Topic: Freedom is ... - page 6. (Read 14428 times)

We don't. They will either see the benefit of it, or they won't, but they won't be allowed to enjoy the benefits of a community otherwise. They will also get a chance to see what contributing to a community actually gets them, which is something they currently can't with the government doing everything.


Subjective morals aside, contrary to popular belief, you can't actually get very far in business while being an asshole about it. The only way to get far in the private sector is to give others something they want. You can be a total asshole and still get elected or make money in politics though (e.g. Gingrich, lobbyists, etc). As for being self centered, again, the only way you can make your own self centered life better is by trading something with someone else, be it your money, your skills, or your good/services. So even if you are narcissistic and self centered, at least you gave a lot of other people things to get that way.

Except the government is not specialized. It's a hodgepodge of bureaucracy, where everyone tries to take on as little responsibility as possible, which attracts typically the least skilled in their fields thanks to it paying the lowest salary for those skills due to tax payers and politicians wanting to "save money" instead of "get the job done."

Indeed there are. And, except in the case of actual public goods, they would not receive the benefits of the programs they did not pay for. Thus, the brutal existence for them. If they remained irresponsible idiots, short as well.

If they can be done without force, and for profit, can you explain why they should not be?


They're irresponsible because they can be. Why get a job, when you can live off welfare and food stamps? Why save for retirement, when you can collect social security? Why save for a rainy day, when if you get fired, unemployment will pay you? I know you just want to help. I just wish that you would see that the help is what's causing the problems.

The only public goods you presented up there were Domestic Army ("national" defense), and infrastructure. The rest are either private goods, such as education, or not goods at all, such as elections. Infrastructure is easy to make profitable, or for that matter, turn into a private good. Toll roads, for instance.

The defense is a bit of a problem, since there is the positive externality of all the people who don't pay getting defended along with those who do. Of course, those who don't pay probably are taking care of their own defense, with a small arsenal of weapons. Therefore, they provide that same positive externality back to the community. Seems an equitable tradeoff to me. And as long as the defense company is able to run profitably, without charging so much that people stop paying, then they find it a fair trade as well.

That is your opinion and your entitled to it.  You should refrain from personal insults.  Quite unbecoming of a "Staff" member.

Ok, now I think I have a question to bridge this divide.  I can see at least this present company, our hearts are in the right place. 

Question:How do we get the general populous to start caring about their community and the people around them.  If I had faith in them to be the proper custodian then I would be much more open to a different decentralized form of government. 

The modern media culture shows basically messages that are narcissistic and self-centered.  About getting to the top no matter how ruthless.   The less morals you have and the more you will exploit yourself the better.   How do we combat this message?   How do we bring back honor in people actions?  Not all people because there are always exceptions but in most people.   

Switzerland doesn't have one. Every citizen owns a rifle and is trained to fight. That's a big reason Hitler didn't want to attack it.


Free clinics for those who need them, and hard lessons learned from not taking care of one's health, not knowing some basic health information, and not owning health insurance. Even if you are poor, if it's something as important as your life, I would hope people would be compelled to spend money on health rather than a new TV or video game (they don't, now, because they know if they get sick, they'll just go to the emergency room, and get treated using someone else's money). I'm actually very glad ObamaCare passed for this reason, even if a legal mandate isn't as "educational" as a hard life example.


Private power (already exists), private water (already exists), private rail (already exists), private roads and bridges (already exist), etc. Infrastructure actually hurts us in some way, by forcing us to stick with old technologies that new things can't compete against. Part of the reason the rail system in US sucks is because it can't compete with subsidized highways.


Private schools (especially if funded with "war" money)


Many prisons in US are already privately owned


won't exist or be needed


private collections by hobbyists (you should see mine), or museums funded by visitors


You are projecting your own selfishness on others. Also, people who are selfish and irresponsible will quite literally die off in AnCap society, where you NEED to build relationships and communities to survive. You can't just work 9-5 for a crappy wage, have your money taken to pay for things you yourself should be responsible for, and spend all your time sitting at home playing videogames without giving a crap about anyone else. Well, you could, but at the first bit of trouble you'd be royally screwed.

It all boils down to this: You think I must do something and instead of trying to persuade me to do it voluntarily and accept a potential rejection you think you should be able to use violence in order to force me to do it no matter what I want.

Bottom line, that's what you advocate and have shit for brains of calling it good.



You know what you are? You are an evil stupid bully/thug and you can go fuck yourself.

That is exactly how most seem to see libertarians and AnCaps, and it couldn't be further from the truth. I believe that I live in a community, and that I have responsibilities for it. I just think that my responsibilities should be voluntary, and that by "forcing" this responsibility on everyone, the government is essentially teaching everyone to completely abdicate their own responsibilities. Why should people care and be responsible if the government will just take their money and take care of things itself? The low voter turnouts pretty much show that people mostly don't care what their money goes to, and don't want to be responsible for how it's spent. Also, note that the point of doing taxes for everyone is to end up paying as little as possible. So, not only is the government teaching people to abdicate responsibilities, it's teaching them to avoid paying for as much of it as possible, too.
I could similarly argue that your side is the selfish one, where you are projecting your own selfishness on all people in general, believing that everyone is as selfish as you, and only contribute to society because they are forced to, not because they feel responsible for it.

- I will actually use your line, there are irresponsible idiots



- I have named these services many times so it feel redundant repeating this list.  I think you can figure those out yourself.   Hint: Domestic Army, Basic Preventative Health Care, Infrastructure, Education, Incarceration Facilities, Elections, Archival of Historic Records, etc....

These services should all be done not for profit and people should be required to pay.  No choice.  

No I don't think they can be paid for voluntarily because people are in whole pretty selfish and irresponsible.  This is why I think AnCap will never succeed unless you can change this aspect of human behavior.  I am not saying taking all selfishness away but we are WAY beyond a healthy amount.  Just look around and see the messages and the shit people say these days.  I know you agree with me there, you wouldn't be even thinking about this subject if the current culture didn't make you cringe.  

Try responding my comment about human behavior and lets see if we can make some progress.

To say nothing of the fact that private charity is significantly more efficient than tax-funded welfare programs.

I doubt that very much since in an AnCap society there'd be many many people far better of then they are today and so they'd much more easily afford to contribute to charities which could address those who actually were less fortunate.

Call it what you want, if I didn't agree to it, it's by definition slavery.

If you have empathy and compassion, why wouldn't you support those people voluntarily in an AnCap society? Just think, instead of just $500 of your annual $7,500 bill going to the needy, you could send them the entire $7,500?
Or is it that, by "compassion," you mean that you are compassionate enough to force others to take care of them, while giving the minimum effort yourself?

You'll notice I didn't include you on the list. If you'd like to be included on the list of "irresponsible idiots," you certainly can be.


But if it's mutually beneficial, who would not purchase such a service voluntarily?


Those are called, in economics, "public goods." Can you name some of those services? Can you think of some ways that they could be made profitable without resorting to forcing people to pay? Can you think of any ways that it might be paid for entirely voluntarily, with each person giving only as much as they desire?

Well there you go, you believe you live in a bubble and other live in bubbles and you do not recognize the community or the responsibility that go into maintaining a community.

You are wrong in that notion and I feel comfortable that your system will never catch on until you compromise on that issue among others.  My whole purpose of engaging in this debate was to get to this core issue.  You have a lack of take responsibilities for issues of your community that do not have a direct affect on you.  A selfish attitude and we already have plenty of this in the world today and is one of the reasons we are going down the tube.  

Boycotts, protests, ostracism, public shaming, vigilantism that doesn't wait for a legal process, angry mobs, and if it comes down to it, outright guerilla warfare and destruction of property. These may not be as clean, but they can and have been very effective.

They're not really responsibilities if they are basically forced on us. If I were to give money to a local school, I'd be taking on the responsibility for funding and growing our local education and workforce. Instead, I just see a bunch of money leaving my paycheck, and I have no idea where it's going. I can only assume a part of it is going to the school, but the "responsibility" is essentially forced upon m me.

Because there required, there is no option.   These are also services where your lack of participation increases cost on everyone while at the same time yo enjoy these services regardless if you are directly involved with them.

No, it is that we actually have empathy and compassion to people that are more disadvantaged that we are.   If we are going to talk about a society different than are current one, we would not just let them fall to the way side. 

And those who are dodging the rules at other's expense will be quickly forced to pay for those expenses - How will they be "forced" "quickly".   Sounds like speculation with no meat backing up that claim.  We have a current system with good and bad laws and we have clear cut criminal behavior and we can't force quick justice.   What makes you think in a system where we roll back government, they would speed up.  I think your purely speculating and that is all.