Topic: Eyes to the horizon: A bitcoin ASIC project will be announced in June - page 2. (Read 72051 times)

If share dilution is so that you can involve others in the business, ie: by offering them new shares in exchange, then clearly that would be to the benefit of the other shareholders as well.

Why not enable voting rights on all shares then? Unless you plan to engage in a dilution that existing shareholders might not like? If it's in the interest of shareholders, surely they'll vote for it when it's needed.

You've given yourself terms that are far too generous for dilution and given shareholders zero recourse. We should expect absolute worst-case scenario, that you intend to issue 2 million new shares every year, devaluing the original investment by 20% a year at least.

No thanks.

What is it with all these investment schemes that seek to take advantage of people lately? It must be the incautious and the innumerate they plan to prey upon. Even if I trusted this offering, which I don't, the terms as given are awful.

Read the complete statement: "Be careful with no escrow he will easily run away with your bitcoin, what protection do you have for your investors? NONE !! Really Nothing and None !!

and you have No Say and No Rights and he has a bunch of Waivers in the event something or anything that happens he will not be Liable !! He can comes out with a a whole load of excuses and disappear and vaporize !! "

What are you talking about, lol.

If I raise an IPO is because I need the funds, what would be the role of an escrow in that?

Be careful with no escrow he will easily run away with your bitcoin, what protection do you have for your investors? NONE !! Really Nothing and None !!

and you have No Say and No Rights and he has a bunch of waivers in the event something or anything that happens he will not be Liable !! He can comes out with a a load of excuses and disappear !!

So how much % of profits are being set aside for expenses and expansion? Are 100% of profits payable to shareholders or is it some other figure?this needs to be made clear. I may have missed it but i see no mention anywhere of this in your IPO text.

It will be hard for a prudent investor to accept both a variable % of profits payable as dividends and potentially unlimited share dilution.


Let's be honest: your business exists to make a profit, not to look after the interests of shareholders who are late to the party. The free market will take care of share prices and putting a cap on the future price of your shares with potentially unlimited share dilution hanging over everyone's head will punish the early investors who chose to trust you before you established a trustworthy reputation. Not to mention such a clause has the potential to make your business a lot of money as well, earned at the expense of early shareholders.

I disagree with your philosophy on dilution but I have said my peace and I'll leave it to the rest to voice their opinion.

Look forward to seeing your future revision

Thanks for your advise.

Dilution will be kept in our IPO because it can somehow help involving more people in our business without buying those very-over-valued shares from speculators. Also, since our business model is self-grown , dilution is somehow more reasonable than classic ones. The advantages for existing  shareholders can be both  lower share price & earlier dividends. Furthermore ,all reinvestments are supposed to a higher ROR which is good to everyone involved in.


We will not , those small reinvestments like new-self-mining rooms creation will be taken from profit for sure, but larger ones will be absorbed from both dilution & earning.

We might modify the limitation of dilution to a lower percentage although it will be kept . please wait for the finial deal.

Aiwill, ive had a look at your amendment



Regarding this:


I am deeply suspicious. Anyway, continuing,


"
1,000,000 shares per half year is infinite dilution on an infinite time frame. This is not acceptable.


1/10 every six months is 10/10 in 5 years.


This is the classic definition on unwanted share dilution, and why people don't like it

Tl;dr

Issuable share capital needs to be limited and controllable by existing shareholders. In my opinion, allowing infinite share dilution by proclamation is totally unacceptable.

If you need funds for future development, then take a fixed percentage of profits, say 10%, for that and issue the remaining profits out as dividends and set a permanent fixed limit on the total number of shares. You don't generate funding by wantonly diluting existing share holder capital.

Thanks for all suggestions. It s still a draft that has been being changed.  I v already updated a lot .

+1

+1

+1

This section concerns me:

"Each share has the same dividends and there will be no more additional shares to be brought in unless a proclamation in advance, which, mostly likely,caused by a big movement/progress/project(examples:new generation of 40nm chips / full custom design systems / new large-scale hashrate deployment ). To protect the interests of shareholders,BTCGARDEN will never add more than 1,000,000 shares per half year."

It reeks of unilateral, unrestrained share dilution.

We need to see a hard limit on issued share capital and any changes beyond this limit must only be allowable with at least a minimum of 51% (preferably higher) acceptance by current shareholders.

However, theres this:

"Initially,each 1 share of BTCGARDEN represents to 1/10,000,000th of the dividends of the whole 10,000,000 shares."

So a maximum issuance of 10,000,000 shares then? With 2,400,000 issued initially?

Does anyone actually hold the unissued 7,600,000 shares at IPO? If not, then why are dividends issued on unissued share capital? Who enjoys these dividends?

If no one owns the shares, why then are dividends paid on 10,000,000 shares and not 2,400,000?

If these shares are already issued and owned, how come they can be issued at will (with proclamation in advance) at a rate no greater than 1,000,000 per 6 months?

Is the business owner intentionally issuing only 24% of share capital with a view to selling the remaining 76% over time to enrichen himself at the expense of the present shareholders? How many would be willing to buy shares in a company knowing they could be diluted 3 to 1 at any time in future, with no recourse?

There are inconsistencies here that require clarification

someone from china should do due diligence. while AM has been good for investors most chinese companies turn out bad. hope this will be good investment for many but someone who can verify them would be good.

Contract & Prospectus
Locked!   This asset has been locked by the BTC-TC admins.
Ticker   STOCK: BTCGARDEN
Moderator Score   0  (0/0)
Moderator Votes   YES 0 / 0 NO    (0 ABSTAINING -- Users with 10 or more shares of LTC-GLOBAL are allowed to vote.)
Shares   Outstanding 0 / 2400000 Issued
Issuer   btcgarden <[email protected]>
Website   http://www.btcgarden.com
Forum   https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/eyes-to-the-horizon-a-bitcoin-asic-project-will-be-announced-in-june-213172
Issuer Detail   
 
[Business Name]  BTCGARDEN
[Business Location (city/state/region/country)]   BEIJING/SHENZHEN/XIAN/CHINA

[Email Address]  [email protected]

[About your Company]  BTCSEA CO.,LTD, which was registered at Shenzhen,China in April,2013.Offices located in Shenzhen,Shanghai,Beijing,Xi`an,for mining-devices sales/ self-mining managements/websites maintenance.

 Also,a HongKong company for the preparation of offshore is on standby

[Company Website URL]   www.btcman.com; www.btcgarden.com; www.btcsea.com
[Linked-In Profile URL]   

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/eyes-to-the-horizon-a-bitcoin-asic-project-will-be-announced-in-june-213172
http://bbs.btcman.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=3774&extra=page%3D1

http://www.btcgarden.com

 

Overview:
BTCGARDEN-Stock was created for a project of ASIC bitcoin mining that is ongoing by our group, named btc-garden (www.btcgarden.com).  At the moment, we are at the stage of TAPE OUT.(LAYOUT finished on May)

We have started our project since Feb.2013.Also,according to our timetable, we will have around 200TH hashrate online on this Oct as our best situation.

 

 

Stockholder Agreement   
Initial Offering:

2,400,000 shares of BTCGARDEN,which occupies 24% of BTCSEA CO.,Ltd`s market value, will be made available to the public at btct.co. First 1,000,000 shares will be put up in value beginning at 0.0185 BTC/share,the rest of 1,400,000 shares will be issued with higher price after the first 1,000,000 shares have been sold out.

Each share has the same dividends and there will be no more additional shares to be brought in unless a proclamation in advance, which, mostly likely,caused by a big movement/progress/project(examples:new generation of 40nm chips / full custom design systems / new large-scale hashrate deployment ). To protect the interests of shareholders,BTCGARDEN will never add more than 1,000,000 shares per half year.

 

Shares
Initially,each 1 share of BTCGARDEN represents to 1/10,000,000th of the dividends of the whole 10,000,000 shares.

All of the mining profits will be paid out to the shareholders of BTCGARDEN weekly through btct.co. As its earliest,it will be start from the middle of September,2013, while our first batch of chips(200-300T) arrive and start being deployed.To save the most precious time, we have already paid for this first big-amount batch ,all shareholders can therefore expect a quicker & higher return than normal.

Each share in public has no voting rights.

Guarantees & profits

With the whole net hashrate 200TH(JULY 2013) at the moment, 1000TH is a reasonable estimate at the end of 2013, we should then concentrate on deploying our devices for self-mining till 350TH since our goal is 35% occupancy of the whole net. We have already taken a big risk to tapeout our first batch of 200TH directly(without sample chips & prototype) since we have enough confidence on our Layout ability.  Also,we will order the second batch immediately once we receive/test pass our first batch,which equal to at least 300TH more. Therefore,to compare with those potential competitors, we could have a very big advantage on production capacity in this year.We will then get a very huge return once achieve such an ambition.All shareholders will then be the main beneficiaries.


Reserved Rights


Issuer BTCSEA CO.,Ltd reserves the rights,including but not limited to the following:

1. To be in charge of the reinvestment of IPO funds.Pricing power of BTCGARDEN shares.

2. To compare with our huge expected income, the maintenance/company costs might be a small    percentage in normal ,however,any extra costs due to any kinds of accidents are still possible.

3. The power to make the desicion on issue date& quantity & value of addtional shares (up to 1,000,000shares per half year as maximum/limitation)

Big return with risks

To compare with other mining-projects,even if a very conservative estimate of our first coming hashrate -200T as example,our initial shareholders are going to have a deal equal to 0.228 BTC/GH.which is way much cheaper than any other existed similar-projects.However, since our chips are still in the stage of TAPEOUT and haven`t been tested pass ,risks are still there.

Warnings:

including but not limited to the following

1. There are still several risky factors lead to a failure of this project like : the failure of our chips;the failure of first batch`s Tapeout ;the illness or other severe health or life problems of issuers; natural damages of our mining-rooms...etc.

2. Because of several uncertain factors ,the speed of deployments of our first 200TH self-mining rooms is somehow unable to be determined exactly .(1-2 months for the whole 200TH as the fastest)

3. Besides the problem of inadequate productive capacity of SMIC ,any delay due to any other unforeseen circumstances is still possible.

Executive Summary   
* Hashing 7*24 with an overall 35% percentage of the whole network in long term.

* To occupy the market of user-hardwares and keep R & D the toppest products for Crypto currency-minning.

 

 Q & A

Q:Do you guys have any relationship with ASICMINER or AVALON?

A: No, but we do have a similar background. We also had some contacts with them through either IM tools or in person, although some of their thoughts / behaviours are hardly accepted by us.

Q: how to guarantee the transparency ? I know that a 100% provable openness is impossible in BTC world,but what can you offer as your best?

A: A routine video will be made & uploaded every day to show out how much we have digged out. It will be better than pure pictures or photos which can easily be photoshoped. We may adopt a lot of methods like this to reduce the probability we do anything dirty.

Q: Is there a list to show out all the solutions of those possible accidents? For instance, chips broken within first year; unexpected huge hashrate influent our income so much;equipments in the machinery rooms get stolen; Website get hacked;how long time is needed for deploying the first 100T;how to define the”first year”, if there are some offline-days in the first year, is any kind of compensation/refund offered…etc.

A: Some of the risky factors are inevitable, it is the nature of this business.

 

Q:Companies like KnCMiner claim 28nm ASIC.  I recall another person (i cannot recall the name) mentioning they were in the works for creating 28nm asics, will it crush yours?

 

A: In the present case (hundreds T size) , 28nm is totally unrealistic, it sounds like: pay millions more to save one dollar for electricity charges. With a rough calculation, 28nm would probably get a real advantage after hash rate achieve 50k+T

The thought that 28nm&45nm is "better" than 130nm is purely amateur, which nm number to choose depends on many factors, also, good optimizations in both FPGA and ASIC increase the function of chips so much,    which means that, even for 130nm/110nm, there are still  several aspects exist to improve. 

We have no idea about what is the real plan of those 28nm`s. I am not saying that theirs are fake, but I see no reason to develop 28nm at the moment, which is, extreme expensive/sounds pretty cool/highest risk and lowest return.


Q:What is your main purpose for this IPO?

   

A: 1 we need money for our second batch of chips ,which equal to 300T more hashrate,since we need to order the wafers in very advance,it will be too late to pay for it if we use the bitcoins we can hashout on Sep.

2 As the nature of bitcoin world, we would like to decentralise and share our incomes with community.

3 BTC-based stocks are beneficial & helpful & useful for bitcoin`s promotion in our opinion, also, as a necessary part of our company, we hope to issue this stock as a trial implementation of capital operation.


   
Q: any info of your second generation chips?


A: Most likely it will be 55/40nm chips and, LAYOUT & TAPEOUT within this year.(maybe tapeout together with our 1st-gene chips from then on)

 

 
Q: The current Btc-stock-platforms are rudimentary and immature, unforeseen events might be too dangerous to potential investors.


A:  Nothing can be absolutely safe .  As a matter of fact, BTC and all of its supporting facilities are rudimentary ,imperfect, and full of variables too. However, It is the duty for all of early investors to undertake these risks . Please deliberate this problem.

 
Q :Do your team has enough confidence on Btc in long term?


A: Yes, although there are still several really big problems exist on Cryptography currency, they are still solvable and worth paying for .

 
 

Business Description   
Purpose of this ipo

A: we need money for our second batch of chips ,which equal to 300T more hashrate,since we need to order the wafers in very advance,it will be too late to pay for it if we use the bitcoins we can mine out on Sep.

B: As the nature of bitcoin world, we would like to decentralise and share our incomes with community.

C: BTC-based stocks are beneficial & helpful & useful for bitcoin`s promotion in our opinion, also, as a necessary part of our company, we hope to issue this stock as a trial implementation of capital operation.

Current situation

Hashrate of our first batch will be around 200-300T(depend on whether & in what extent we over clock our chips).By far,we have prepared everything well,which means that we can start hashing immediately after we take the chips.The proportion of distribution of our chips on mining-hardware and self-mining-room depends on several factors like : how many orders we can have, the practice efficiency of our demo-hashing-room, the ROR of each of them..etc... it is also worth mentioning that we will start both of  projects at the same time.

To compare to other teams,we at the moment have an advantage of deploying mining-rooms rather than sales&marketing. We will deploy our rooms in 3 cities (Beijing,Xi An,ShenZhen)  in the meantime. Relatively, we are considering to accept outsourcing in terms of the sales & marketing & promotions of our user-mining-hardwares.

Definition of the Market   
We mainly focus on Bitcoin-mining and relating-hardwares sales.

Products and Services   
Tech Exhibition
a)   Project Milestone
i.   March 15th: We also signed the confidential contract with the IC manufacture and got the library for synthesis and layout.
ii.   April 10th: Our RTL design, optimization and simulation were finished. We have some data to predict the specification of actual chips.

b)   ASIC brief introduction
SMIC 0.13um;
Core Voltage: 1.2V;
I/O: Voltage: 3.3V;
Core Frequencey: 400MH/s;( @vdd 1.25V);
Number of Pads; 64;
Package lqfp64;

For more details please visit: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/eyes-to-the-horizon-a-bitcoin-asic-project-will-be-announced-in-june-213172

                               http://bbs.btcman.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=3774&extra=page%3D1

 

User-mining-hardwares

1. Price for our  “Garden Miner" will be 0.45BTC/GH, the prices of all models can therefore be calculated.  This price is based on shippment Date: the end of Aug/start of Sep, any delay will make the price even lower.
2. Models of "Garden miner" include : 24GH,48GH,96GH,192GH,  power consumption is approximate 5W/GH, i.e., the biggest 192GH `s P-consumption will be around 1KW.
3. Hope the "Plug and play" functionality will be added in the first generation("Simple-operation "is always our persuit,but we cant 100% sure we can do so in the first gene)

Organization and Management   
About Us

BTCSEA Co.,Ltd (WWW.BTCMAN.COM, portals & information site in Chinese,with 25k registered members by far) is a full time bitcoin-related company from china; we currently have a decent PV of our forum & the main site.
In terms of the project of BTCGARDEN, all of our core members were graduated from CAS (Chinese Academy of Sciences), after graduation, some of them stayed there to do research works till now, while others make a living at Intel or Nvidia, I.e. we have both R&D Personnels from institute and practical engineers from mature industrial system. From a technical perspective, the difficulty of this project is really easier than many of our previous ASIC projects.


List of Us
ID:W.J, team leader, 8 years experience in system design.
ID:D.M , 3 years Intel experience in VLSI design( front-end and back-end ),5 years
Experience in system design and software design. In charge of ASIC design and software design.
ID: Xrange.G, 8 years Spreadtrum experience in VLSI design (front-end). In charge of RTL design, RTL verification.
ID: Kevin.S, 12 years HuaWei experience in VLSI design (front-end and back-end). In charge of FPGA verification, synthesis.
ID: Y.S, 4 years NIVIDA experience in VLSI design (back-end). In charge of physical design.

Marketing Strategy   
Steps of our goal:

  a) we will DIY-deploy our first batch of 200T at Shenzhen/beijing/Xian/Suzhou at the same time once the chips finished.
  b) An extra 300TH will be in hand after we finish deploying the first 200TH(which might spend we 1-2months) because we will order new chips just after the moment the first batch of chips pass the test,the new 300TH will be a very powerful preparation for our future. (we can save 50 days at least by order it in advance.)
  c) we will then keep DIY-deploying our chips,and maybe outsource the sale of our user-mining-hardwares.
  d) The 2nd-gene chips will be finished Layout and start TAPEOUT within this year (maybe tapeout together with our 1st-gene chips from then on)

We plan to finish deploying 200T+ before the end of Nov,2013.We will then start our next generation chip`s research & keep adding new hashrates as much as we can (up to 35% of the whole network)

Financial Management   
BTCSEA CO.,Ltd will be in charge of all IPO funds .Some remarkable advices from shareholders may be acceptable but we make the final decision. We will keep updating our website to list everything in details. Any big reinvest to add new hashrate or to develop new generation products will be tell in advance.

look like aready on BTCT ,"lock" tab~~check it out and share your point~~

I would like to see a formal business plan and the structure of the business as well as how profits will be distributed. Hopefully he can get that ready so we can review it.

if Garden will start IPO in 2 weeks ,i suggest Aiwill hand out the formal business plan ASAP, actually I am more worried about the suppley chain & internal operation etc. which related to the actual running of the business, rather than the tech...

Yes he took a kick at those Europeans..

He didn't actually insult all westerners, or even all Europeans. In the thread he only refereed to Nordic people as being especially lazy, with 2 hour workdays 4.5 days a week. (which I guess would be coming in for an hour on Friday?)

Pardon me, but one of the world's leading semiconductor foundries has his - undoubtedly in comparison to the size of orders they routinely handle - trivially small order in a queue.  

Instead of stating something like "SMIC has provided us with a date of September", he states it as a "problem of inadequate productive capacity."  What. an. asshole.  

I don't know, nor care, what course others might take with this vendor, but I know what course I would take.