Going after Trendon Shavers, Pirateat40, BTCST - page 17.

Phinnaeus Gage

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Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending

Quote from: LoupGaroux on September 10, 2012, 01:20:21 AM

Quote from: Willowbitcoin on September 10, 2012, 01:13:24 AM

Goat you have my full support and i will donate BTC.

Whether people supported pirate or screamed from the rooftops that he was a ponzi, everyone should support this.
If scammers start to face real life justice we will start to see less and less of them in BTC land.

That can only be a good thing for everyone ( and the price of BTC ).

No. Sending one penny to the conspirators who worked with pirate to rip off $5,000,000 of other people's money is exactly the opposite of what anyone should do.

With all due respect to Goat, I too have an issue of accepting BTC donations to hunt down Pirate. Are we not all on the same boat (triple entendre?)?

~Bruno~

BR0KK

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Is this a man hunt (or is it going to be one) ?

You should think of not using anything illegal to get him ..... Even saing that in public might get u in trouble ...

And why cant the PPT operators try to get their money back? As i understand it, Goat and the others are trying to get the BTC; or at least legal justice; for their costumers?

if they wanted to run with it they wouldn't be that active on the forum?!

If i were an customer of PPTs (i actually hat a share of TYGRR.BOT, but i sold it after a week or two, because i wasn't sure what it "really was!) i would rather trust them, then Pirate with his "give me your address and amount owed" proposal.....?

Herodes

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Quote from: conspirosphere.tk on September 10, 2012, 12:40:48 PM

In fact I suspect that the FBI and other 3 letters agencies would like very much to look closely into this affair, so much that I am quite worried and uncertain about what could come out of their involvement (as a paranoid-anarcoid I expect little of good).

The 3-letter agencies are already well aware of Bitcoin. They certainly have the resources necessary to turn every stone in a case like this, but why should they ? Isn't there hundreds of cases that are more important than this case?

Pirate seemed to be a very vocal person, and he obviously liked to show off, which leads me to believe he may not be as a smart as he thinks he is, and thus he may have left traces behind that can be used to track him down.

conspirosphere.tk

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Quote from: Herodes on September 10, 2012, 12:21:39 PM

there are private companies helping individuals in achiving 'justice' outside the established system. I suspect these organizations may be just a effective, if not even more so than most national law agencies.

In fact I suspect that the FBI and other 3 letters agencies would like very much to look closely into this affair, so much that I am quite worried and uncertain about what could come out of their involvement (as a paranoid-anarcoid I expect little of good).

But if in the end you have to refer to them to move things forward and have some chance, then go for it.

JoelKatz

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Quote from: memvola on September 10, 2012, 12:13:00 PM

Regarding PPT's: I think either they take action on behalf of their depositors, or the depositors should take action against them. Without the PPT involvement the victims can't even prove they have made any investment to BTCS&T, there is no direct connection. Goat is on the right track here, but he needs more PPT operators transparently on board. Not likely of course.

The problem with PPT investors going after the PPT operators is that the PPT operators did what they said they would do. Given that they made no provision for deducting collection expenses and the fact that such efforts are unlikely to succeed, it's hard to argue that they're obligated to pursue Pirate for the benefit of their investors at their own expense. As for going after them for running a Ponzi scheme, it's not like they had information much different from what their investors had or that their actions were significantly different from the actions of their investors. The PPT investor's hands are no cleaner than the PPT operator's.

PPT investors might be able to go after Pirate. But even that is looking unlikely. (Though the Madoff precedent, where passthrough investors were ruled unable to collect against Madoff, was specific to SIPC claims for funds involved in SIPA liquidiations, so probably doesn't apply here.)

Herodes

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Quote from: memvola on September 10, 2012, 12:13:00 PM

Regarding PPT's: I think either they take action on behalf of their depositors, or the depositors should take action against them. Without the PPT involvement the victims can't even prove they have made any investment to BTCS&T, there is no direct connection. Goat is on the right track here, but he needs more PPT operators transparently on board. Not likely of course.

Regarding legal claims: If the fraud can be proven (yes even with monopoly money), the motivation should be to make the victims whole again. What the nature of Bitcoin is doesn't really matter at that point. I have very low trust in law but I would very much like to see the outcome.

Yes, me too would like to see Pirate put to justice.

But let's be relistically for a second.

If law enforcement is involved we have the following hurdles:

1. We would need competent investigators that actually knew about bitcoin, and knew their way around everything IT.
2. We would need cooperation across country boundaries, even on various continents.
3. As long as the one filling the case is just an individual, I doubt that law enforcement will care much.
4. It could drag out for years..

The ones I've seen sucessfully track international Internet crime are big law agencies, or big law agencies assisted by powerful private cooperations.

I think a private investigation would yield better results than an official investigation, then when the criminal (Trendon Shavers or whatever his real name is) is found, he could be handed over to the real police, with all evidence readily available, or the organization behind the private investigation could select to to aim for alternative methods..

We don't hear so much about it, but there are private companies helping individuals in achiving 'justice' outside the established system. I suspect these organizations may be just a effective, if not even more so than most national law agencies.

memvola

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Regarding PPT's: I think either they take action on behalf of their depositors, or the depositors should take action against them. Without the PPT involvement the victims can't even prove they have made any investment to BTCS&T, there is no direct connection. Goat is on the right track here, but he needs more PPT operators transparently on board. Not likely of course.

Regarding legal claims: If the fraud can be proven (yes even with monopoly money), the motivation should be to make the victims whole again. What the nature of Bitcoin is doesn't really matter at that point. I have very low trust in law but I would very much like to see the outcome.

sadpandatech

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Quote from: ?? on ??

There are a large number of people with large BTCST accounts who will go after pirate even if I do not.

Why are those people being so quiet? Aside from keeping any actual legal actions quiet, which would be understandable. It would be nice for some fo them, who i know damn well have done nothign yet to alteast act like they are here for more than just their own pockets....

sadpandatech

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Quote from: ?? on ??

I haven't followed the whole thing close enough to understand the difference but it is possible that there were ppt operators who were more innocent and those who were less innocent. At least add a scammer tag to those who clearly mislead people. That would be a start.

Just curious.. what are the TX #s showing the deposits into Pirateat40s account by these PPT operators?

The obvious assumption without such proof is that no deposits were made.

I also haven't seen many personal TX #s into the BullShitTrust, just empty threats by pseudonyms who could be pirate himself.

Yes, the sock puppet to TX# ratio is way to high at this I Told You So happy hour.

+10

PPT operators not wanting to be called scammers, open your books and prove what you did.

It would be very helpful on all accounts to see where this money was moving after it was allegedly deposited with Pirate.

Quote from: JoelKatz on September 10, 2012, 09:44:13 AM

Quote from: sadpandatech on September 10, 2012, 09:13:53 AM

He wuold be held responsible for fraud in such case for not disclosing that he was doing such with the coins.

Ahh, so if you don't disclose what you're doing with the coins, that's fraud? So mybitcointrade is a fraud, right? They don't disclose how they "invest" your coins.

Quote

Not that he disclosed much of anything. But he stated very plainly what he wanted everyone to believe he was doing with the coins. Why anyone believed him is their problem to explane to a judge. ;p But would not much change the actions he was allegedly doing that he provided.

Zeek was always vague about what they did. I don't think what Pirate claimed he did is inconsistent with what he might have believed he was doing in passing through to Zeek.

In other words, it may be that all Pirate is guilty of is the same idiocy as the folks who invested with him. Just as they speculated about the ways he might be able to make a profit and thought their speculations were reasonable, he might have thought the same about Zeek.

aye, that makes about as much sense as what I posted. My point was more that Trendon made direct statements about what he was doing. And none of them said he was 'investing' the coins elsewhere. I am suggesting that he was not at all doing what he even vaguely stated he was.

JoelKatz

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Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.

Quote from: sadpandatech on September 10, 2012, 09:13:53 AM

He wuold be held responsible for fraud in such case for not disclosing that he was doing such with the coins.

Ahh, so if you don't disclose what you're doing with the coins, that's fraud? So mybitcointrade is a fraud, right? They don't disclose how they "invest" your coins.

Quote

Not that he disclosed much of anything. But he stated very plainly what he wanted everyone to believe he was doing with the coins. Why anyone believed him is their problem to explane to a judge. ;p But would not much change the actions he was allegedly doing that he provided.

Zeek was always vague about what they did. I don't think what Pirate claimed he did is inconsistent with what he might have believed he was doing in passing through to Zeek.

In other words, it may be that all Pirate is guilty of is the same idiocy as the folks who invested with him. Just as they speculated about the ways he might be able to make a profit and thought their speculations were reasonable, he might have thought the same about Zeek.

sadpandatech

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Quote from: Shadow383 on September 10, 2012, 09:07:44 AM

Welp, if this was pirate's address the last of the coins left to go get laundered a few hours ago... 158000BTC...
http://blockchain.info/address/1DkyBEKt5S2GDtv7aQw6rQepAvnsRyHoYM

a LOT of wasted hours has convinced me within 95% likeliness that it's not his..

Quote from: thebaron on September 10, 2012, 09:12:23 AM

Quote from: JoelKatz on September 10, 2012, 12:31:34 AM

Quote from: El Cabron on September 10, 2012, 12:14:02 AM

Sadly at this time we have reason to believe fraud occurred.

If Pirate provides evidence that he was actually operating a passthrough to Zeek, will you still hold him responsible for returning your coins?

...

He would be held responsible for fraud in such case for not disclosing that he was doing such with the coins. Not that he disclosed much of anything. But he stated very plainly what he wanted everyone to believe he was doing with the coins. Why anyone believed him is their problem to explane to a judge. ;p But would not much change the actions he was allegedly doing that he provided.

thebaron

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Quote from: JoelKatz on September 10, 2012, 12:31:34 AM

Quote from: El Cabron on September 10, 2012, 12:14:02 AM

Sadly at this time we have reason to believe fraud occurred.

If Pirate provides evidence that he was actually operating a passthrough to Zeek, will you still hold him responsible for returning your coins?

...

Shadow383

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Welp, if this was pirate's address the last of the coins left to go get laundered a few hours ago... 158000BTC...
http://blockchain.info/address/1DkyBEKt5S2GDtv7aQw6rQepAvnsRyHoYM

Bitcoin Oz

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Wat

Quote from: Luno on September 10, 2012, 06:33:59 AM

The justice system doesn't work for free. If to many demand regulation, taxation will find us maybe even on depositor accounts. If one has a legal Bitcoin business, you are in your right to take legal action as you pay taxes. We can't have both.

I won't generalize, but in my country, in the EU, participating in a pyramid scheme is illegal, even on the lowest level where you only loose your own money, therefore you have no legal claim to make and as a payment processor or pass through, you have a greater liability and might face jail time . Some might think that governments do not have the right to decide what's a Ponzy, but the fact is that where I live there has never been a large scale gambling / pyramid scandal with a lot of lesser off people loosing their life savings. Pension funds / bank- scandals we have had our share of though.

This means there is a business opportunity to start private investigation services for bitcoin.

sgravina

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I support this. I lost between 300 - 400 bitcoins in TYGRR.BOND-P. I was gambling and I was wrong. But I would like to recover what I can.

Some are discussing violence. Please don't. My Dad was murdered and it was a very unpleasant experience for everyone. 12 years on and our family is still recovering.

Pirateat40 should do what he can to repay and his lenders should do what they can to get repaid.

The monetary loss is not that big for me. I earn that much money in a month, with some to spare. But I do find the whole law versus bitcoin interaction interesting. I want to see it play out.

I still have faith in Pirateat40. I'm just a faithful kind of guy. Plus, he just sent me some more GPUMAX bitcoins. Part of his buisness is still sticking to its commitments.

Luno

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The justice system doesn't work for free. If to many demand regulation, taxation will find us maybe even on depositor accounts. If one has a legal Bitcoin business, you are in your right to take legal action as you pay taxes. We can't have both.

I won't generalize, but in my country, in the EU, participating in a pyramid scheme is illegal, even on the lowest level where you only loose your own money, therefore you have no legal claim to make and as a payment processor or pass through, you have a greater liability and might face jail time . Some might think that governments do not have the right to decide what's a Ponzy, but the fact is that where I live there has never been a large scale gambling / pyramid scandal with a lot of lesser off people loosing their life savings. Pension funds / bank- scandals we have had our share of though.

labestiol

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Nice to see something finally happening...
I really think you should contact the CLAG (see here), they will probably be of some help.
And clearly you're not the one who should lead this, as a former passthrough operator and someone who defended BTCST as long as it was standing.

All the best to you guys

EskimoBob

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Quality Printing Services by Federal Reserve Bank

Goat, comments like "This is not a job I want." etc. show that you are not the right man for the job. Sad

Nothing personal.
Get someone else to lead this project. Someone who has the time, brains, balls and desire to see it succeed.

One more thing, please close this thread but keep it updated or this will turn into another 50+ pages of verbal diarrhea and trollfest, where people are jerking of to their own writings on the wall of nonsense. (look at any PPT thread).

Cheers and good luck.

PS! And for fuck sake, stop slinging shit at each other. Concentrate your frustration and anger on pirateat40, asshole who screwed as all! Even those, who never invested in hist scams.

BinaryMage

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Ad astra.

Good luck Goat. As Loup so eloquently puts it, us 'righteous souls' who take the so terribly illogical step of actually doing something, or at least making pretenses at doing something, will need all the auspiciousness we can get. I know not whether to trust you or frankly anyone these days, but I am willing to help if good reason exists.

Loup, your poignant wordplay is beyond my ability to contest, and I will not bother to endeavor, but unfailing pessimism, while it may attract legions in the tarpits of our dear friend the Internet, has little sway in the strange world outside that glowing screen. For once, I entreat you, use your clear capability in a more pragmatic fashion with regards to this so joyful community. You might be surprised, and I suspect pleased, at what results.

This effort may, and probably is, all for naught - with that I cannot disagree. Regardless, the only way we can guarantee failure is by failing to try. Now, you tell me, where's the fun in that?

P4man

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Quote from: LoupGaroux on September 10, 2012, 01:20:21 AM

Quote from: Willowbitcoin on September 10, 2012, 01:13:24 AM

Goat you have my full support and i will donate BTC.

Whether people supported pirate or screamed from the rooftops that he was a ponzi, everyone should support this.
If scammers start to face real life justice we will start to see less and less of them in BTC land.

That can only be a good thing for everyone ( and the price of BTC ).

No. Sending one penny to the conspirators who worked with pirate to rip off $5,000,000 of other people's money is exactly the opposite of what anyone should do.

+100
Anyone who still has any faith in this cabal should have their heads checked. Its like the getaway driver investigating the bank robbery.

Topic: Going after Trendon Shavers, Pirateat40, BTCST - page 17. (Read 48542 times)