a unique right to claim they are sole victims of the Soviet experiment, as Western-induced propaganda would like them to believe.

6 million? really?!!



i thought there were not ukrainian anyway

IN A POST-WESTERN FUTURE: RUSSIA SHOULD REOCCUPY THE EUROPEAN POST-SOVIET STATES

Frankly, those supposed grievances from the former-Soviet states will never end because precisely, PAST emotion is the one being targeted & stoked by provocateurs to create a "convenient" hatred on Russia which they can manipulate to suit their goals like in the Maidan comedy revolution. That means, the prevention of  the development of an alternative future because hatred is always called up barring the way. It would be a mistake for Russia to be defensive. The world is changing, the formerly dominant WEstern civilization is collapsing & it would be more practical to see the future from the parameters of the emerging world. Meaning, change the current rules which the bankrupt West used to dominate the world. Western democracy is fake- it's just a hypocritical elitist drama which  continually divides the population with various wedge issues like feminism (man vs. woman), gay rights (hetero vs. homo), abortion (religious vs. secular), etc., all emotional,  just so they distract everybody else while they strengthen their grip on power and wealth. Look where we are now- the US Constition is violated by even the US President, the top 1% getting richer while the people are getting poorer (1 out of 5 children in the US are in poverty), freedom of the press is nothing but a propaganda machine, etc. WE need another way of tackling things.

The present Russia need not defend itself, it should set the new rules instead. The breakup of the USSR is long gone & it is now one of the major anchors of the emerging new world civilization. It will always be the biggest and richest in its part of the world and emotional issues are not an excuse for the small states to continually cultivate hatred and seed future destabilization in the region. Russia should reoocupy them instead. It can use the US argument that Crimean independence is illegal because the Ukrainians never had a referendum. Ergo, UKraine is still a part of Russia because the Russians never voted to let it go. So with the Baltics, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Moldova & Georgia. I think it would be more practical to let go of the friendly Central Asian states.

I think, the Asian strong state model will be the new parameter of the future- like Hungarian PM Orban said, he likes more the strong government model of Singapore and Russia. Include that of China.

 

We were not discussing some obviously bogus claims about "200000 years ago."  Why do you need to bring up random absurdities as a distraction?  Is it because you are unable to explain why Ukrainians wouldn't know the facts of their own history, especially from the last 100 years?  That is called a 'red herring' and is a well known hallmark of propaganda.

I will trust the people of Ukraine to know the facts of their own history, especially from the last 100 years, much more than than the biased POV of those who murdered them by the millions.

They know, as do most of the educated world outside of Russian apologists, the famine was the result of Russian tyranny in the forms of involuntary collectivization and forced grain exports.  Ukraine didn't wish to be part of USSR, they were taken by force.

Ukraine fed itself for centuries without industrialization, which was a goal of Leninism.  They have every right to resent Moscow's regional hegemony.  It was not the Ukrainians who declared the "kulak" farmers to be "enemies of the people."  Russians did that to them, and this was the result:



I'm sorry your family also suffered from Soviet totalitarianism, but you don't need to lecture me on the civil war, NEP, etc.  I got an A in my Russian History class, TYVM.   

Are you saying that Stolzhenitzen doesn't know WTF he's talking about when he admits Russia must repay Ukraine for the brutality and injustice they have endured?

Stolzhenitzen is an authority, with a Nobel Prize to prove it.  No wonder you conveniently ignore the two quotes of his I cited.

You are a great coder and extremely intelligent, but your patriotism should not override your appreciation of the truth.

When you blame others for the Holdomor, you sound exactly like the Turks denying their genocide of the Armenians, and the Japanese who deny their war crimes in China and many other places.

Please do not keep yourself in such ugly company, because I would like to hold you in high esteem as an honored fellow brother of the Bitcoin!   

It's still correct even in this case because there is ~25% drop of Lithuanian population since 1990.

Then you're fooling yourself. Did you ever tried to read ukrainian history textbook? I recommend you to try it, the most funny fantasy novel I read ever. "Ukrainian civilization was formed 200000 years ago" and many more other funny things.

If you want to hear the propaganda then ask somebody else. If you are disagree with historical facts then provide evidence of opposite statement. Isn't this quite simple?

Now you're spreading propaganda, sorry. Collectivization was only a minor factor there. The major factor is a refusal of gold payments by the US & UK combined with decision to continue industrialization despite this issue. There was enough grain to feed the people, but this grain was exported as payment for the goods which were necessary for the industrialization. Just check the volumes of grain export in 1929-1933.

I know what I'm talking about because my own grand-grand-father was robbed and killed by bolsheviks... Then almost all his family members were executed. Two decades later my grandmother's father was executed during Stalin's purges. Then she and her brother have spent a few decades in exile. It's OK to blame Lenin and Stalin for their crimes because they deserve that. But the problem is that they aren't blaming the bolshevik overlords, they're just blaming everybody except themselves for everything. These things are completely different...

Sorry, but I'm actually getting tired of that... You're constantly confusing the times of the civil war, new economic policy and collectivization. I strongly suggest you to stop reading your "sources", start reading the books and thinking.

The Civil War: 1917 – 1922
Destruction of the empire, multi-party war. Dekulakization, Prodrazvyorstka, etc.

Monetary reform: 1922 – 1924
Resolving hyperinflation through switching to golden backed money.

New Economic Policy (includes the monetary reform): 1922 - 1928
Withdrawal of the food expropriation policy (aka Prodrazvyorstka);
Implementation of the mixed economy: state-owned heavy industrial and banking sectors, the rest of economy is presented by the private owned organizations;
Attracting the foreign investments.

Collectivization and industrialization: 1928 - 1940
Gradual withdrawal of private ownership for the foreign-owned organizations;
Confiscation of private property owned by the locals;
Forced collectivization nd industrialization;
Great purges.

I think that you know what I mean.

Seems, he is from EU (Lithuania).

No more news about Malaysian aircraft?

New Document Leak Reveals Scope of Collaboration Between Moscow and Donetsk





Anonymous Ukrainian hackers have leaked a cache of documents revealing the interactions between separatists in eastern Ukrainian and a Russian far-right political party. Among the seemingly endless bureaucratic documents, a few hidden gems reveal plans for a fuel delivery network between Russia and the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic (DNR), as well as an elaborate political campaign.

Ukrainian media outlets say Pushilin’s scanned passport is a smoking gun—proof that Russia is working with the separatists. The image, however, is only circumstantial evidence. A scanned passport photo doesn't necessarily prove anything, though a reverse Google image search reveals that the image taken from the LDPR servers did not appear online until two days ago.

http://globalvoicesonline.org/2014/09/29/russia-ukriane-doc-leak-ldpr/

I will trust the people of Ukraine to know the facts of their own history, not jingoistic 'Great Mother Russia can do no wrong' propaganda.

You are right that Ukraine was not alone in suffering from the communist collectivization experiments.  Yes, many died in neighboring states.  But that does not diminish the right of Ukrainians to blame their unwanted Bolshevik overlords for the disaster.

Fed by the 'kulak' farmers, Ukraine had been self-sufficient for centuries.  It is a huge fertile place, and not dependent on trade to feed itself.  So blaming "sanctions" for the famine is not a reasonable explanation.  That is flimsy, revisionist 'Russia can do no wrong' propaganda.

While our common enemies (the oligarchs of Moscow, New York, and London) profited, the people of the US did what they could to help our suffering fellow western civilization:  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/introduction/famine/

If you believe the rosy production reports from the time of Lenin's rule, I have some oceanfront property in Mongolia which may interest you.  You know what happened to anyone filing a less-than-suburb production report?  They were taken out and shot, or sent to Siberia.

Speaking of Siberia, Solzhenitsyn testified to the validity of his Ukrainian friends' grudge against Russia:

Furthermore, he says the 'gift' of provinces was a mockery of proper government: