Author

Topic: [DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated - page 363. (Read 1059181 times)

hero member
Activity: 720
Merit: 500
...Although I personally do tend towards altruism, I believe that an economic system that depends on altruism will not in the long run be sustainable.  For it to work in the long run, it has to work just fine when the majority of the participants are for the most part looking out for their own interests.  I'm not talking about survival of the fittest or dog eat dog, just people going along trying to better their lives and doing what's best for them while still being generally ethical.  The reality is that this is how most people operate, so you want your currency to work for them and still accomplish the overall goals.
I do not personally trend towards altruism. I trend towards maximising returns or potential for returns. Devcoin is not altruistic because it requires purchases to support any non-zero price of dvc offered. I doubt anybody's buying dvc out of altruism.

So this again is where we part company in general understanding. I think it is you and others that are selling your own returns and potential short through a desperation to accrue any immediate gain, to the cost of greater benefit in the medium/long term. Up to you obviously, but such choices do impact the rest of us in a similar manner so it will continue to annoy me - particularly when any stated rationale (mutuality/ignorance) does not remain in line with effects and actions.

You're right that it's no crime etc...it just makes no sense to do so and then defend it from any perceived logical standpoint of mutual benefit. It would make more sense to just take the money and run, or take the money and never say another thing. A lot of people have done that and good luck to them - what they haven't done is to convince themselves of any mutual merit of this and then try to defend it.

If the current system continues there will eventually be no buyers. But if people keep buying devcoins to pay out to a small self-selecting group of recipients then I will have been wrong.
legendary
Activity: 2548
Merit: 1054
CPU Web Mining 🕸️ on webmining.io
http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=where_to_spend_your_devcoins

All the current devcoin businesses.  If I forgot something, please tell me!

iGotSpots.com/dvc still gets you to the pages you can spend them on. Just our main page changed
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 508
Is this a one-time thing? Like, once you have a rating, it's permanent? If so, I hope I get a nice rater.  Lips sealed  I research and proofread all my work... still a bit scary though!  Smiley


For what it's worth, I was in charge of vetting you out for this round, and you got a huge +1 from me. I really don't think you'll have any issues.

Thanks!  Cheesy

I apparently glossed over this section on the link posted by Unthinkingbit:

Quote
Each writer gets up to eight raters. The writer's rating is the median of all their ratings.
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
Devtome now has ratings! If you're a devcoin admin, or are a developer on the bitcoin share list or the devcoin share list, please sign up to rate writers by adding yourself to the rater list:
http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=devtome_rater#raters

Raters will get to vote in this round, round 28. It will take several days for raters to sign up, get their forms and rate, which will go over the cutoff day for this round, but these ratings will still be in the round 28 group. Once I have the votes, I'll update the devtome script for rounds 29 and after to take the ratings into account, with equal weighting to popularity.

Raters get three shares for voting and up to two extra shares for comments, for a maximum of five shares. Comments get 0.4 shares each, rounded down, to a maximum of 2 shares. Assuming a typical share value of 15$, and an average of four shares, that works out to 60 $/page. A rating page has up to twelve writers to rate, most of the time it will be twelve. Alyssa reported that filling out the form with a few comments took 45 minutes. The typical hourly rate is 60 $/page / 45 minutes/page * 60 minutes/hour = 80 $/hour.

The rate is very high to give the raters extra reason to reject bribes.

Because the rate is so high, rating is a perk. This perk is offered only to the people who help the community a lot, devcoin admins and open source developers.

More info is on the rater page:
http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=devtome_rater


This is great to hear and I hope it leads to a higher quality of writing on Devtome.  It does also make me slightly nervous about the ratings.  I published two books onto Devtome, which I put a huge amount of work into and haven't published anywhere else.  They are also much longer than the usual articles so I don't know if the raters are expected to read them all the way though or if they should just read a few thousand words as a sample?

I promoted one of my Devtome books (Walking Upright:  The Appalachian Trail in Virginia) on a hiking forum and it went down really well, people have been enjoying reading it.  I'd feel really bad if it got low ratings... Here's the forum where I posted about it:

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?98464-Published-my-AT-book-quot-Walking-Upright-quot-for-free-read-it-here
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1007
I've been reading some concerns about the rating system, and I can see where they're coming from. I think an ideal solution would be to not rate the articles themselves, but the writers. Someone who is consistently putting out good content is valuable. Someone who put out one good piece and the rest is crap is not (sorry if this is taken offensive).

Some people revise their work. I've revised some of mine as well. I think the amount of work it would take to keep on top of each piece of writing and keep accurate ratings is greater than it is worth. Instead, we should be paying attention to each writer and what they output.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
Google/YouTube
Devtome now has ratings! If you're a devcoin admin, or are a developer on the bitcoin share list or the devcoin share list, please sign up to rate writers by adding yourself to the rater list:
http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=devtome_rater#raters

Raters will get to vote in this round, round 28. It will take several days for raters to sign up, get their forms and rate, which will go over the cutoff day for this round, but these ratings will still be in the round 28 group. Once I have the votes, I'll update the devtome script for rounds 29 and after to take the ratings into account, with equal weighting to popularity.

Raters get three shares for voting and up to two extra shares for comments, for a maximum of five shares. Comments get 0.4 shares each, rounded down, to a maximum of 2 shares. Assuming a typical share value of 15$, and an average of four shares, that works out to 60 $/page. A rating page has up to twelve writers to rate, most of the time it will be twelve. Alyssa reported that filling out the form with a few comments took 45 minutes. The typical hourly rate is 60 $/page / 45 minutes/page * 60 minutes/hour = 80 $/hour.

The rate is very high to give the raters extra reason to reject bribes.

Because the rate is so high, rating is a perk. This perk is offered only to the people who help the community a lot, devcoin admins and open source developers.

More info is on the rater page:
http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=devtome_rater


Will rating effect writers earnings negatively in any way?

Also, if an article is rated, then you add to it and re-edit. Does it get rated again. Because I am writing a history book, and as I am not reading history in a linear order, I will not only be adding things, but adding to things, and maybe completely redoing entire sections.

And most of my focus will go to that one page for the next few rounds.
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1007
Devtome now has ratings!
...

Please, If You don't mind, could You add observations/advices to the rating system.
(not only reason for down-voting)
I mean, to guide a mediocre writer towards the envisioned goals, and not only to put good or bad marks...

Sorry if already planned, no way to know it, peeked at given page

Raters are encouraged to put comments, and they get paid for them:
http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=devtome_rater#earnings

does a rater just pick one article at random per user?

The rater.py script picks one article at random for the rater. The rater is rating the writer, the article link is there so they can quickly go to an article. It's up to the rater how they rate the writer.

Quote
what is the difference in rating criteria for, say, a long and well-researched paper, vs. a short blog? both may be very well-written, but i'm not sure that they would be rated the same. any thoughts on that?

It's only for the quality of the work, if they're both well written they should be rated the same. The rating is used for the earnings multiplier, and that times the word count gives the number of shares.


Is this a one-time thing? Like, once you have a rating, it's permanent? If so, I hope I get a nice rater.  Lips sealed  I research and proofread all my work... still a bit scary though!  Smiley


For what it's worth, I was in charge of vetting you out for this round, and you got a huge +1 from me. I really don't think you'll have any issues.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 508
Devtome now has ratings!
...

Please, If You don't mind, could You add observations/advices to the rating system.
(not only reason for down-voting)
I mean, to guide a mediocre writer towards the envisioned goals, and not only to put good or bad marks...

Sorry if already planned, no way to know it, peeked at given page

Raters are encouraged to put comments, and they get paid for them:
http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=devtome_rater#earnings

does a rater just pick one article at random per user?

The rater.py script picks one article at random for the rater. The rater is rating the writer, the article link is there so they can quickly go to an article. It's up to the rater how they rate the writer.

Quote
what is the difference in rating criteria for, say, a long and well-researched paper, vs. a short blog? both may be very well-written, but i'm not sure that they would be rated the same. any thoughts on that?

It's only for the quality of the work, if they're both well written they should be rated the same. The rating is used for the earnings multiplier, and that times the word count gives the number of shares.


Is this a one-time thing? Like, once you have a rating, it's permanent? If so, I hope I get a nice rater.  Lips sealed  I research and proofread all my work... still a bit scary though!  Smiley
newbie
Activity: 43
Merit: 0
One more question (also related to rating):
Are edits allowed?
 - before knowing of rating: if massive growth (1000 to 3000 words i.e. 200%) could trigger recalculate?
(it might be also SEO beneficial)
 - knowing of rating: to improve it - for benefit of both writer and reader.
(not necessarily paid for improvement)

legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1005
Devtome now has ratings!
...

Please, If You don't mind, could You add observations/advices to the rating system.
(not only reason for down-voting)
I mean, to guide a mediocre writer towards the envisioned goals, and not only to put good or bad marks...

Sorry if already planned, no way to know it, peeked at given page

Raters are encouraged to put comments, and they get paid for them:
http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=devtome_rater#earnings

does a rater just pick one article at random per user?

The rater.py script picks one article at random for the rater. The rater is rating the writer, the article link is there so they can quickly go to an article. It's up to the rater how they rate the writer.

Quote
what is the difference in rating criteria for, say, a long and well-researched paper, vs. a short blog? both may be very well-written, but i'm not sure that they would be rated the same. any thoughts on that?

It's only for the quality of the work, if they're both well written they should be rated the same. The rating is used for the earnings multiplier, and that times the word count gives the number of shares.

Sorry for the double post but it's hard to navigate on mobile.

There are two earnings multipliers then?  And is there a place we can view our current multiplier?
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1005
Devtome now has ratings! If you're a devcoin admin, or are a developer on the bitcoin share list or the devcoin share list, please sign up to rate writers by adding yourself to the rater list.
...

The latest articles page has been getting a bit cluttered, would it be possible for you to dictate more admins to help facilitate the process of categorization?  I've done a few articles but it's a bit overwhelming
hero member
Activity: 935
Merit: 1015
Devtome now has ratings!
...

Please, If You don't mind, could You add observations/advices to the rating system.
(not only reason for down-voting)
I mean, to guide a mediocre writer towards the envisioned goals, and not only to put good or bad marks...

Sorry if already planned, no way to know it, peeked at given page

Raters are encouraged to put comments, and they get paid for them:
http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=devtome_rater#earnings

does a rater just pick one article at random per user?

The rater.py script picks one article at random for the rater. The rater is rating the writer, the article link is there so they can quickly go to an article. It's up to the rater how they rate the writer.

Quote
what is the difference in rating criteria for, say, a long and well-researched paper, vs. a short blog? both may be very well-written, but i'm not sure that they would be rated the same. any thoughts on that?

It's only for the quality of the work, if they're both well written they should be rated the same. The rating is used for the earnings multiplier, and that times the word count gives the number of shares.
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 500
Devtome now has ratings! If you're a devcoin admin, or are a developer on the bitcoin share list or the devcoin share list, please sign up to rate writers by adding yourself to the rater list:
http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=devtome_rater#raters

Raters will get to vote in this round, round 28. It will take several days for raters to sign up, get their forms and rate, which will go over the cutoff day for this round, but these ratings will still be in the round 28 group. Once I have the votes, I'll update the devtome script for rounds 29 and after to take the ratings into account, with equal weighting to popularity.

Raters get three shares for voting and up to two extra shares for comments, for a maximum of five shares. Comments get 0.4 shares each, rounded down, to a maximum of 2 shares. Assuming a typical share value of 15$, and an average of four shares, that works out to 60 $/page. A rating page has up to twelve writers to rate, most of the time it will be twelve. Alyssa reported that filling out the form with a few comments took 45 minutes. The typical hourly rate is 60 $/page / 45 minutes/page * 60 minutes/hour = 80 $/hour.

The rate is very high to give the raters extra reason to reject bribes.

Because the rate is so high, rating is a perk. This perk is offered only to the people who help the community a lot, devcoin admins and open source developers.

More info is on the rater page:
http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=devtome_rater


does a rater just pick one article at random per user? what is the difference in rating criteria for, say, a long and well-researched paper, vs. a short blog? both may be very well-written, but i'm not sure that they would be rated the same. any thoughts on that?
newbie
Activity: 43
Merit: 0
Devtome now has ratings!
...

Please, If You don't mind, could You add observations/advices to the rating system.
(not only reason for down-voting)
I mean, to guide a mediocre writer towards the envisioned goals, and not only to put good or bad marks...

Sorry if already planned, no way to know it, peeked at given page
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1029
I could offer my opinions all I want, but there isn't really a process that I'm aware of where my opinion could go from me spouting off to an actual change in the way the Devcoin project works.  All I can think of right now is that if someone has a concern about how the payment system is structured, he should express that concern to UnthinkingBit, because so far, he's the only one I know of (and please inform me of other genuine decision makers that I may be missing) who has the authority to make any sort of change to any aspect of the Devcoin project.

With that said, my opinion is that UnthinkingBit should proceed with what is truly going to be most beneficial to the Devcoin project as a whole, even if that means that in the short term I won't get paid as well as a writer.  Once such a decision is made, then I reevaluate my contribution and see if I continue as a writer.  If I choose not to, it's no hard feelings or anything, just moving on.

I can't be any more specific than that because of the gap in my technical knowledge which I mentioned before.

As for my opinion on the proportion of payment writers get, it really depends on what the actual goal of the Devtome is.  If the point is to get Devcoins into as many hands as possible, as in bring them into wider circulation, then I think that system is brilliant.  There's a relatively easy, straightforward way for fairly intelligent but otherwise ordinary people to get lots of Devcoins in their wallets.  The fact that it favors good writers (and the type of writers who most benefit are those who write consistently and prolifically), means that the writers will likely write about Devcoins not just on the Devtome but wherever else they might be writing.  Pair a good writer with a good marketer and you will get the word out.  If the goal is to develop all these cool techie things, then obviously you'd want to make it a sweet deal for the programmers and developers of those things.

Come to think of it, the bounty issue could be solved very easily in any number of ways, one of them being that for certain techie projects that are considered paramount (such as fixing the code to keep DVC on mcxNOW, assuming that will satisfy RS), the bounty isn't a certain number of shares but a percentage of the total pool, or just a plain amount, for example, 10% of generated shares or 18,000,000 DVC, sort of a flip side of limiting the Devtome pool to a certain percentage.

One thing that I would propose is that for those who are interested, one or more proven writers can be "assigned" to each techie project.  I'm not the first to notice that often programmers suffer from an inability to communicate the significance of what they are doing to average nontechnical people such as myself.  Put a writer on that project and give that writer access to the programmers for interviewing, and set up some way that they both benefit from the ensuing article.  Make it worth the programmer's while because I'm sure it will try his patience to have to break it down into baby steps for the writer (probably more than once!), and make it worth the writer's while for having to take the extra step of interviewing the programmer and then putting all the information into a nice engaging story.  There are probably a number of approaches that can be taken for compensation.

I think that one of the issues going on is a huge disconnect between the writers who are nontechnical and just coming on board and the programmers who have been doing cool stuff for a while.  The word about the importance of what the programmers are doing is not getting out because the programmers aren't describing it in plain English.  The writers don't write about these projects because they don't know the first thing about them.  Put the two together and you will have some decent promotional material about each project which can then be widely disseminated to the benefit of writer, programmer, and project.

It's really a matter of prioritizing and then incentivizing what is determined to be the priority.  I'm totally cool with bouncing around ideas like this.  I just don't think it's fair to take out one's frustrations with not liking the current system onto the people who are taking advantage of it.  It's not a crime to make the most of a situation that benefits you, even if that system is for the time being majorly rigged in your favor.  I will definitely continue to make the most of the current system and yes I will be the first to say it's been my lucky break.  But I'm not particularly attached to it going on like this forever, and if/when it changes I'll either adapt or move on, and I'll be better off economically for it as long as I can steer clear of the scams.

Although I personally do tend towards altruism, I believe that an economic system that depends on altruism will not in the long run be sustainable.  For it to work in the long run, it has to work just fine when the majority of the participants are for the most part looking out for their own interests.  I'm not talking about survival of the fittest or dog eat dog, just people going along trying to better their lives and doing what's best for them while still being generally ethical.  The reality is that this is how most people operate, so you want your currency to work for them and still accomplish the overall goals.

Weisoq, I don't think you understand where I'm coming from here/..
I’m not a Devcoin coder, developer or activist either. I first arrived at this site and devtome a couple of months before you did. However we're both able to form intelligent, informed conclusions about the pros/cons of several basic aspects of supply and demand.

Your general points - as I think I’ve made clear I’m not apportioning any blame on you or anyone else in particular, only onto the system. I highlighted some element of a process for you only because it made a point and I was replying to you. That ‘writers’ broadly are being scapegoated is because that is what is indeed to blame - 75% + related shares of dvc go to devtome writers.

I’m annoyed at the general apathy and shrugging by those accruing most monetary benefit from the system, to the cost of everybody else. That mostly seems to be devtome writers - if it was something else I would direct my frustrations elsewhere. You're correct in your implications that I could instead just direct all my grumbling at Unthinkingbit but I guess I hoped all those involved would have an interest in finding a better way forward - and I suspect or at least assumed he may think similarly - if he doesn't then I guess he knows my view by now. I have made a point of not getting personal at all with anybody with regards to writings/particular efforts, although I’ve spent a lot of time on devtome so of course I have views, but that is not the point to me - there's nothing fundamentally wrong with devtome only in how it impacts upon the wider Devcoin project.

You refer to mutuality as if it’s something you’ve considered and concluded upon as balanced - I just don’t see where such benefits exist. What ‘value’ do I add to Devcoin in posting writings on devtome? There’s value is somebody reads it as original, enjoys it, shares it, buys or spreads the word about Devcoin equivalent to that earned from it. Otherwise it’s a one-way trade or a skewed trade.

So what also annoys me is when those benefiting from a skewed incentive structure then pronounce the mutual benefit to the concept of the status-quo, a continuation. For every share that say I earn, that diminishes somebody else’s reward. That’s just the way it works - and that's fine but in my opinion that needs to be accounted for by being able to justify greater relative value. I can't see how/where that's even been considered.

The issue I think you miss is that it’s not really the ‘client’ paying you - it’s me, him, her and everybody else that has, could have or will have Devcoins. You are one of the decsion-makers because you have the ability to offer opinion, act and transact to the benefit or detriment of devcoin. Electing to hide behind the defence of a particular professional artist-client relationship while in full knowledge of the costs to a viable continuity of such a relationship is I think slightly disingenuous, and from what I’ve read and heard of your opinion not in line with your general outlook.

However, regardless of my view it is only my view and not necessarily that of others. Like you I also have to make a decision as to whether or not it's still beneficial to me to continue, so thanks for sticking your head above the parapet and building on the discussion.
hero member
Activity: 935
Merit: 1015
Devtome now has ratings! If you're a devcoin admin, or are a developer on the bitcoin share list or the devcoin share list, please sign up to rate writers by adding yourself to the rater list:
http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=devtome_rater#raters

Raters will get to vote in this round, round 28. It will take several days for raters to sign up, get their forms and rate, which will go over the cutoff day for this round, but these ratings will still be in the round 28 group. Once I have the votes, I'll update the devtome script for rounds 29 and after to take the ratings into account, with equal weighting to popularity.

Raters get three shares for voting and up to two extra shares for comments, for a maximum of five shares. Comments get 0.4 shares each, rounded down, to a maximum of 2 shares. Assuming a typical share value of 15$, and an average of four shares, that works out to 60 $/page. A rating page has up to twelve writers to rate, most of the time it will be twelve. Alyssa reported that filling out the form with a few comments took 45 minutes. The typical hourly rate is 60 $/page / 45 minutes/page * 60 minutes/hour = 80 $/hour.

The rate is very high to give the raters extra reason to reject bribes.

Because the rate is so high, rating is a perk. This perk is offered only to the people who help the community a lot, devcoin admins and open source developers.

More info is on the rater page:
http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=devtome_rater
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1005
http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=where_to_spend_your_devcoins

All the current devcoin businesses.  If I forgot something, please tell me!
hero member
Activity: 720
Merit: 500
Weisoq, I don't think you understand where I'm coming from here/..
I’m not a Devcoin coder, developer or activist either. I first arrived at this site and devtome a couple of months before you did. However we're both able to form intelligent, informed conclusions about the pros/cons of several basic aspects of supply and demand.

Your general points - as I think I’ve made clear I’m not apportioning any blame on you or anyone else in particular, only onto the system. I highlighted some element of a process for you only because it made a point and I was replying to you. That ‘writers’ broadly are being scapegoated is because that is what is indeed to blame - 75% + related shares of dvc go to devtome writers.

I’m annoyed at the general apathy and shrugging by those accruing most monetary benefit from the system, to the cost of everybody else. That mostly seems to be devtome writers - if it was something else I would direct my frustrations elsewhere. You're correct in your implications that I could instead just direct all my grumbling at Unthinkingbit but I guess I hoped all those involved would have an interest in finding a better way forward - and I suspect or at least assumed he may think similarly - if he doesn't then I guess he knows my view by now. I have made a point of not getting personal at all with anybody with regards to writings/particular efforts, although I’ve spent a lot of time on devtome so of course I have views, but that is not the point to me - there's nothing fundamentally wrong with devtome only in how it impacts upon the wider Devcoin project.

You refer to mutuality as if it’s something you’ve considered and concluded upon as balanced - I just don’t see where such benefits exist. What ‘value’ do I add to Devcoin in posting writings on devtome? There’s value is somebody reads it as original, enjoys it, shares it, buys or spreads the word about Devcoin equivalent to that earned from it. Otherwise it’s a one-way trade or a skewed trade.

So what also annoys me is when those benefiting from a skewed incentive structure then pronounce the mutual benefit to the concept of the status-quo, a continuation. For every share that say I earn, that diminishes somebody else’s reward. That’s just the way it works - and that's fine but in my opinion that needs to be accounted for by being able to justify greater relative value. I can't see how/where that's even been considered.

The issue I think you miss is that it’s not really the ‘client’ paying you - it’s me, him, her and everybody else that has, could have or will have Devcoins. You are one of the decsion-makers because you have the ability to offer opinion, act and transact to the benefit or detriment of devcoin. Electing to hide behind the defence of a particular professional artist-client relationship while in full knowledge of the costs to a viable continuity of such a relationship is I think slightly disingenuous, and from what I’ve read and heard of your opinion not in line with your general outlook.

However, regardless of my view it is only my view and not necessarily that of others. Like you I also have to make a decision as to whether or not it's still beneficial to me to continue, so thanks for sticking your head above the parapet and building on the discussion.
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1005
We have a rating system, I believe.  We could use that.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
Google/YouTube
is there a thread for active dvc bounties? this subforum is such an eyesore, a cursory glance didn't turn anything up. it seems to me that much of the issue surrounding devtome would be greatly mitigated by some of the other projects (mentioned above) coming together. what sort of incentives is the devcoin community providing to see that these projects happen? how can we improve on that?  Smiley

I really think there should be, I know there is a thread about possible bounties.
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