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myrkul

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Quote from: luv2drnkbr on January 16, 2013, 08:51:51 PM

Quote from: myrkul on January 05, 2013, 04:17:32 PM

Luv2drnkbr's comment, however, was made from the perspective of the shooter, as evinced by the use of "I," and "my." And he never references his state of mind, or intent.

Intent and state of mind are completely useless (until further advances in neuroscience develop). People can lie about intent and it's impossible to legislate. All we can do is monitor actions and statistical consequences. Intent and state of mind only matter inasmuch as they are precursors to, and puppet masters of, actions.

Precisely. It doesn't matter why he's shooting people, if he's shooting people, he needs to be shot in return.

luv2drnkbr

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Quote from: myrkul on January 05, 2013, 04:17:32 PM

Luv2drnkbr's comment, however, was made from the perspective of the shooter, as evinced by the use of "I," and "my." And he never references his state of mind, or intent.

Intent and state of mind are completely useless (until further advances in neuroscience develop). People can lie about intent and it's impossible to legislate. All we can do is monitor actions and statistical consequences. Intent and state of mind only matter inasmuch as they are precursors to, and puppet masters of, actions.

organofcorti

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Poor impulse control.

Quote from: myrkul on January 06, 2013, 05:11:26 PM

Just respond to this:

Quote from: myrkul on January 05, 2013, 12:06:01 PM

"a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the population as a whole. "

Does that sound anything like Zeitgeist?

Hey myrkul, this Zeitgeist thingy would be awesome! I'd be happy not to have to work ever again - just lie on a beach all day (except between 10:30am and 3:30pm when it gets too hot) eating mangoes and drinking coconut juice. It would be a life long Christmas holiday! Yay!

Rassah

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Positions in law enforcement tend to attract people with interests in power and forcing people to follow the rule of law. Oftentimes those are people with high morals, who wish to keep the peace and protect the citizens. Also, often, it's people who think they know what is best for society, and who tend to get a bit of a high from power. Once the laws get more restrictive, the power hungry enforce-the-law types tend to get more control, and push those who may have moral objections to the law out of the force. They can, because the law says they are right. In the end, you end up with a bunch of power-hungry psychopaths who believe they are doing the right thing because the law says so, even when the law itself isn't right. Besides the obvious Hitler example, there's also the rise of Soviet Union, and the modern China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Russia again, and pretty much every other dictatorship and faux-Democracy out there. Egyptian army putting down its weapons and refusing to fight its population during the uprising is the only example of your claim I could think of, but even that is becoming somewhat questionable now, as the army is one of the groups contending to take power there.

myrkul

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Quote from: DoomDumas on January 06, 2013, 04:37:03 PM

Quote from: myrkul on January 05, 2013, 03:15:22 AM

Quote from: DoomDumas on January 05, 2013, 02:59:25 AM

Freedom will be possible only in a world without the monetary system !

Peddle your robocommunism elsewhere.

Myrkul, Im quite tired of this closed-minded cat spaming the same hyper-libertarain stuff everywhere..

Your message would be more received if you show more open minded message, and not spamming that much certitude from your point of view...

Only mad folks did'nt changed mind, or at least, take a serious look at different opinion.

Do you think I have not examined both Zeitgeist and The Venus Project? I have examined it in great detail, and found it to be communism in another disguise, and thus rejected it.

Quote from: DoomDumas on January 06, 2013, 04:37:03 PM

Seems you like to post provocative thread, to then refute each and every point that did'nt fit your mindset..

Yes, I do like to shut down lies with the truth. But you'll note that I did not start this thread.

Quote from: DoomDumas on January 06, 2013, 04:37:03 PM

Enought for me.. wont read more from you Wink

Just respond to this:

Quote from: myrkul on January 05, 2013, 12:06:01 PM

"a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the population as a whole. "

Does that sound anything like Zeitgeist?

DoomDumas

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Bitcoin

Quote from: myrkul on January 05, 2013, 03:15:22 AM

Quote from: DoomDumas on January 05, 2013, 02:59:25 AM

Freedom will be possible only in a world without the monetary system !

Peddle your robocommunism elsewhere.

Myrkul, Im quite tired of this closed-minded cat spaming the same hyper-libertarain stuff everywhere..

Your message would be more received if you show more open minded message, and not spamming that much certitude from your point of view...

Only mad folks did'nt changed mind, or at least, take a serious look at different opinion.

Seems you like to post provocative thread, to then refute each and every point that did'nt fit your mindset..

Enought for me.. wont read more from you Wink

neptop

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On the topic:

...a state of mind.

myrkul

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Quote from: FirstAscent on January 05, 2013, 04:54:55 PM

Quote from: myrkul on January 05, 2013, 04:45:24 PM

Quote from: FirstAscent on January 05, 2013, 04:39:57 PM

Quote from: myrkul on January 05, 2013, 04:32:44 PM

Quote from: FirstAscent on January 05, 2013, 04:30:15 PM

Quote from: myrkul on January 05, 2013, 04:25:08 PM

Quote from: Schleicher on January 05, 2013, 04:20:23 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

What will the second class citizens do when a sicko gets into a position of power, such as the one overseeing all of those regulated and trained law enforcers.

Most of the law enforcers will simply refuse to follow his orders.

That's an interesting theory. How has that worked in the past?

Quite well, given a well thought out government. We learn as much and more from the common cases than the outliers.

Care to present some of those "common cases"?

You mean all those in aggregate hundreds and hundreds of years the world's nations having not made the headlines because their leader was not another Hitler?

Meaning, you don't actually have any examples, but you're sure they happened, right?

So you're saying every time there's an example of your imagined Hitler event not happening, it doesn't count as an example?

No, remember, we're looking for examples of this happening:

Quote

Most of the law enforcers will simply refuse to follow his orders.

Not examples of this not happening:

Quote

when a sicko gets into a position of power, such as the one overseeing all of those regulated and trained law enforcers

And you don't have any.

FirstAscent

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Quote from: myrkul on January 05, 2013, 04:45:24 PM

Quote from: FirstAscent on January 05, 2013, 04:39:57 PM

Quote from: myrkul on January 05, 2013, 04:32:44 PM

Quote from: FirstAscent on January 05, 2013, 04:30:15 PM

Quote from: myrkul on January 05, 2013, 04:25:08 PM

Quote from: Schleicher on January 05, 2013, 04:20:23 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

What will the second class citizens do when a sicko gets into a position of power, such as the one overseeing all of those regulated and trained law enforcers.

Most of the law enforcers will simply refuse to follow his orders.

That's an interesting theory. How has that worked in the past?

Quite well, given a well thought out government. We learn as much and more from the common cases than the outliers.

Care to present some of those "common cases"?

You mean all those in aggregate hundreds and hundreds of years the world's nations having not made the headlines because their leader was not another Hitler?

Meaning, you don't actually have any examples, but you're sure they happened, right?

So you're saying every time there's an example of your imagined Hitler event not happening, it doesn't count as an example?

myrkul

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Quote from: FirstAscent on January 05, 2013, 04:39:57 PM

Quote from: myrkul on January 05, 2013, 04:32:44 PM

Quote from: FirstAscent on January 05, 2013, 04:30:15 PM

Quote from: myrkul on January 05, 2013, 04:25:08 PM

Quote from: Schleicher on January 05, 2013, 04:20:23 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

What will the second class citizens do when a sicko gets into a position of power, such as the one overseeing all of those regulated and trained law enforcers.

Most of the law enforcers will simply refuse to follow his orders.

That's an interesting theory. How has that worked in the past?

Quite well, given a well thought out government. We learn as much and more from the common cases than the outliers.

Care to present some of those "common cases"?

You mean all those in aggregate hundreds and hundreds of years the world's nations having not made the headlines because their leader was not another Hitler?

Meaning, you don't actually have any examples, but you're sure they happened, right?

FirstAscent

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Quote from: myrkul on January 05, 2013, 04:32:44 PM

Quote from: FirstAscent on January 05, 2013, 04:30:15 PM

Quote from: myrkul on January 05, 2013, 04:25:08 PM

Quote from: Schleicher on January 05, 2013, 04:20:23 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

What will the second class citizens do when a sicko gets into a position of power, such as the one overseeing all of those regulated and trained law enforcers.

Most of the law enforcers will simply refuse to follow his orders.

That's an interesting theory. How has that worked in the past?

Quite well, given a well thought out government. We learn as much and more from the common cases than the outliers.

Care to present some of those "common cases"?

You mean all those in aggregate hundreds and hundreds of years the world's nations having not made the headlines because their leader was not another Hitler?

Myrkul, try for once to convince me that your untested, unrealized, and unaccepted idea for no government is actually appealing. Try to convince me that 300 million guns is not enough, and one billion guns in the hands of everyone is what we want. Try to convince me that aspiring nuclear bomb owners who can actually obtain said devices are what we want. Try to convince me that your uninhibited money buys rights and justice is what we want.

myrkul

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Quote from: FirstAscent on January 05, 2013, 04:30:15 PM

Quote from: myrkul on January 05, 2013, 04:25:08 PM

Quote from: Schleicher on January 05, 2013, 04:20:23 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

What will the second class citizens do when a sicko gets into a position of power, such as the one overseeing all of those regulated and trained law enforcers.

Most of the law enforcers will simply refuse to follow his orders.

That's an interesting theory. How has that worked in the past?

Quite well, given a well thought out government. We learn as much and more from the common cases than the outliers.

Care to present some of those "common cases"?

FirstAscent

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Activity: 812

Merit: 1000

Quote from: myrkul on January 05, 2013, 04:25:08 PM

Quote from: Schleicher on January 05, 2013, 04:20:23 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

What will the second class citizens do when a sicko gets into a position of power, such as the one overseeing all of those regulated and trained law enforcers.

Most of the law enforcers will simply refuse to follow his orders.

That's an interesting theory. How has that worked in the past?

Quite well, given a well thought out government. We learn as much and more from the common cases than the outliers.

myrkul

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Quote from: Schleicher on January 05, 2013, 04:20:23 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

What will the second class citizens do when a sicko gets into a position of power, such as the one overseeing all of those regulated and trained law enforcers.

Most of the law enforcers will simply refuse to follow his orders.

That's an interesting theory. How has that worked in the past?

Schleicher

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Activity: 675

Merit: 514

Quote from: ?? on ??

What will the second class citizens do when a sicko gets into a position of power, such as the one overseeing all of those regulated and trained law enforcers.

Most of the law enforcers will simply refuse to follow his orders.

myrkul

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Activity: 532

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Quote from: Dalkore on January 05, 2013, 04:01:09 PM

Quote from: myrkul on January 05, 2013, 02:48:26 PM

Quote from: Dalkore on January 05, 2013, 02:29:53 PM

Quote from: myrkul on January 05, 2013, 02:18:53 PM

You're right, I don't understand your position. Are you arguing that they will not think (correctly) that their lives are in danger? Or that they will not hurt you to stop that danger? Or are you disputing that it's a bad idea?

Now [you're] trying to change what the discussion was about. Pretty pathetic. That will not work.

This scenario was about what was going on in the shooter's mind and that is all.

If it was, this is the first indication of that fact.

It might be wise to re-quote the original post of the discussion:

Quote from: hazek on January 05, 2013, 09:29:31 AM

Quote from: luv2drnkbr on January 05, 2013, 08:40:24 AM

It is not a victimless crime. I could shoot a gun in public, randomly waving it about, and not hit a single person, but it's still a bad idea because the CHANCE of hurting another person was increased due to my actions. The fact that I didn't actually hit anybody doesn't change anything.

You've got it all wrong. It's not a bad idea because you might hurt someone, it's a bad idea because others might think their lives are in danger and they'll hurt you to stop you. Same goes for speeding.

Seems like the only discussion about what was going on in anyone's mind is about those he's (potentially) shooting at. The shooter's mind isn't discussed at all. So, who is trying to change the topic of discussion?

I never said that and that was not the original discussion. Maybe I need to quote it for you again because your lack of comprehension skill in context. I have bolded what you preceded to defend in latter comments.

Hazek - "It's not a bad idea because you might hurt someone (this is being spoken as the shooter), it's a bad idea because others might think their lives are in danger and they'll hurt you to stop you. "

Above comment was in response to: "I could shoot a gun in public, randomly waving it about, and not hit a single person, but it's still a bad idea because the CHANCE of hurting another person was increased due to my actions. The fact that I didn't actually hit anybody doesn't change anything."

Hazek's comment was not being spoken as the shooter. It might be being spoken to the shooter, as evinced by the fact he uses "you" instead of "I" or "me," but it's clearly not being said from the point of view of the shooter. Luv2drnkbr's comment, however, was made from the perspective of the shooter, as evinced by the use of "I," and "my." And he never references his state of mind, or intent.

Dalkore

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Quote from: myrkul on January 05, 2013, 02:48:26 PM

Quote from: Dalkore on January 05, 2013, 02:29:53 PM

Quote from: myrkul on January 05, 2013, 02:18:53 PM

You're right, I don't understand your position. Are you arguing that they will not think (correctly) that their lives are in danger? Or that they will not hurt you to stop that danger? Or are you disputing that it's a bad idea?

Now [you're] trying to change what the discussion was about. Pretty pathetic. That will not work.

This scenario was about what was going on in the shooter's mind and that is all.

If it was, this is the first indication of that fact.

It might be wise to re-quote the original post of the discussion:

Quote from: hazek on January 05, 2013, 09:29:31 AM

Quote from: luv2drnkbr on January 05, 2013, 08:40:24 AM

It is not a victimless crime. I could shoot a gun in public, randomly waving it about, and not hit a single person, but it's still a bad idea because the CHANCE of hurting another person was increased due to my actions. The fact that I didn't actually hit anybody doesn't change anything.

You've got it all wrong. It's not a bad idea because you might hurt someone, it's a bad idea because others might think their lives are in danger and they'll hurt you to stop you. Same goes for speeding.

Seems like the only discussion about what was going on in anyone's mind is about those he's (potentially) shooting at. The shooter's mind isn't discussed at all. So, who is trying to change the topic of discussion?

I never said that and that was not the original discussion. Maybe I need to quote it for you again because your lack of comprehension skill in context. I have bolded what you preceded to defend in latter comments.

Hazek - "It's not a bad idea because you might hurt someone (this is being spoken as the shooter), it's a bad idea because others might think their lives are in danger and they'll hurt you to stop you. "

Above comment was in response to: "I could shoot a gun in public, randomly waving it about, and not hit a single person, but it's still a bad idea because the CHANCE of hurting another person was increased due to my actions. The fact that I didn't actually hit anybody doesn't change anything."

myrkul

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Quote from: FirstAscent on January 05, 2013, 03:36:04 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: FirstAscent on January 05, 2013, 03:14:54 PM

It's a bad idea because you might hurt someone. But if you're a sicko, it's also a bad idea because others might think their lives are in danger and they'll hurt you to stop you. But if those others aren't up to the task of hurting you, it's also a bad idea because men in blue suits will either hurt you and/or try and put you in jail. Best also if you never had a device in the first place which can kill people in a second from hundreds of feet, and kill many people in a group separated by many feet and at a distance in seconds.

Not creepy.

Is it OK for some people to have "a device" "which can kill people in a second from hundreds of feet", but not others?

When regulated and trained and employed for the purpose of enforcing laws, yes. But note that countries with strict and effective gun control do not need their law enforcement members to draw and use their guns as often as those in America do.

I notice you say "enforcing laws," and not "protecting the citizenry" or even "keeping the peace." I wonder why that is....

FirstAscent

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: FirstAscent on January 05, 2013, 03:14:54 PM

It's a bad idea because you might hurt someone. But if you're a sicko, it's also a bad idea because others might think their lives are in danger and they'll hurt you to stop you. But if those others aren't up to the task of hurting you, it's also a bad idea because men in blue suits will either hurt you and/or try and put you in jail. Best also if you never had a device in the first place which can kill people in a second from hundreds of feet, and kill many people in a group separated by many feet and at a distance in seconds.

Not creepy.

Is it OK for some people to have "a device" "which can kill people in a second from hundreds of feet", but not others?

When regulated and trained and employed for the purpose of enforcing laws, yes. But note that countries with strict and effective gun control do not need their law enforcement members to draw and use their guns as often as those in America do.

myrkul

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Activity: 532

Merit: 500

FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Quote from: FirstAscent on January 05, 2013, 03:14:54 PM

Quote from: myrkul on January 05, 2013, 03:09:38 PM

Quote from: FirstAscent on January 05, 2013, 03:05:42 PM

It's a bad idea because you might hurt someone. But if you're a sicko, it's also a bad idea because these men in blue costumes will hurt you to stop you.

Not creepy.

It's a bad idea because you might hurt someone. But if you're a sicko, it's also a bad idea because others might think their lives are in danger and they'll hurt you to stop you.

Not creepy.

It's a bad idea because you might hurt someone. But if you're a sicko, it's also a bad idea because others might think their lives are in danger and they'll hurt you to stop you. But if those others aren't up to the task of hurting you, it's also a bad idea because men in blue suits will either hurt you and/or try and put you in jail. Best also if you never had a device in the first place which can kill people in a second from hundreds of feet, and kill many people in a group separated by many feet and at a distance in seconds.

Not creepy.

It's a bad idea because you might hurt someone. But if you're a sicko, it's also a bad idea because others might think their lives are in danger and they'll hurt you to stop you. But if those others aren't up to the task of hurting you, it's also a bad idea because men in blue suits will either hurt you and/or try and put you in jail. Best also if those other people never had a device in the first place which can hurt you to stop you.

Creepy.

Topic: Freedom is ... (Read 14428 times)