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Topic: Freedom is ... - page 2. (Read 14406 times)

hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
January 05, 2013, 04:14:54 PM
It's a bad idea because you might hurt someone. But if you're a sicko, it's also a bad idea because these men in blue costumes will hurt you to stop you.

Not creepy.

It's a bad idea because you might hurt someone. But if you're a sicko, it's also a bad idea because others might think their lives are in danger and they'll hurt you to stop you. But if those others aren't up to the task of hurting you, it's also a bad idea because men in blue suits will either hurt you and/or try and put you in jail. Best also if you never had a device in the first place which can kill people in a second from hundreds of feet, and kill many people in a group separated by many feet and at a distance in seconds.

Not creepy.

hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
January 05, 2013, 04:09:38 PM
It's a bad idea because you might hurt someone. But if you're a sicko, it's also a bad idea because these men in blue costumes will hurt you to stop you.

Not creepy.

It's a bad idea because you might hurt someone. But if you're a sicko, it's also a bad idea because others might think their lives are in danger and they'll hurt you to stop you.

Not creepy.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
January 05, 2013, 04:08:36 PM
It's a bad idea because you might hurt someone. But if you're a sicko, it's also a bad idea because these men in blue costumes will hurt you to stop you.

Not creepy.


That's meaningless because those who know they may hurt others and know that hurting others is wrong wont do it, only those who don't know that or don't know they might hurt others will do it therefor it really is just a bad idea because others will hurt you.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
January 05, 2013, 04:05:42 PM
It's a bad idea because you might hurt someone. But if you're a sicko, it's also a bad idea because these men in blue costumes will hurt you to stop you.

Not creepy.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
January 05, 2013, 04:01:10 PM
Quite scary that the threat of harm against them is what would stop them from randomly firing a gun in public, not that they might hit an innocent.  Scary.

You merely need to look outside to see all the gory evidence of people doing horrendous things to other people simply because they know they are untouchable. I never said it would take a threat of being hurt to stop me personally from endangering others because I actually care about other people but unfortunately not all people do and you can bet your life nothing other than the threat of violence will stop those kind of people.

And by demanding laws and a police force to enforce them you implicitly agree with me!

The only difference between my view and yours is that I want to reserve my freedom to protect myself. I don't need a police force and their rules and I don't agree to be a subject to their rules without my explicit consent. And I don't consent.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
January 05, 2013, 04:00:31 PM
You've got it all wrong. It's not a bad idea because you might hurt someone, it's a bad idea because others might think their lives are in danger and they'll hurt you to stop you. Same goes for speeding.

Creepy.

It's not a bad idea because you might hurt someone, it's a bad idea because these men in blue costumes will hurt you to stop you.

Creepy.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
January 05, 2013, 03:55:11 PM
And you think you're smart enough to live without any government... Roll Eyes

I am, but I have my doubts about Dalkore.

I did not misread anything, trying reading again.  

lets try that again:
This is why it's a bad idea:
because others might think their lives are in danger

And this is what happens when you act on that bad idea:
they'll hurt you to stop you.

Ok, your discredited as well.  I am done with this, I feel comfortable that Myrkul and Hazek's lack of common sense on something so basic is proof enough that you do not have the capacity to setup AnCap or any other system in a manner that would be beneficial and safe for the people in it.  I am serious.  I'll just let your comments on this stand and people and judge them all they want.  

Me personally, have enough common sense and compassion to know I would not randomly discharge a firearm in public because I would not want to hurt someone, not because someone might hurt me.  

So let me get this straight: You think that to solve a problem that actually exists of people doing stupid shit and endangering others is best solved by them deciding not to do it because they might hurt someone and if they still decide to do it there should be words on a piece of paper that tell them not to do it?

Can you not see the idiocy of this?

And lets not forget that you indirectly hold the exact same position. You want those words on a piece of paper and men in blue costumes with guns to enforce them which also boils down to "don't do it or these men in blue costumes will hurt you" and not some magical utopian "don't do it cause you might hurt someone".


And damn straight this is selfish, how could it not be when your mere existence is selfish if you are honest with yourself.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
January 05, 2013, 03:52:01 PM
You've got it all wrong. It's not a bad idea because you might hurt someone, it's a bad idea because others might think their lives are in danger and they'll hurt you to stop you. Same goes for speeding.

Creepy.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
January 05, 2013, 03:48:26 PM
You're right, I don't understand your position. Are you arguing that they will not think (correctly) that their lives are in danger? Or that they will not hurt you to stop that danger? Or are you disputing that it's a bad idea?

Now [you're] trying to change what the discussion was about.  Pretty pathetic.   That will not work.

This scenario was about what was going on in the shooter's mind and that is all.   
If it was, this is the first indication of that fact.

It might be wise to re-quote the original post of the discussion:
It is not a victimless crime.  I could shoot a gun in public, randomly waving it about, and not hit a single person, but it's still a bad idea because the CHANCE of hurting another person was increased due to my actions.  The fact that I didn't actually hit anybody doesn't change anything.

You've got it all wrong. It's not a bad idea because you might hurt someone, it's a bad idea because others might think their lives are in danger and they'll hurt you to stop you. Same goes for speeding.

Seems like the only discussion about what was going on in anyone's mind is about those he's (potentially) shooting at. The shooter's mind isn't discussed at all. So, who is trying to change the topic of discussion?
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1026
Mining since 2010 & Hosting since 2012
January 05, 2013, 03:29:53 PM
You're right, I don't understand your position. Are you arguing that they will not think (correctly) that their lives are in danger? Or that they will not hurt you to stop that danger? Or are you disputing that it's a bad idea?

Now your trying to change what the discussion was about.  Pretty pathetic.   That will not work.

This scenario was about what was going on in the shooter's mind and that is all.   
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
January 05, 2013, 03:18:53 PM
No its not better at all.  You literally don't get it.   Good luck. 
You're right, I don't understand your position. Are you arguing that they will not think (correctly) that their lives are in danger? Or that they will not hurt you to stop that danger? Or are you disputing that it's a bad idea?

Myrkul, I'm sorry for calling you a mental nut-case -- I got a little bit stressed as a result of my views disagreeing with your views.
Accepted. I don't mind a little disagreement, that's how progress gets made. Just try not to get stressed over some random stranger being wrong, and your life will be much calmer for it. Wink

In the example of the gunman randomly waving his weapon around and firing shots, what the potential victims 'think' doesn't alter the likelihood of them getting shot. Sure, they could try to intervene and disarm the madman, and that adds another variable to the story. The gunman could protect himself against retaliation by hiding his gun under a coat, or only shooting while hiding in the boot of a car -- does that somehow make his actions more moral? (No, it doesn't.)
No, it doesn't. But regardless of whether or not they actually have any chance of getting shot (you're shooting over their heads, whatever), it's still a bad idea to make them think you are endangering their lives. It's also a bad idea to actually harm anyone. This, however, is for entirely different reasons, and not particularly relevant. Unless you think that the gunman's intent was to harm, rather than just fire some shots randomly, not caring if anyone gets hurt?

I think you should take a holiday from all that Ayn Rand/Objectivism stuff, and maybe try to gain insight by looking into some completely different perspectives like Buddhism or something like that.
What makes you think I haven't examined Buddhism? In fact, I have examined every philosophy I could get my hands on, over the course of several years.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
January 05, 2013, 03:16:50 PM
Dalkore, blablahblah, and others,

These same absolutely absurd things have been discussed over and over, a year and more ago. What these scenarios reveal, is what you guys are coming to realize. And the arguments are circular as well, meaning that they keep following an extraordinarily long and crazy form of logic which ignores key points until you're right back at the beginning, having to go through it all again.

Were any of you here during the discussion about the knife juggler on the inflatable life raft with four other individuals, floating in the ocean, with sharks swimming around? The conversation was actually rather creepy in what it revealed about these people. There was even mention of the first guy in the life raft as having a claim of ownership on the raft, but then it proceeded on to discussion about the knife juggler practicing juggling on board the raft...
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1026
Mining since 2010 & Hosting since 2012
January 05, 2013, 02:35:14 PM
And you think you're smart enough to live without any government... Roll Eyes

I am, but I have my doubts about Dalkore.

I did not misread anything, trying reading again. 

lets try that again:
This is why it's a bad idea:
because others might think their lives are in danger

And this is what happens when you act on that bad idea:
they'll hurt you to stop you.

He said RANDOMLY waving it about, you mental nut-case. Thus the danger to anyone within range is real, not imagined. If you can't figure such simple things out, you are not fit to live in a society free from government. Yet another reason for governments to exist: to protect others from the dangers posed by people with your dangerous attitude.

It seems your whole argument hinges on the selection of the word "might" in hazek's post. Let's try again with a different word:
This is why it's a bad idea:
because others [will] think their lives are in danger

And this is what happens when you act on that bad idea:
they'll hurt you to stop you.

Is that better?

No its not better at all.  You literally don't get it.   Good luck. 
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
January 05, 2013, 02:29:58 PM
And you think you're smart enough to live without any government... Roll Eyes

I am, but I have my doubts about Dalkore.

I did not misread anything, trying reading again. 

lets try that again:
This is why it's a bad idea:
because others might think their lives are in danger

And this is what happens when you act on that bad idea:
they'll hurt you to stop you.

He said RANDOMLY waving it about, you mental nut-case. Thus the danger to anyone within range is real, not imagined. If you can't figure such simple things out, you are not fit to live in a society free from government. Yet another reason for governments to exist: to protect others from the dangers posed by people with your dangerous attitude.

It seems your whole argument hinges on the selection of the word "might" in hazek's post. Let's try again with a different word:
This is why it's a bad idea:
because others [will] think their lives are in danger

And this is what happens when you act on that bad idea:
they'll hurt you to stop you.

Is that better?
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1026
Mining since 2010 & Hosting since 2012
January 05, 2013, 02:19:42 PM
Just leave them be, they have shown themselves and discredited their opinions based on a lack of common sense or a sense or right and wrong.  Can't trust what they say at this point.  I would not feel safe around them in person with these attitudes. 

Arrrrr!!!!!.... Fine... Wink

Mind you, I went to a firing range one time, and there were quite a lot of people with really dilated pupils -- it seems handling a gun often gives people an adrenaline rush which they might find addictive. This would explain a lot...

I am sad actually, I was surprised to see this reckless comment.  It is really telling in my opinion on how they see the world. 


Quite scary that the threat of harm against them is what would stop them from randomly firing a gun in public, not that they might hit an innocent.  Scary.
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1026
Mining since 2010 & Hosting since 2012
January 05, 2013, 02:12:40 PM
And you think you're smart enough to live without any government... Roll Eyes

I am, but I have my doubts about Dalkore.

I did not misread anything, trying reading again. 

lets try that again:
This is why it's a bad idea:
because others might think their lives are in danger

And this is what happens when you act on that bad idea:
they'll hurt you to stop you.

He said RANDOMLY waving it about, you mental nut-case. Thus the danger to anyone within range is real, not imagined. If you can't figure such simple things out, you are not fit to live in a society free from government. Yet another reason for governments to exist: to protect others from the dangers posed by people with your dangerous attitude.

Just leave them be, they have shown themselves and discredited their opinions based on a lack of common sense or a sense or right and wrong.  Can't trust what they say at this point.  I would not feel safe around them in person with these attitudes. 
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1026
Mining since 2010 & Hosting since 2012
January 05, 2013, 02:09:19 PM
And you think you're smart enough to live without any government... Roll Eyes

I am, but I have my doubts about Dalkore.

I did not misread anything, trying reading again.  

lets try that again:
This is why it's a bad idea:
because others might think their lives are in danger

And this is what happens when you act on that bad idea:
they'll hurt you to stop you.

Ok, your discredited as well.  I am done with this, I feel comfortable that Myrkul and Hazek's lack of common sense on something so basic is proof enough that you do not have the capacity to setup AnCap or any other system in a manner that would be beneficial and safe for the people in it.  I am serious.  I'll just let your comments on this stand and people and judge them all they want.  

Me personally, have enough common sense and compassion to know I would not randomly discharge a firearm in public because I would not want to hurt someone, not because someone might hurt me. 
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
January 05, 2013, 02:02:41 PM
And you think you're smart enough to live without any government... Roll Eyes

I am, but I have my doubts about Dalkore.

I did not misread anything, trying reading again. 

lets try that again:
This is why it's a bad idea:
because others might think their lives are in danger

And this is what happens when you act on that bad idea:
they'll hurt you to stop you.
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1026
Mining since 2010 & Hosting since 2012
January 05, 2013, 01:56:39 PM
You want to tell me what good a speeding ticket does the person who is harmed as a result of a driver speeding? (Assuming anyone is actually harmed... and if not, who gives a fuck?)

Victimless crimes FTW.

It is not a victimless crime.  I could shoot a gun in public, randomly waving it about, and not hit a single person, but it's still a bad idea because the CHANCE of hurting another person was increased due to my actions.  The fact that I didn't actually hit anybody doesn't change anything.

You've got it all wrong. It's not a bad idea because you might hurt someone, it's a bad idea because others might think their lives are in danger and they'll hurt you to stop you. Same goes for speeding.

So let me get this straight, waving a gun in public and randomly discharging it is not a bad idea because you might hurt someone?  But instead it is because someone might hurt me?   That is one of the most selfish statements I have ever heard.  I am sorry but unless you restate this, you discredit yourself on the grounds of your lack of judgement and common sense.  How can we take your opinions on this as reasonable if they is your thoughts on waving and firing a gun in public randomly.  

Apparently you misread that.
it's a bad idea because others might think their lives are in danger

I did not misread anything, trying reading again.  Here is the direct quote.  I know your not stupid so what gives?

Hazek  - "It's not a bad idea because you might hurt someone, it's a bad idea because others might think their lives are in danger and they'll hurt you to stop you. "

Above comment was in response to:  " I could shoot a gun in public, randomly waving it about, and not hit a single person, but it's still a bad idea because the CHANCE of hurting another person was increased due to my actions.  The fact that I didn't actually hit anybody doesn't change anything."
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
January 05, 2013, 01:48:11 PM
You want to tell me what good a speeding ticket does the person who is harmed as a result of a driver speeding? (Assuming anyone is actually harmed... and if not, who gives a fuck?)

Victimless crimes FTW.

It is not a victimless crime.  I could shoot a gun in public, randomly waving it about, and not hit a single person, but it's still a bad idea because the CHANCE of hurting another person was increased due to my actions.  The fact that I didn't actually hit anybody doesn't change anything.

You've got it all wrong. It's not a bad idea because you might hurt someone, it's a bad idea because others might think their lives are in danger and they'll hurt you to stop you. Same goes for speeding.

So let me get this straight, waving a gun in public and randomly discharging it is not a bad idea because you might hurt someone?  But instead it is because someone might hurt me?   That is one of the most selfish statements I have ever heard.  I am sorry but unless you restate this, you discredit yourself on the grounds of your lack of judgement and common sense.  How can we take your opinions on this as reasonable if they is your thoughts on waving and firing a gun in public randomly.   

Apparently you misread that.
it's a bad idea because others might think their lives are in danger
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