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Topic: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork - page 6. (Read 9870 times)

hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 506
I prefer Zakir over Muhammed when mentioning me!
And nobody actually read his post.

This is the biggest amount of FUD I have seen in a long time.

Quote
What do other people think?


If we can't come to an agreement soon, then I'll ask for help
reviewing/submitting patches to Mike's Bitcoin-Xt project that implement a
big increase now that grows over time so we may never have to go through
all this rancor and debate again.

I'll then ask for help lobbying the merchant services and exchanges and
hosted wallet companies and other bitcoind-using-infrastructure companies
(and anybody who agrees with me that we need bigger blocks sooner rather
than later) to run Bitcoin-Xt instead of Bitcoin Core, and state that they
are running it. We'll be able to see uptake on the network by monitoring
client versions.

Perhaps by the time that happens there will be consensus bigger blocks are
needed sooner rather than later; if so, great! The early deployment will
just serve as early testing, and all of the software already deployed will
ready for bigger blocks.

But if there is still no consensus among developers but the "bigger blocks
now" movement is successful, I'll ask for help getting big miners to do the
same, and use the soft-fork block version voting mechanism to (hopefully)
get a majority and then a super-majority willing to produce bigger blocks.
The purpose of that process is to prove to any doubters that they'd better
start supporting bigger blocks or they'll be left behind, and to give them
a chance to upgrade before that happens.


Because if we can't come to consensus here, the ultimate authority for
determining consensus is what code the majority of merchants and exchanges
and miners are running.


--
--
Gavin Andresen

Please point to the place where "Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork"

What exactly is BitcoinXT? is it an altcoin?

Bitcoin XT is a patch set on top of Bitcoin Core, with a focus on upgrades to the peer to peer protocol. By running it you can opt in to providing the Bitcoin network with additional services beyond what Bitcoin Core nodes provide. - https://github.com/bitcoinxt/bitcoinxt/blob/0.10.1/README.md
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1043
:^)
What exactly is BitcoinXT? is it an altcoin?
full member
Activity: 882
Merit: 102
PayAccept - Worldwide payments accepted in seconds
I think it's good Gavin finally understood he needs to make an altcoin.
I just hope he'll leave Bitcoin alone then.
hero member
Activity: 821
Merit: 1000
About time someone will balls took the bull by the horns ...
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
Though we know that even if Gavin supported this fork and the network stays on mining the current fork, still there will be doubts among the general public seeing that one of the prominent figures in bitcoin leaves for another project.


The general public doesn't care.  Hell, half the people in this community don't care beyond whether or not it will affect Bitcoin price.  By necessity, the devs take a much longer term view of Bitcoin than most users and price is not - and should not be - their primary concern.

People leave projects all the time, often for projects similar to those they're leaving. 

It seems to me that what people are worried about is that Bitcoin users will make the "wrong" decision and back the "wrong" horse.  Maybe they will, but that possibility isn't a good reason to deny them the choice.
hero member
Activity: 602
Merit: 500
just increase the block size and make it scalable.  it is silly that people want to keep it small.  Bitcoin needs to scale to grow.  

I don't see any reason to panic .. what is the worst that can happen with the fork?  It's more of a technical issue for the nerds .. not affecting consumers

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/to-fill-gavincoin-blocks-up-to-the-max-of-20mb-is-relatively-cheap-1075532

40 Million is the price to spam the blockchain to 1 Terrabyte HD use.
#justsayin'
Do you want to download 2,88 GB every day just to use Gavincoin? Because that'll be the reality when someone who doesn't like Gavincoin with a little money decides he wants to spam it. And you'll be waiting just as long for your txs as you would on 1MB blocks ...
hero member
Activity: 492
Merit: 500
I'm nobody, but FWIW I appreciate your effort, Elwar.
legendary
Activity: 3598
Merit: 2386
Viva Ut Vivas
I'll just start posting the truth on all of these FUD threads.

Here is Gavin's question on a discussion board:
Quote
What do other people think?


If we can't come to an agreement soon, then I'll ask for help
reviewing/submitting patches to Mike's Bitcoin-Xt project that implement a
big increase now that grows over time so we may never have to go through
all this rancor and debate again.

I'll then ask for help lobbying the merchant services and exchanges and
hosted wallet companies and other bitcoind-using-infrastructure companies
(and anybody who agrees with me that we need bigger blocks sooner rather
than later) to run Bitcoin-Xt instead of Bitcoin Core, and state that they
are running it. We'll be able to see uptake on the network by monitoring
client versions.

Perhaps by the time that happens there will be consensus bigger blocks are
needed sooner rather than later; if so, great! The early deployment will
just serve as early testing, and all of the software already deployed will
ready for bigger blocks.

But if there is still no consensus among developers but the "bigger blocks
now" movement is successful, I'll ask for help getting big miners to do the
same, and use the soft-fork block version voting mechanism to (hopefully)
get a majority and then a super-majority willing to produce bigger blocks.
The purpose of that process is to prove to any doubters that they'd better
start supporting bigger blocks or they'll be left behind, and to give them
a chance to upgrade before that happens.


Because if we can't come to consensus here, the ultimate authority for
determining consensus is what code the majority of merchants and exchanges
and miners are running.


--
--
Gavin Andresen
hero member
Activity: 492
Merit: 500
Under 'gavincoin', 20MB is not the mandatory size of all new blocks. It's the maximum blocksize. If, as you say, Bitcoin is chugging along comfortably right now at 1 transaction a second, it's not suddenly going to jump to 20MB blocks overnight. OTOH if it DOES do that, it rather suggests that the 1 tr/sec was a bottleneck choking the system, doesn't it? That 20MB isn't going to be filled up unless the transactors need it to be, in which case it's a damn good job it was there.

However, if it was the bottleneck, then we would see tons of 1 Mb blocks right now, and there aren't. The average blocksize right now is around 0.5 Mb.

Right. And I presented you with an either/or situation, and you have identified one of the branches does not apply. Therefore I contend the other one does. Since Bitcoin is not currently filling up 1MB blocks, there is no worry that block sizes will immediately become 20MB when the limit is raised. If and when they do it will be because it was NEEDED.
legendary
Activity: 1778
Merit: 1042
#Free market
If BTC s all about decentralization, one person must not effect BTC development.

On the other hand, I think he s right and XT is a way for BTC to go.

Without him a lot of people will dump BTC so he is needed in the bitcoin world but he should not say these things.... you and me and all the other users are free or maybe it is not right what I'm saying?

Yes of course, we are free to choose if follow or not follow the gavin proposal but also if the majority of normal users like me and you (not miners) will stay in the actual chain and the big miner farm will follow the other chain ... then in that case it will be really a problem.
full member
Activity: 189
Merit: 100
If BTC s all about decentralization, one person must not effect BTC development.

On the other hand, I think he s right and XT is a way for BTC to go.

Without him a lot of people will dump BTC so he is needed in the bitcoin world but he should not say these things.... you and me and all the other users are free or maybe it is not right what I'm saying?
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1007
DMD Diamond Making Money 4+ years! Join us!
If BTC s all about decentralization, one person must not effect BTC development.

On the other hand, I think he s right and XT is a way for BTC to go.
full member
Activity: 246
Merit: 100
If you allow Gavin to do this whose to say he won't do it again in 3-4 years??? First it's a dispute over blocksize, then what comes next?
legendary
Activity: 1778
Merit: 1042
#Free market
i was wrong on the limit 7 too, i thought as well that it was around 7, but this guy corrected me, and he have a point

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.11458645


Thanks for the thread, here an interesting reply:

but another question could be raised now, does 140 per second are enough if we reach fully adoption? or we need to raise it again in the future?
That's the problem we really care about. we can't raise it again and again. We should find a way to solve this problem forever. That's the real solution for us.


I think he was (is) right, because this is not a solution at all... later the dev should increase again the limit and 20 MB will be really useless and we start a new 'conflict' for 100 MB or more....

Bitcoin should not be in competition with the other system of payment (in a tx/sec point of view). It should compete in other way...
legendary
Activity: 3206
Merit: 1069
i was wrong on the limit 7 too, i thought as well that it was around 7, but this guy corrected me, and he have a point

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.11458645
staff
Activity: 3374
Merit: 6530
Just writing some code
"If you’re not really a fan of digesting the technical aspects of Bitcoin and how it works, this probably wouldn’t be of concern to you. However, chances are that most Bitcoin users from all around the world hope that Bitcoin will actually become the currency of the future, but how can that really happen in the case that it currently only handles 7 transactions per second? Yes, that’s right. Each second, only 7 people are able to make a transaction, which is mostly due to the block size limit of a Bitcoin. To put things into a better perspective, only 420 people can make a transaction during the same minute. While this may seem like a large number, it definitely isn’t as nobody wants to wait minutes or even seconds before a transaction is actually completed."

Source: http://themerkle.com/coins/overcoming-7-transactions-per-second-bitcoin-limit/

Most probably the article is wrong but I have aòways thought 7 tx/sec (now the average size of each block is 0.55 MB).
I feel that the tx/sec measurement is misleading. With the current limit, a block can have about 5000 txs. This averages down to 8 tx/s and with the varying size of transactions and the extra data with a block, about 7 tx/sec. However, this doesn't mean that only 7 txs can be created and broadcast per second. You could theoretically have 5000 txs broadcast per second, and have 5000 tx/sec. But, only 5000 txs are put into a block and confirmed, which means that for more transactions to be confirmed, a larger block size is required.
newbie
Activity: 12
Merit: 0
Yeah, try telling that to people when they try to use BTC and there are so many transactions per second that shit takes ages to get confirmed etc.

That's not how transaction bottlenecks work. They work in precisely the opposite way - transactions take ages to get confirmed when there isn't enough room in the block for them.

Maybe I was a bit premature to say the thread turned the corner.  Sad


Except that there's around 1 transaction a second(Actually slightly less) in Bitcoin, which is basically nothing, so what Gavin is doing, is rushing things exponentially. Makes Zero sense and will deter people from running nodes if the blocksize is moved upto 20 MB so early. But hey, that's Bitcoin's centralization coming into full view for ya.

Under 'gavincoin', 20MB is not the mandatory size of all new blocks. It's the maximum blocksize. If, as you say, Bitcoin is chugging along comfortably right now at 1 transaction a second, it's not suddenly going to jump to 20MB blocks overnight. OTOH if it DOES do that, it rather suggests that the 1 tr/sec was a bottleneck choking the system, doesn't it? That 20MB isn't going to be filled up unless the transactors need it to be, in which case it's a damn good job it was there.


No, the actual bitcoin can manage ~7 tx/sec... stop to say thing really no sense. Again, bitcoin should not compete with visa if we are talking about how much tx can manage *sec...because visa or other system will win surely. Bitcoin should compete as trust,rapidity and not chargeability.

it's more around 3-4 tx per second, because there are multisig, and because one trasaction includ input and output, 7 is just far-strected...

A decentralized system at this current stage cannot compete with a centralized system in terms of speed. Not in the least. Trying to put Bitcoin against VISA in speed will always be a losing battle for the moment. So...
legendary
Activity: 1778
Merit: 1042
#Free market
Yeah, try telling that to people when they try to use BTC and there are so many transactions per second that shit takes ages to get confirmed etc.

That's not how transaction bottlenecks work. They work in precisely the opposite way - transactions take ages to get confirmed when there isn't enough room in the block for them.

Maybe I was a bit premature to say the thread turned the corner.  Sad


Except that there's around 1 transaction a second(Actually slightly less) in Bitcoin, which is basically nothing, so what Gavin is doing, is rushing things exponentially. Makes Zero sense and will deter people from running nodes if the blocksize is moved upto 20 MB so early. But hey, that's Bitcoin's centralization coming into full view for ya.

Under 'gavincoin', 20MB is not the mandatory size of all new blocks. It's the maximum blocksize. If, as you say, Bitcoin is chugging along comfortably right now at 1 transaction a second, it's not suddenly going to jump to 20MB blocks overnight. OTOH if it DOES do that, it rather suggests that the 1 tr/sec was a bottleneck choking the system, doesn't it? That 20MB isn't going to be filled up unless the transactors need it to be, in which case it's a damn good job it was there.


No, the actual bitcoin can manage ~7 tx/sec... stop to say thing really no sense. Again, bitcoin should not compete with visa if we are talking about how much tx can manage *sec...because visa or other system will win surely. Bitcoin should compete as trust,rapidity and not chargeability.

it's more around 3-4 tx per second, because there are multisig, and because one trasaction includ input and output, 7 is just far-strected...


"If you’re not really a fan of digesting the technical aspects of Bitcoin and how it works, this probably wouldn’t be of concern to you. However, chances are that most Bitcoin users from all around the world hope that Bitcoin will actually become the currency of the future, but how can that really happen in the case that it currently only handles 7 transactions per second? Yes, that’s right. Each second, only 7 people are able to make a transaction, which is mostly due to the block size limit of a Bitcoin. To put things into a better perspective, only 420 people can make a transaction during the same minute. While this may seem like a large number, it definitely isn’t as nobody wants to wait minutes or even seconds before a transaction is actually completed."

Source: http://themerkle.com/coins/overcoming-7-transactions-per-second-bitcoin-limit/

Most probably the article is wrong but I have aòways thought 7 tx/sec (now the average size of each block is 0.55 MB).
legendary
Activity: 1232
Merit: 1001
mining is so 2012-2013
just increase the block size and make it scalable.  it is silly that people want to keep it small.  Bitcoin needs to scale to grow. 
legendary
Activity: 3206
Merit: 1069
Yeah, try telling that to people when they try to use BTC and there are so many transactions per second that shit takes ages to get confirmed etc.

That's not how transaction bottlenecks work. They work in precisely the opposite way - transactions take ages to get confirmed when there isn't enough room in the block for them.

Maybe I was a bit premature to say the thread turned the corner.  Sad


Except that there's around 1 transaction a second(Actually slightly less) in Bitcoin, which is basically nothing, so what Gavin is doing, is rushing things exponentially. Makes Zero sense and will deter people from running nodes if the blocksize is moved upto 20 MB so early. But hey, that's Bitcoin's centralization coming into full view for ya.

Under 'gavincoin', 20MB is not the mandatory size of all new blocks. It's the maximum blocksize. If, as you say, Bitcoin is chugging along comfortably right now at 1 transaction a second, it's not suddenly going to jump to 20MB blocks overnight. OTOH if it DOES do that, it rather suggests that the 1 tr/sec was a bottleneck choking the system, doesn't it? That 20MB isn't going to be filled up unless the transactors need it to be, in which case it's a damn good job it was there.


No, the actual bitcoin can manage ~7 tx/sec... stop to say thing really no sense. Again, bitcoin should not compete with visa if we are talking about how much tx can manage *sec...because visa or other system will win surely. Bitcoin should compete as trust,rapidity and not chargeability.

it's more around 3-4 tx per second, because there are multisig, and because one trasaction includ input and output, 7 is just far-strected...
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