yay, another pump and dump altcoin 
whos going to scam first? 
whos going to scam first? Actually, I'm inclined to believe this one has legitimate roots. It's been over a year in the making and has been done mostly in public.
Topic: FreiCoin (FRC) discussion (was FreiCoin (FRC) for TRC, PPC, LTC or BTC) - page 21. (Read 42644 times)
December 23, 2012, 09:09:45 PM
Actually, I'm inclined to believe this one has legitimate roots. It's been over a year in the making and has been done mostly in public.
December 23, 2012, 08:01:05 PM
Who is the dev or dev team behind freicoin? I haven't really heard much about this one before.
Looks like maaku did most of the coding work and jtimon is an expert on its economic theory.
I am not a big fan of the idea of demurage but happy to see the work done and being validated on the market. That's always my thinking that you don't have to convince me in theory, you can let the market demonstrate it to me. Of course it's still too early but hopefully we can observe in the future whether bitcoin/freicoin can complement each other with freicoin a better medium of exchange, reducing interest rate and helping credit formation etc.
December 23, 2012, 08:00:05 PM
I'm the primary developer. @jtimon originated the idea and has been involved since the start. There's a few other people who have contributed code, and they're mentioned in the "About" dialog of the client.
December 23, 2012, 07:28:26 PM
Who is the dev or dev team behind freicoin? I haven't really heard much about this one before.
December 23, 2012, 07:06:52 PM
The problem I have with FreiCoin is that it actually favors the top 1% at the expense of the remaining 99% its origins in the Occupy Movement not withstanding. It does not punish large savers at all since they can cost effectively lend or invest out their Freicoin; however it punishes small savers. This is precisely the same problem with USD.
Consider the following. two cases:
1) Go to JP Morgan with say 100,000,000 USD to invest and say you need to beat the rate of inflation to protect your capital and they will easily be able to accommodate you.
2) Now repeat the above but with only 100 USD and you will be shown the door.
With FreiCoin or USD the person with the 100 USD suffers the ravages of demurage or inflation as the case may be, while the person with the 100,000,000 USD does not. On the other hand with Bitcoin both persons are in the same boat and are protected from demurage or inflation.
Consider the following. two cases:
1) Go to JP Morgan with say 100,000,000 USD to invest and say you need to beat the rate of inflation to protect your capital and they will easily be able to accommodate you.
2) Now repeat the above but with only 100 USD and you will be shown the door.
With FreiCoin or USD the person with the 100 USD suffers the ravages of demurage or inflation as the case may be, while the person with the 100,000,000 USD does not. On the other hand with Bitcoin both persons are in the same boat and are protected from demurage or inflation.
You are conflating money-as-store-of-value and money-as-medium-of-exchange. Which is understandable as nearly every monetary system in existence makes the same mistake.
With Freicoin we are purposefully making a system that people will not want to use as a store-of-value. If you're sitting on a pile of freicoins wondering what to do with it, the answer is simple: invest it in something else. That something else could even be bitcoins, which complement Freicoin as an excellent store-of-value (but terrible medium-of-exchange if you're anything other than an Austrian-school economist).
The problem with this argument is that it is not cost effective for the poor to exchange back and forth between Freicoin and Bitcoin while it is very cost effective for the rich to exchange between Freicoin and Bitcoin. So the net effect is that the poor will not be able to effectively hedge against the demurage while the rich will be able to hedge.
What we have with Freicoin is an effort by the Occupy Movement to make the top 1% richer at the expense to the remaining 99%, and why is Bitcoin such a poor medium of exchange especially for poor people in any case?
December 23, 2012, 06:22:59 PM
yay, another pump and dump altcoin whos going to scam first?
whos going to scam first? Actually, I'm inclined to believe this one has legitimate roots. It's been over a year in the making and has been done mostly in public.
December 23, 2012, 06:09:52 PM
yay, another pump and dump altcoin whos going to scam first?
whos going to scam first? December 23, 2012, 05:52:26 PM
If someone wants to put up the other 5k FRC I have an offer for 10k FRC. (edit: this deal is planned for after Christmas, if you are mining and want to commit some output please PM)
FRC is REALLY new, which might be part of the valuation, the 80% being given to charity may also play a role.
FRC is REALLY new, which might be part of the valuation, the 80% being given to charity may also play a role.
December 23, 2012, 05:47:57 PM
The problem I have with FreiCoin is that it actually favors the top 1% at the expense of the remaining 99% its origins in the Occupy Movement not withstanding. It does not punish large savers at all since they can cost effectively lend or invest out their Freicoin; however it punishes small savers. This is precisely the same problem with USD.
Consider the following. two cases:
1) Go to JP Morgan with say 100,000,000 USD to invest and say you need to beat the rate of inflation to protect your capital and they will easily be able to accommodate you.
2) Now repeat the above but with only 100 USD and you will be shown the door.
With FreiCoin or USD the person with the 100 USD suffers the ravages of demurage or inflation as the case may be, while the person with the 100,000,000 USD does not. On the other hand with Bitcoin both persons are in the same boat and are protected from demurage or inflation.
Consider the following. two cases:
1) Go to JP Morgan with say 100,000,000 USD to invest and say you need to beat the rate of inflation to protect your capital and they will easily be able to accommodate you.
2) Now repeat the above but with only 100 USD and you will be shown the door.
With FreiCoin or USD the person with the 100 USD suffers the ravages of demurage or inflation as the case may be, while the person with the 100,000,000 USD does not. On the other hand with Bitcoin both persons are in the same boat and are protected from demurage or inflation.
You are conflating money-as-store-of-value and money-as-medium-of-exchange. Which is understandable as nearly every monetary system in existence makes the same mistake.
With Freicoin we are purposefully making a system that people will not want to use as a store-of-value. If you're sitting on a pile of freicoins wondering what to do with it, the answer is simple: invest it in something else. That something else could even be bitcoins, which complement Freicoin as an excellent store-of-value (but terrible medium-of-exchange if you're anything other than an Austrian-school economist).
December 23, 2012, 05:25:39 PM
1000 FRC still available.
Current offers are in the range of 100:1 for BTC, but are looking for different quantities.
Current offers are in the range of 100:1 for BTC, but are looking for different quantities.
People are offering a bitcoin per hundred FReiCoin???
Isn't litecoin only about half a bitcoin per hundred? So that you are saying people are valuing freicoin at about twice the value of litecoin???
-MarkM -
December 23, 2012, 04:49:34 PM
The problem I have with FreiCoin is that it actually favors the top 1% at the expense of the remaining 99% its origins in the Occupy Movement not withstanding. It does not punish large savers at all since they can cost effectively lend or invest out their Freicoin; however it punishes small savers. This is precisely the same problem with USD.
Consider the following. two cases:
1) Go to JP Morgan with say 100,000,000 USD to invest and say you need to beat the rate of inflation to protect your capital and they will easily be able to accommodate you.
2) Now repeat the above but with only 100 USD and you will be shown the door.
With FreiCoin or USD the person with the 100 USD suffers the ravages of demurage or inflation as the case may be, while the person with the 100,000,000 USD does not. On the other hand with Bitcoin both persons are in the same boat and are protected from demurage or inflation.
Consider the following. two cases:
1) Go to JP Morgan with say 100,000,000 USD to invest and say you need to beat the rate of inflation to protect your capital and they will easily be able to accommodate you.
2) Now repeat the above but with only 100 USD and you will be shown the door.
With FreiCoin or USD the person with the 100 USD suffers the ravages of demurage or inflation as the case may be, while the person with the 100,000,000 USD does not. On the other hand with Bitcoin both persons are in the same boat and are protected from demurage or inflation.
December 23, 2012, 04:02:06 PM
Can someone please explain algorithmically how the reward algorithm works? I'm not understanding the 0% interest rate or statements like
Value of what? So 5% of any coins I hold are destroyed each year? Isn't that a disincentive to do anything but spend coins?
Code:
Freicoin is an implementation of Bitcoin which loses approximately 5% of its value per year.
Value of what? So 5% of any coins I hold are destroyed each year? Isn't that a disincentive to do anything but spend coins?
No thanks. We already have a currency in place that punishes savers. It's called US Dollars.
December 23, 2012, 03:50:26 PM
December 23, 2012, 02:41:54 PM
Can someone please explain algorithmically how the reward algorithm works? I'm not understanding the 0% interest rate or statements like
Value of what? So 5% of any coins I hold are destroyed each year? Isn't that a disincentive to do anything but spend coins?
Code:
Freicoin is an implementation of Bitcoin which loses approximately 5% of its value per year.
Value of what? So 5% of any coins I hold are destroyed each year? Isn't that a disincentive to do anything but spend coins?
Is an incentive to do anything but hoard (at least hold big quantities). You can always lend or invest. The point is to maintain velocity more or less constant.
December 23, 2012, 01:51:53 PM
@dreamwatcher: are you handling demurrage correctly? I can help you out.
Join us on #freicoin on IRC.
Join us on #freicoin on IRC.
As far as the Block explorer is concerned, it just sees the demurrage as a normal coin-base transaction split between two addresses.
One for the miner (246) and the (496) I would assume goes to demurrage .ABE does not care where it goes, it is simply reads the Tx script and reports address and amount of the transactions. If there is a need for special handling of the demurrage amounts, please let me know in the Crytocoin Explorer thread (Do not want to hijack this thread..
)https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/cryptocoin-explorer-coin-block-explorers-124303
Transaction Fee Size (kB) From (amount) To (amount)
eecb4c9348... 0 0.141 Generation: 742.6326965 + 0 total fees 115VoJrLiRfk2Q2ffUfFzJyeVPr7geTV34: 246.60095046
1MrQWWNKfVseYyGkyyLsDhFekJWGJNt2i9: 496.03174604
December 23, 2012, 01:48:47 PM
Can someone please explain algorithmically how the reward algorithm works? I'm not understanding the 0% interest rate or statements like
Value of what? So 5% of any coins I hold are destroyed each year? Isn't that a disincentive to do anything but spend coins?
Code:
Freicoin is an implementation of Bitcoin which loses approximately 5% of its value per year.
Value of what? So 5% of any coins I hold are destroyed each year? Isn't that a disincentive to do anything but spend coins?
December 23, 2012, 01:30:28 PM
@dreamwatcher: are you handling demurrage correctly? I can help you out.
Join us on #freicoin on IRC.
Join us on #freicoin on IRC.
December 23, 2012, 01:25:08 PM
Due to the unique nature of demurrage, further modification of the explorer is needed.
I will keep you posted in the cryptocoin explorer thread.
Good Luck Freicoin...You have some competition in the Alt-coin world. But I try to support as many as I can.
December 23, 2012, 01:21:45 PM
It's purpose is to lower basic interest rates to 0%, which has far reaching consequences. The best economic overview of Freicoin is available from our about page: Freicoin: a P2P digital currency delivering freedom from usury.
For a detailed analysis of the economics underlying Freicoin, go to the source: Silvio Gesell's Natural Economic Order.
Freicoin outputs lose value by a factor of 2**-20 with each found block, resulting in a loss of approximately 4.9% per annum (assuming constant hash power).
Freicoin has a maximum monetary base of approx. 10**16 satoshis (100MM), albeit with a perpetual reward equal to the number of coins lost to demurrage.
I wouldn't call the Indiegogo failed since it payed for the build and deployment infrastructure and kept us solvent We just had to scale back our scope a little bit.
For a detailed analysis of the economics underlying Freicoin, go to the source: Silvio Gesell's Natural Economic Order.
Freicoin outputs lose value by a factor of 2**-20 with each found block, resulting in a loss of approximately 4.9% per annum (assuming constant hash power).
Freicoin has a maximum monetary base of approx. 10**16 satoshis (100MM), albeit with a perpetual reward equal to the number of coins lost to demurrage.
I wouldn't call the Indiegogo failed since it payed for the build and deployment infrastructure and kept us solvent
We just had to scale back our scope a little bit. December 23, 2012, 04:33:25 AM
where u get these from?? got a link to the client / daemon? and whitepaper, pools etc?
website: http://freico.in/
Forums: www.freicoin.org
Github: https://github.com/freicoin/freicoin
The forums are a mess, I'm still trying to sort it out, here's a quick dump.
It was referenced in a "lost bitcoins" conversation recently, so I grabbed the client (released on 12-21-12) and started solo mining.
I'm still looking for more information
It's been in the works a while:
Original project announcement thread:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/freicoin-bitcoin-with-demurrage-3816
Article from June
http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/onepercent/2012/06/freicoin-occupys-online-curren.html
Failed Indiegogo pitch:
http://www.indiegogo.com/freicoin
Beta started this fall, and the chain was reset on 12-21-12 for production.
It's an odd critter. It's a demurrage based currency where your coins are constantly losing 4%/year which is paid to miners as a subsidy. It's brainchild came out of the 99% movement so it's aimed at disincentivising hoarding and lowering interest rates. I don't quite get how this could work with other currencies in existence, but the slow 4% seep rate may not matter too much in the end. It may just be like bitcoin but with skewed interest rates and less desire to hold.
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