Ethereum: 2nd gen cryptocurrency with contract programming, "dagger" hashing - page 22.

vlight

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Quote from: BldSwtTrs on January 15, 2014, 05:58:30 PM

Quote from: vlight on January 15, 2014, 05:01:27 PM

What is the point of measuring Ether's ROI in terms of BTC? Why not just measure in terms of fiat, or gold? Why choose a volatile BTC?

Because a lot of people plan to invest in BTC. And there is an opportunity cost.

If Ether underperformed BTC, it's make no economic sense to convert BTC into Ether.

Ok. I view that as investing with/using BTC, not in BTC. BTC is just a tool to invest in.

The fact is that neither you or i know the future. BTC may be a better investment, but who knows? You may also invest in some other project which will outperform both btc and ether. Then following that logic it makes no economic sense to invest in both Ethereum and BTC.

Crestington

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It's over complicated and will run into problems but people will buy into it because they think complicated is better.

You should start with a simple robust system that keeps all investment in the foundation and adjust fees when updating the blockchain, you can only guess that your system will work flawlessly.

td services

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black swan hunter

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on January 15, 2014, 05:42:12 PM

Quote from: td services on January 15, 2014, 05:28:38 PM

Funny, I can't seem to get anyone to admit that investment was ended ended early in NXT or cancelled in eMunie to prevent further dilution of existing investors, though it is obvious that this is the case.

Aye, that's funny. I suspect people have another opinion and just think that u r trolling them.

It's been my experience that when people try to ignore or dodge around an issue, and accuse the person questioning them of trolling, that it's because it's the truth.

Sorry to other people reading this discussion as it's tangential to Etherium, but the opportunity arose to confront the person responsible.

It does highlight the importance of sticking with a plan in a funding round once it is announced. NXT has made an enemy where it didn't need to have one, and I will continue to discourage people from investing in it as I feel the situation shows a lack of integrity of the people managing the project. All they had to do was say, "we are closing investment, so if you want to invest you need to do so within 4 hours" (or some reasonable time frame). All they have to do at this point is admit to the real reason they closed investment early.

BldSwtTrs

legendary

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Quote from: vlight on January 15, 2014, 05:01:27 PM

Quote from: Lloydie on January 15, 2014, 04:54:50 PM

Based on above.

ROI 0% requires ether doubling in value in Btc terms in first year. If Btc rises 10 times in fiat, ether needs 20 times increase in fiat terms for ROI to 0%.

Every year after that, ether depreciates per table above. This implies adoption rate must exceed Btc for it to ROI positively as Btc is strongly deflationary.

What is the point of measuring Ether's ROI in terms of BTC? Why not just measure in terms of fiat, or gold? Why choose a volatile BTC?

Because a lot of people plan to invest in BTC. And there is an opportunity cost.

If Ether underperformed BTC, it's make no economic sense to convert BTC into Ether.

tacotime

legendary

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Quote from: ak84 on January 15, 2014, 04:42:49 PM

A few people here didn't read the whitepaper closely enough.
1.2 trillion ether will NOT be issued at launch. At a tentative price of 0.0001 BTC, X ether will be raised. The initial money supply will be 1.5X, of which founders get .25X, ethereum reserve pool .25X, and fundraiser (investors) participants 1.0X.

After 1 year, total money supply is at 2X, with the ratios:

Founders .25X / 2.0X = 12.5%
Fundraisers 1.0X / 2.0X = 50%
Reserve .25 X / 2.0X = 12.5%
Miners .5X / 2.0X = 25%

Every year miners are mining .5X, this is the inflation rate

So year 1 inflation is (1.5X increase to 2X) = 33%
Year 2 inflation is 2X to 2.5X , 25%
Year 3 inflation is 2.5X to 3X, 20%
Year 4 inflation is 3X to 3.5X, 16.66%
Year 5 inflation is 3.5X to 4X, 14.2%

I personally think the distribution model is a lot fairer than the way Nxt and mastercoin did theirs. I'm not knowledgeable enough about emunie or bitshares to comment on their model, but I think ethereum has more promise than any of these other coins PLUS a fairer distribution.

This type of distribution is less than ideal, in my opinion.

We only hit the case where the premine is 10% of the mined portion of the coin at 27 years. For MC2, I aimed for <1% at the same time. But I guess it's all based on what a person considers a "fair" distribution.

You can approximately reach this with linear mining inflation using these ratios (this is after one years time, with miner production held constant):
Founders 0.5X / 12.0X = 4.2%
Fundraisers 2.0X / 12.0X = 16.7%
Reserve 0.5X / 12.0X = 4.2%
Miners 9.0X / 12.0X = 75%

I have no idea how many coins Satoshi has, but I'd guess it's less than 1.05m (but I may be wrong, I know it's quite large).

ThePatient

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Can someone give me synposis on wth this thing is (in as simplified terms as possible)?

Why should or shouldn't I invest. 10K for 1BTC....should be 20k.

Come-from-Beyond

legendary

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Newbie

Quote from: td services on January 15, 2014, 05:28:38 PM

Funny, I can't seem to get anyone to admit that investment was ended ended early in NXT or cancelled in eMunie to prevent further dilution of existing investors, though it is obvious that this is the case.

Aye, that's funny. I suspect people have another opinion and just think that u r trolling them.

td services

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black swan hunter

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on January 15, 2014, 05:23:41 PM

Quote from: td services on January 15, 2014, 05:22:21 PM

How does ending investment early without advance notice contribute to achieving the above?

No idea. U should ask BCNext. Grin

Funny, I can't seem to get anyone to admit that investment was ended ended early in NXT or cancelled in eMunie to prevent further dilution of existing investors, though it is obvious that this is the case.

Come-from-Beyond

legendary

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Newbie

Quote from: td services on January 15, 2014, 05:22:21 PM

How does ending investment early without advance notice contribute to achieving the above?

No idea. U should ask BCNext. Grin

td services

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black swan hunter

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on January 15, 2014, 05:15:53 PM

Quote from: td services on January 15, 2014, 05:14:25 PM

So, why was investment in NXT ended 6 weeks early?

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.4383169

Quote

Q: Why was the initial funding cancelled suddenly with few people?
A: I wanted Nxt to be launched by the community, not by a single person. Success of Nxt is supposed to be achieved by work of a LOT of PEOPLE.

How does ending investment early without advance notice contribute to achieving the above?

Come-from-Beyond

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Quote from: td services on January 15, 2014, 05:14:25 PM

So, why was investment in NXT ended 6 weeks early?

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.4383169

td services

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black swan hunter

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on January 15, 2014, 05:02:25 PM

Quote from: td services on January 15, 2014, 04:54:24 PM

NXT slammed the door in my face when I went to invest in it.

Obviously, we put different meaning into "fair", ok, never mind.

So, why was investment in NXT ended 6 weeks early?

Lloydie

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Quote from: vlight on January 15, 2014, 05:01:27 PM

Quote from: Lloydie on January 15, 2014, 04:54:50 PM

Based on above.

ROI 0% requires ether doubling in value in Btc terms in first year. If Btc rises 10 times in fiat, ether needs 20 times increase in fiat terms for ROI to 0%.

Every year after that, ether depreciates per table above. This implies adoption rate must exceed Btc for it to ROI positively as Btc is strongly deflationary.

What is the point of measuring Ether's ROI in terms of BTC? Why not just measure in terms of fiat, or gold? Why choose a volatile BTC?

We pay in Btc. Volatility is a subjective measure in terms of time scales. Using one year time scales, I find Btc volatility is ok.

Come-from-Beyond

legendary

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Newbie

Quote from: td services on January 15, 2014, 04:54:24 PM

NXT slammed the door in my face when I went to invest in it.

Obviously, we put different meaning into "fair", ok, never mind.

vlight

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Activity: 656

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Quote from: Lloydie on January 15, 2014, 04:54:50 PM

Based on above.

ROI 0% requires ether doubling in value in Btc terms in first year. If Btc rises 10 times in fiat, ether needs 20 times increase in fiat terms for ROI to 0%.

Every year after that, ether depreciates per table above. This implies adoption rate must exceed Btc for it to ROI positively as Btc is strongly deflationary.

What is the point of measuring Ether's ROI in terms of BTC? Why not just measure in terms of fiat, or gold? Why choose a volatile BTC?

Lloydie

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Quote from: ak84 on January 15, 2014, 04:42:49 PM

A few people here didn't read the whitepaper closely enough.
1.2 trillion ether will NOT be issued at launch. At a tentative price of 0.0001 BTC, X ether will be raised. The initial money supply will be 1.5X, of which founders get .25X, ethereum reserve pool .25X, and fundraiser (investors) participants 1.0X.

After 1 year, total money supply is at 2X, with the ratios:

Founders .25X / 2.0X = 12.5%
Fundraisers 1.0X / 2.0X = 50%
Reserve .25 X / 2.0X = 12.5%
Miners .5X / 2.0X = 25%

Every year miners are mining .5X, this is the inflation rate

So year 1 inflation is (1.5X increase to 2X) = 33%
Year 2 inflation is 2X to 2.5X , 25%
Year 3 inflation is 2.5X to 3X, 20%
Year 4 inflation is 3X to 3.5X, 16.66%
Year 5 inflation is 3.5X to 4X, 14.2%

I personally think the distribution model is a lot fairer than the way Nxt and mastercoin did theirs. I'm not knowledgeable enough about emunie or bitshares to comment on their model, but I think ethereum has more promise than any of these other coins PLUS a fairer distribution.

Based on above.

ROI 0% requires ether doubling in value in Btc terms in first year. If Btc rises 10 times in fiat, ether needs 20 times increase in fiat terms for ROI to 0%.

Every year after that, ether depreciates per table above. This implies adoption rate must exceed Btc for it to ROI positively as Btc is strongly deflationary.

td services

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black swan hunter

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on January 15, 2014, 04:48:24 PM

Quote from: ak84 on January 15, 2014, 04:42:49 PM

I personally think the distribution model is a lot fairer than the way Nxt and mastercoin did theirs.

I'd like to remind that Nxt raised only ~21 BTC.

Quote from: ak84 on January 15, 2014, 04:42:49 PM

I personally think the distribution model is a lot fairer than the way Nxt and mastercoin did theirs. I'm not knowledgeable enough about emunie or bitshares to comment on their model, but I think ethereum has more promise than any of these other coins PLUS a fairer distribution.

Mastercoin was very fair in its fundraising. NXT slammed the door in my face when I went to invest in it. Clearly, they closed the investment round 6 weeks early without advance notice to avoid further dilution of existing investors. I was busy with moving some Mastercoin to Protoshares at the time, planned on investing in NXT next.

From https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=303898.480 :

Quote from: Kyune on November 18, 2013, 03:19:24 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on November 18, 2013, 02:51:27 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on November 18, 2013, 01:53:05 AM

Quote from: td services on November 18, 2013, 01:51:09 AM

Can we still join in between now and January 3? I haven't really seen any clear definition of a deadline.

I'm waiting for the answer. BCNext reads this thread.

Some changes in the plan:

1. Fundraising is over. That last 1 BTC, sent after the 2nd marking transaction, will be accepted but no more deposits should be made.
2. Nxt will be launched earlier than on the 3rd of January, right after the final test.
3. New Nxt users r supposed to be attracted by selling NXT and distributing via Nxt Faucet.
4. Messaging feature will be released later to avoid situation when somebody attempts to bloat the blockchain making it too huge for newcomers.

BTW we need one more bootstrapping server, coz 2 servers is not enough.

So, if I understand this correctly:

1) the main dev (BCNext) no longer posts directly to this thread but you purport to communicate with him and speak for him about the project, something we can't confirm,
2) the deadline for contributing BTC to acquire Nxt, which was originally described as being open until the genesis block was approved by the community sometimes at least a month from now, is now suddenly declared over with no advance warning; and
3) the BTC that were already sent to acquire Nxt, which the main dev (BCNext) promised earlier in this thread not to touch until the genesis block was generated, have now been moved.

Come-from-Beyond

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Quote from: ak84 on January 15, 2014, 04:42:49 PM

I personally think the distribution model is a lot fairer than the way Nxt and mastercoin did theirs.

I'd like to remind that Nxt raised only ~21 BTC.

td services

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black swan hunter

True, the 1.2 Trillion is not mined all at once. It is more of a predicted eventual total over a time period described as the "foreseeable future". The distribution seems more like eMunie, where there is a gradual decrease in initial investor percentage stakes over time.

ak84

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A few people here didn't read the whitepaper closely enough.
1.2 trillion ether will NOT be issued at launch. At a tentative price of 0.0001 BTC, X ether will be raised. The initial money supply will be 1.5X, of which founders get .25X, ethereum reserve pool .25X, and fundraiser (investors) participants 1.0X.

After 1 year, total money supply is at 2X, with the ratios:

Founders .25X / 2.0X = 12.5%
Fundraisers 1.0X / 2.0X = 50%
Reserve .25 X / 2.0X = 12.5%
Miners .5X / 2.0X = 25%

Every year miners are mining .5X, this is the inflation rate

So year 1 inflation is (1.5X increase to 2X) = 33%
Year 2 inflation is 2X to 2.5X , 25%
Year 3 inflation is 2.5X to 3X, 20%
Year 4 inflation is 3X to 3.5X, 16.66%
Year 5 inflation is 3.5X to 4X, 14.2%

I personally think the distribution model is a lot fairer than the way Nxt and mastercoin did theirs. I'm not knowledgeable enough about emunie or bitshares to comment on their model, but I think ethereum has more promise than any of these other coins PLUS a fairer distribution.

Topic: Ethereum: 2nd gen cryptocurrency with contract programming, "dagger" hashing - page 22. (Read 84340 times)