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Topic: f2pool not supporting roundtable was Re: 「魚池」BTC:270 Phash/s - LTC:500 Ghash/s - New Server in U.S. stratum-us.f2pool.com - page 4. (Read 4532 times)

legendary
Activity: 1442
Merit: 1001
We are currently under DDoS counterattack.

Fixed it for you.

Mess with the honey badger and you get the claws.  Plus the teeth.


Really? DDoS attack is not what makes bitcoin consensus strong and it can be easily countered by the most well capitalized businesses getting larger and more centralized.
hero member
Activity: 737
Merit: 500
We are currently under DDoS counterattack.

Fixed it for you.

Mess with the honey badger and you get the claws.  Plus the teeth.



Fatman, are you sure he's three already?
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 100
We are currently under DDoS attack.

Well, time to forget about the whole HK agreement, and break free from their tyranny.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
We are currently under DDoS counterattack.

Fixed it for you.

Mess with the honey badger and you get the claws.  Plus the teeth.

legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1013
Make Bitcoin glow with ENIAC
We are currently under DDoS attack.

That's the Bitcoin community for ya. A three year old with a bot net.
sr. member
Activity: 324
Merit: 260
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
Current network already can handle traffic at 16MB,..

There are many of us who don't have the bandwidth to run a full node at home right now and are going to be forced to only run hosted nodes at 15 dollars a month and up because of the capacity increase in April. You are citing theoretical best performance networks when what we should be focused on is finding a balance where we don't have progressively more nodes dropping off and higher costs to run a full node. Advocating for extreme blocksizes ostracizing many people and places a dangerous precedence that we can simply scale bitcoin in a really sloppy manner by increasing the blocksize.

It is also extremely inconsiderate to not acknowledge many of the other concerns with TOR , and the firewall in china when considering the impact that a large block size will have upon the users.

Yes, there are some difficulties for individual home users, but similar to settlement and clearing based design, I prefer a settlement and clearing design for data traffic instead of financial transactions: The settlement layer is enterprise level bitcoin mining hubs and full nodes around the world run by bitcoin companies (there are thousands of them today, should be enough to reach the same level of decentralization today - 6000+ full nodes, and they have motivation to run them due to their own business requirement), and the layer two is home users running SPV client or pruned nodes, webwallet, exchanges etc... The settlement layer can afford magnitudes higher bandwidth, also the processing power is much higher. And layer two can use a variety of different off-chain transactions to reduce the traffic on-chain and get instant confirmation and zero fee /refund benefits

Regarding the TOR, if you have specific reason to use this kind of service, then you should use an alt-coin, which is much less regulated. Indeed, china's firewall is the biggest question now, but if there is a bandwidth bottleneck, I think in that case sidechain/LN does not help either, since they just moved the transaction out of bitcoin data traffic to some other type of data traffic, the total bandwidth requirement do not get less. Suppose you are sending 1 bitcoin from china to US, they would have to send exactly the same amount of transaction data no matter what technology they use (maybe even more data need to be sent)
legendary
Activity: 2856
Merit: 1518
Bitcoin Legal Tender Countries: 2 of 206
legendary
Activity: 994
Merit: 1034
Current network already can handle traffic at 16MB,..

There are many of us who don't have the bandwidth to run a full node at home right now and are going to be forced to only run hosted nodes at 15 dollars a month and up because of the capacity increase in April. You are citing theoretical best performance networks when what we should be focused on is finding a balance where we don't have progressively more nodes dropping off and higher costs to run a full node. Advocating for extreme blocksizes ostracizing many people and places a dangerous precedence that we can simply scale bitcoin in a really sloppy manner by increasing the blocksize.

It is also extremely inconsiderate to not acknowledge many of the other concerns with TOR , and the firewall in china when considering the impact that a large block size will have upon the users.
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
Current network already can handle traffic at 16MB, if the volume doubles each year, that's no problem for another 4 years. And there is no point to forecast anything beyond 4 years (Government might ban bitcoin at that time, or bitcoin out-competed by a world coin setup by world largest banks using blockchain, too many uncertainties)

Currently fastest fiber network can do 255Tbps
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/192929-255tbps-worlds-fastest-network-could-carry-all-the-internet-traffic-single-fiber

And if you can successfully do a hard fork, it is very beneficial for bitcoin, means in future, many changes and optimization can be done on the current architecture cleanly without using deceptive soft-fork hack
legendary
Activity: 994
Merit: 1034
Announcement: We will withdraw support from February 21’s roundtable consensus, unless Adam Back gives us a reasonable explanation why he quietly changed his title from Blockstream President to Individual at the very last moment — without anybody noticed. We feel we’ve been cheated. I don’t know how we can trust Blockstream anymore in the future.
Hmm, couldn't all the pools just go with 2MB and tell the devs who think they control everything to stop trying to make themselves feel important?

Bitcoin is by design controlled by the consensus of the miners, not by centralised control.
It would seem that there are all sorts of parties trying to control bitcoin and I guess they all simply fail to understand the design.

Doesn't really matter how important devs think they are, if they want to be a relevant part of the blockchain decisions then they need to be miners.

...

BlockStream/Sidechains/SegWit all sounds a lot like trying pointlessly to control altcoins and make something like a partial SPV ... to me.

Kano, I'm happy to say, we've found something we can agree on Wink

Blockstream (BS) is trying it's hardest to force an artificial fee market before it's time so that developers will be motivated to work on off-chain solutions and users will be incentivized to use them.

While Lightning sounds cool in theory its not ready yet and BS has successfully captured Core development to steer it towards those things it needs to release LN (RBF, SegWit, CLTV, etc...).

Now they are trying to capture large miners to expedite adoption of RBF of and SegWit by making promises they know they can not keep.

BS has become so entrenched in protecting their position by limiting Bitcoin's capacity that they can not see the forest through the trees.



I applaud Blockstream and LN developers working independent of Blockstream like Joseph Poon and Thaddeus Dryja who recognize that Bitcoin cannot scale to compete by simply kicking the can over and over and increasing the blocksize. It isn't an appeal to authority but simply a recognition of the facts and data that we would be much better off focusing on building multiple payment channels that resolve and support the bitcoin blockchain. It sets a dangerous precedence to not follow the evidence and best recommendations and instead be swept up with politics or fear that a fee market event will cause tremendous damage to Bitcoin's ecosystem in itself. No one has any solid evidence that this will occur instead of simply pushing some spam off chain.

Your explanations aren't a secret and I and many others are quite direct that bitcoin cannot possibly resolve all tx's on the chain and be efficient and scale. It has to become a settlement network to compete and serve at its intended purpose.

It would be good advice going forward if not only developers, but everyone was more involved in mining and we strive to incentivize a more diverse group of miners. It would also be wise if large mining pools contributed more to development so they have an influence in the direction of bitcoin and at minimum understand the process to a greater degree. More implementations that don't break consensus rules are also wise but encouraging a contentious hard fork with such a low threshold is akin to attacking the ecosystem.

P.S... I look forward to reading Bitcoin Classic's Scaling roadmap and am open to any evidence or proposals they suggest, but without a proposal even available to discuss Classic should not even be up for consideration until a plan is proposed and reviewed.
legendary
Activity: 1258
Merit: 1027
Announcement: We will withdraw support from February 21’s roundtable consensus, unless Adam Back gives us a reasonable explanation why he quietly changed his title from Blockstream President to Individual at the very last moment — without anybody noticed. We feel we’ve been cheated. I don’t know how we can trust Blockstream anymore in the future.
Hmm, couldn't all the pools just go with 2MB and tell the devs who think they control everything to stop trying to make themselves feel important?

Bitcoin is by design controlled by the consensus of the miners, not by centralised control.
It would seem that there are all sorts of parties trying to control bitcoin and I guess they all simply fail to understand the design.

Doesn't really matter how important devs think they are, if they want to be a relevant part of the blockchain decisions then they need to be miners.

...

BlockStream/Sidechains/SegWit all sounds a lot like trying pointlessly to control altcoins and make something like a partial SPV ... to me.

Kano, I'm happy to say, we've found something we can agree on Wink

Blockstream (BS) is trying it's hardest to force an artificial fee market before it's time so that developers will be motivated to work on off-chain solutions and users will be incentivized to use them.

While Lightning sounds cool in theory its not ready yet and BS has successfully captured Core development to steer it towards those things it needs to release LN (RBF, SegWit, CLTV, etc...).

Now they are trying to capture large miners to expedite adoption of RBF of and SegWit by making promises they know they can not keep.

BS has become so entrenched in protecting their position by limiting Bitcoin's capacity that they can not see the forest through the trees.

newbie
Activity: 23
Merit: 0
Bitcoin is by design controlled by the consensus of the miners, not by centralised control.
It would seem that there are all sorts of parties trying to control bitcoin and I guess they all simply fail to understand the design.

Doesn't really matter how important devs think they are, if they want to be a relevant part of the blockchain decisions then they need to be miners.

I think you are greatly overestimating miner importance.

If all of Bitcoin's miners started mining Dogecoin tomorrow, would that make Dogecoin the new Bitcoin?
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1013
Make Bitcoin glow with ENIAC
Announcement: We will withdraw support from February 21’s roundtable consensus, unless Adam Back gives us a reasonable explanation why he quietly changed his title from Blockstream President to Individual at the very last moment — without anybody noticed. We feel we’ve been cheated. I don’t know how we can trust Blockstream anymore in the future.
Hmm, couldn't all the pools just go with 2MB and tell the devs who think they control everything to stop trying to make themselves feel important?

Bitcoin is by design controlled by the consensus of the miners, not by centralised control.
It would seem that there are all sorts of parties trying to control bitcoin and I guess they all simply fail to understand the design.

Doesn't really matter how important devs think they are, if they want to be a relevant part of the blockchain decisions then they need to be miners.

...

BlockStream/Sidechains/SegWit all sounds a lot like trying pointlessly to control altcoins and make something like a partial SPV ... to me.

Wow!

If you're game it shouldn't be much of a problem. Much of the code should be easy to implement and as far as I can see it shouldn't be too hard to get at least something like 93% of the network to start running it fairly immediately. This way it will be Core +2MB without the politics. No dev war, less drama behind the scenes.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
Announcement: We will withdraw support from February 21’s roundtable consensus, unless Adam Back gives us a reasonable explanation why he quietly changed his title from Blockstream President to Individual at the very last moment — without anybody noticed. We feel we’ve been cheated. I don’t know how we can trust Blockstream anymore in the future.
Hmm, couldn't all the pools just go with 2MB and tell the devs who think they control everything to stop trying to make themselves feel important?

Bitcoin is by design controlled by the consensus of the miners, not by centralised control.
It would seem that there are all sorts of parties trying to control bitcoin and I guess they all simply fail to understand the design.

Doesn't really matter how important devs think they are, if they want to be a relevant part of the blockchain decisions then they need to be miners.

...

BlockStream/Sidechains/SegWit all sounds a lot like trying pointlessly to control altcoins and make something like a partial SPV ... to me.


Still, miners controlling bitcoin would be an overstatement.

Whether 51% or 75% attack they'd loose big if they try anything like that (probably all of us).

So nobody controls bitcoin. And that is good news.



But please proceed with the defiance, politics and cheap mainstreameries.

Bitcoin unaffected, if not strengthening, feasting on all that (negative) energy.

legendary
Activity: 4466
Merit: 1798
Linux since 1997 RedHat 4
Announcement: We will withdraw support from February 21’s roundtable consensus, unless Adam Back gives us a reasonable explanation why he quietly changed his title from Blockstream President to Individual at the very last moment — without anybody noticed. We feel we’ve been cheated. I don’t know how we can trust Blockstream anymore in the future.
Hmm, couldn't all the pools just go with 2MB and tell the devs who think they control everything to stop trying to make themselves feel important?

Bitcoin is by design controlled by the consensus of the miners, not by centralised control.
It would seem that there are all sorts of parties trying to control bitcoin and I guess they all simply fail to understand the design.

Doesn't really matter how important devs think they are, if they want to be a relevant part of the blockchain decisions then they need to be miners.

...

BlockStream/Sidechains/SegWit all sounds a lot like trying pointlessly to control altcoins and make something like a partial SPV ... to me.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 1000
In short: If you want to be angry at someone, be angry at the people who attended the meeting on behalf of Core and Blockstream without having the authority to represent neither.
Sound about right...
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1013
Make Bitcoin glow with ENIAC
Unprofessional how? I say this without malice. Greg, you're not much of an ambassador - leave the negotiations to someone else and stick with the tech explanations which you are very good at.
See Peter Todd's nice explanation on Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/47cjb5/f2pool_to_withdraw_support_from_round_table_due/d0byl5a

Quote
The Medium post wasn't officially released with Adam Back as 'Blockstream President' - you're thinking of the draft, which was released publicly by accident.

FWIW, Adam Back wasn't the person who actually typed in "Blockstream President" in the original Medium draft - IIRC the document was edited on Samson Mow's laptop and he probably actually typed it in based on what he assumed Adam Back would sign as.

Before the final copy was released officially Adam Back asked for that title to be changed to individual after consulting with others, including other Blockstream employees, as well non-Blockstream Bitcoin devs such as myself, both at the meeting and on IRC. That actual edit was probably made by Samson again.

The rational for that change was pretty simple: Adam Back didn't feel he could speak for Blockstream officially without further consultation with others at Blockstream. Similarly, rather than use the more common term 'Bitcoin Core Developer', we specifically used the term 'Bitcoin Core Contributor' to avoid giving the impression that the Bitcoin developers who signed were signing on behalf of all Bitcoin Core developers (edit: I personally argued for even more clear language along those lines, but everyone was getting tired so I decided to drop the issue, and instead I made it clear in my tweet rather than delay things even further).

Since an earnest piece of confusion existed here the professional way to handle it would have been to first simply send an email "Hey, what happened here?"  Not to issue a public ultimatum; especially when the subject matter in question was a title on a on a document, and doubly so when the party being attacked didn't even have the technical ability to change it themselves. Even in the least charitable interpretation of the facts, F2Pool making a public fuss and threatening to change their operating behavior over this matter does not give me an impression of a thoughtfully managed organization.

Mistakes happen, however, and I do not think they should be vilified for it, but nor do I think it should be flushed from history.

Cheers.

The miners gave a lot in this "consensus agreement". I doubt they did so in order for Adam to give them a BIP that would be dropped in a heartbeat. When Adam & co met they should have understood that the people on the other side of the table expected them to represent Core in a way that would lead to an enforceable agreement.

Does appear a bit ridiculous... so Either there is some unmentioned other reason, some cultural difference, or just an excuse to back out... it really doesn't make much sense in context.

The "cultural difference" is that they're done playing games. It takes two to tango, so you have to stick to the agreement as well. When one of the key signatories changes from "Blockstream/Core" to "bearded middle-aged man" after the agreement is reached, you broke the deal.

I for one think the posts are an example unprofessional practices on the part of F2Pool, and are of topical interest to miners considering using the pool. I hope history isn't whitewashed through their removal.

If all the other miners on their pool left f2pool, the difference would be marginal. Their in-house HW would still be enough to effectively block anything you throw at them.

In short: If you want to be angry at someone, be angry at the people who attended the meeting on behalf of Core and Blockstream without having the authority to represent neither.
-ck
legendary
Activity: 4088
Merit: 1631
Ruu \o/
Well not sure I understand everything here however I noticed F2pool isn't in the top 3 anymore in winning blocks since this change.
Can't see how it's related. All I see is a bad luck patch for f2pool.
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