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Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 1506. (Read 2032274 times)

legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
May 07, 2012, 08:28:52 PM

By my two-second calculations, if about half of the worlds population were using Bitcoin and making 2 transactions per day, a flat average would be about 70,000 transactions per second.  To account for peaks which one typically finds in network service use, better bump that up to about 250,000 transactions/sec.  Then one must consider the potential for DOS attacks.

Contrast this with the .25  (aka 1/4) transactions/sec at the current high.

As currently implemented, Bitcoin scales until it fails then that's all she wrote.  Ultimately I would be more comfortable with a solution which anticipated 'sharding' of some sort, and it seems logical and workable to combine this with a multitude of crypto-currencies each tuned to offer various advantages to their user base.

Of course the 'money changers' would have a hey-day in such an environment, but that fine.  Probably open systems would develop to make things less costly for end-users.  Some guy had a link to such a project a while ago.  I think it was on Docmeister's Bitcoin-2 post.

legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
May 07, 2012, 06:06:11 PM


+> I don't trust Bitcoin as a reserve currency for...

Several reasons:

1)  I do not consider Bitcoin to be reliable under what most people consider 'success'.  I do not trust that the infrastructure needed to support the solution under heavy usage worldwide will be maintainable under coordinated attack.

2)  A beauty (in my opinion) of Bitcoin is that it operates at the pleasure of the user base....but user bases can be fickle.

This is where I think merged mining could be more important than some consider. The hashing capacity of an attack on the Bitcoin network may also provide the power necessary to maintain alternate blockchains, so unless there is sufficient power to overwhelm multiple blockchains at once, it would be possible for assets in one chain to move to another that is not under attack; lateral movement, like Whack-A-Mole.

I think it was you who was potentially interested in my 'bakcoin' idea some months ago.  I hacked out some material around that time, but have been off on other completely unrelated interests since and have not touched it.  I'd have to do (much) more work before presenting it as an alternate crypto-currency or whatever, but here's what I've got for those who might be interested:

  http://bakcoin.org


legendary
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1005
May 07, 2012, 04:32:05 PM
Has this been posted? What do people think? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj2s6vzErqY

Exactly spot-on. Maloney has been saying for a decade what took me a few years to discover mostly on my own. I wish I'd happened across his work in 1999.

But gold is not really an investment in the traditional sense. It's a traditional monetary asset.

FTFY Smiley

The whole post was well put.

There's no reason gold and bitcoins need to be mutually exclusive. They can function together quite well, I think.

This is a point that I've been trying to make forever.

I feel that Gold is a good 'reserve' but there are difficulties in 'exchange'.  Bitcoin, on the other hand, is great on the 'exchange' side of the spectrum, but I (seemingly alone) do not consider it a good 'reserve' currency.  Marry the two (or at least get them being regular fuck-buddies) and one has a very robust solution which would be relatively cumbersome for attackers to meddle with.

Yes!



why do u think it wouldn't fx well as a reserve currency?  nightly settlements btwn nations could occur in an instant unlike gold and no centralized warehouses for bullion would be needed.

Why settle for nightly? Smiley

Gold is the ultimate store of value and has been since the dawn of civilization. That's not going to change any time soon.

this is true but times change.

Yes, and here's a major reason why, although it won't happen immediately: Off-Planet Economics

Several reasons:

1)  I do not consider Bitcoin to be reliable under what most people consider 'success'.  I do not trust that the infrastructure needed to support the solution under heavy usage worldwide will be maintainable under coordinated attack.

2)  A beauty (in my opinion) of Bitcoin is that it operates at the pleasure of the user base....but user bases can be fickle.

This is where I think merged mining could be more important than some consider. The hashing capacity of an attack on the Bitcoin network may also provide the power necessary to maintain alternate blockchains, so unless there is sufficient power to overwhelm multiple blockchains at once, it would be possible for assets in one chain to move to another that is not under attack; lateral movement, like Whack-A-Mole.

you gotta learn to think big.  what if gov'ts decide it's in their best interests to adopt Bitcoin?

Transition from an existing power base is almost never a choice, but a forced occurrence.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
May 07, 2012, 04:26:47 PM
Both such solutions would be, in my opinion, challenging to maintain in the event of a coordinated attack by the various corp/gov entities which will probably always have their hands on the levers of the global infrastructure.


you gotta learn to think big.  what if gov'ts decide it's in their best interests to adopt Bitcoin?

Remember a guy they used to call Saddam Hussein?

Seriously, thinking that any government is likely to support Bitcoin in any serious or long term way strikes me as a total pipe dream and quite unlikely, and basing any sort of nest-egg on the necessity of such an eventuality is not wise.

I have a lot of hope for (and have a lot of) Bitcoin, but as I've stated before, I view it as a long-shot gamble with the potential for an enormous payout.  Unlike PM's which I don't have to think about, capitalizing on Bitcoin (which again, I do not expect as a given or even very likely) will require a good bit of attention and nimbleness.

A crypto-currency or solution based on the principles is, I feel, a potentially revolutionary world changing (for the better) development, but I am currently of the mindset that Bitcoin itself is not really the one which could do so.  At least not in many of the possible scenarios which the future holds and/or not by itself.



check this out:  https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.881546
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
May 07, 2012, 04:00:02 PM
Both such solutions would be, in my opinion, challenging to maintain in the event of a coordinated attack by the various corp/gov entities which will probably always have their hands on the levers of the global infrastructure.


you gotta learn to think big.  what if gov'ts decide it's in their best interests to adopt Bitcoin?

Remember a guy they used to call Saddam Hussein?

Seriously, thinking that any government is likely to support Bitcoin in any serious or long term way strikes me as a total pipe dream and quite unlikely, and basing any sort of nest-egg on the necessity of such an eventuality is not wise.

I have a lot of hope for (and have a lot of) Bitcoin, but as I've stated before, I view it as a long-shot gamble with the potential for an enormous payout.  Unlike PM's which I don't have to think about, capitalizing on Bitcoin (which again, I do not expect as a given or even very likely) will require a good bit of attention and nimbleness.

A crypto-currency or solution based on the principles is, I feel, a potentially revolutionary world changing (for the better) development, but I am currently of the mindset that Bitcoin itself is not really the one which could do so.  At least not in many of the possible scenarios which the future holds and/or not by itself.

legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
May 07, 2012, 03:17:02 PM
Both such solutions would be, in my opinion, challenging to maintain in the event of a coordinated attack by the various corp/gov entities which will probably always have their hands on the levers of the global infrastructure.



you gotta learn to think big.  what if gov'ts decide it's in their best interests to adopt Bitcoin?
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
May 07, 2012, 03:04:56 PM

why do u think it wouldn't fx well as a reserve currency?  nightly settlements btwn nations could occur in an instant unlike gold an no centralized warehouses for bullion would be needed.

Several reasons:

1)  I do not consider Bitcoin to be reliable under what most people consider 'success'.  I do not trust that the infrastructure needed to support the solution under heavy usage worldwide will be maintainable under coordinated attack.

2)  A beauty (in my opinion) of Bitcoin is that it operates at the pleasure of the user base....but user bases can be fickle.



take a look at this: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.874553

Looks like Gavin is saying that 'they' could retro-actively code up something which I've previously argued should be put in place and tested and ready to go pro-actively (namely, user-optional black lists.)

But I'm not even talking about 51%-type attacks in my comments.  What I am referencing is that significant network bandwidth and a fairly complex 'supernode' arrangement will be needed for transmission if/when Bitcoin gets big.  Both such solutions would be, in my opinion, challenging to maintain in the event of a coordinated attack by the various corp/gov entities which will probably always have their hands on the levers of the global infrastructure.

legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
May 07, 2012, 02:13:13 PM
Bitcoin, on the other hand, is great on the 'exchange' side of the spectrum, but I (seemingly alone) do not consider it a good 'reserve' currency.  Marry the two (or at least get them being regular fuck-buddies) and one has a very robust solution which would be relatively cumbersome for attackers to meddle with.

why do u think it wouldn't fx well as a reserve currency?  nightly settlements btwn nations could occur in an instant unlike gold an no centralized warehouses for bullion would be needed.

Several reasons:

1)  I do not consider Bitcoin to be reliable under what most people consider 'success'.  I do not trust that the infrastructure needed to support the solution under heavy usage worldwide will be maintainable under coordinated attack.

2)  A beauty (in my opinion) of Bitcoin is that it operates at the pleasure of the user base....but user bases can be fickle.



take a look at this: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.874553
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
May 07, 2012, 02:07:24 PM
Bitcoin, on the other hand, is great on the 'exchange' side of the spectrum, but I (seemingly alone) do not consider it a good 'reserve' currency.  Marry the two (or at least get them being regular fuck-buddies) and one has a very robust solution which would be relatively cumbersome for attackers to meddle with.

why do u think it wouldn't fx well as a reserve currency?  nightly settlements btwn nations could occur in an instant unlike gold an no centralized warehouses for bullion would be needed.

Several reasons:

1)  I do not consider Bitcoin to be reliable under what most people consider 'success'.  I do not trust that the infrastructure needed to support the solution under heavy usage worldwide will be maintainable under coordinated attack.

2)  A beauty (in my opinion) of Bitcoin is that it operates at the pleasure of the user base....but user bases can be fickle.

legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
May 07, 2012, 02:06:10 PM
Bitcoin, on the other hand, is great on the 'exchange' side of the spectrum, but I (seemingly alone) do not consider it a good 'reserve' currency.  Marry the two (or at least get them being regular fuck-buddies) and one has a very robust solution which would be relatively cumbersome for attackers to meddle with.

why do u think it wouldn't fx well as a reserve currency?  nightly settlements btwn nations could occur in an instant unlike gold and no centralized warehouses for bullion would be needed.

Gold is the ultimate store of value and has been since the dawn of civilization. That's not going to change any time soon.

this is true but times change.

Quote

It wouldn't diminish gold's status at all. Both are decentralized and debt-free, so they complement each other quite well.

But Bitcoin accomplishes everything that gold did when it was the reserve currency of the world.  in fact, i'd argue Bitcoin would function better in today's Internet Age.  using both would be redundant and i think if left to its own, the "market" would choose the more efficient means of performing the reserve currency function and that would be Bitcoin.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 252
May 07, 2012, 02:00:01 PM
Bitcoin, on the other hand, is great on the 'exchange' side of the spectrum, but I (seemingly alone) do not consider it a good 'reserve' currency.  Marry the two (or at least get them being regular fuck-buddies) and one has a very robust solution which would be relatively cumbersome for attackers to meddle with.

why do u think it wouldn't fx well as a reserve currency?  nightly settlements btwn nations could occur in an instant unlike gold and no centralized warehouses for bullion would be needed.

Gold is the ultimate store of value and has been since the dawn of civilization. That's not going to change any time soon.

But I don't see any reason why, under the right conditions, bitcoin could not function as a reserve currency.

It wouldn't diminish gold's status at all. Both are decentralized and debt-free, so they complement each other quite well.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 252
May 07, 2012, 01:52:08 PM
If you'll permit me to add an asterisk to the gold commentary.....

Gold is up year to date, year over year, over the past five years, and over the past ten years, over the past twenty years, over the past fifty years, and over the past one hundred years.

Before the creation of the Fed? Well, that's a different story.

But gold is not really an investment in the traditional sense. It's a traditional asset.

My feeling is that trying to draw a distinction between 'investments' and 'assets' tends to simply muddy the waters in a lot of cases.  Particularly in times of change, and we are in one now as we were in the early 70's, following WW-II, and countless times before that.

Until the world's debt crisis is resolved, gold will appear to rise, because gold extinguishes debt and has no counter-party risk. I'm talking about decades of price discovery as debt continues to self-destruct.

Bitcoin is also an asset which is nobody's liability.  In my mind, BTC is much more like Gold than it is like the USD for this reason.  As someone who is light on liabilities, both BTC and PM's appeal to me very much.

It's been a long time since anyone was overtly burnt by this asset/liability issue so it is not front and center in people's minds.  (Actually, I would argue that people are covertly burnt by the issue all the time, but anyway...)  I have significant paranoia that the asset/liability thing could come to the for with rapidity, and any day.

Depending on who's crunching the numbers, the world's debt is near or above one quadrillion USD against a global net worth of between sixty-five and two hundred trillion USD. How many bitcoins is that?

Understand exponential growth and you understand the problem facing the debt-based monetary system.

Happily for TPTB, very few people do.

From the broadest possible macro perspective, the world's primary economic concern is reconciling actual economic output (taking into account resource depletion, resource distribution, demographics, etc) with a hopelessly unpayable global debt.

I'm not ruling out the possibility that things could limp along in current form for many years.  Even decades.  But I also feel that it is just as possible that it could collapse happen tomorrow.  As long as there is not an excessive opportunity cost in keeping my investments/assets in a form which is more immune from loss if some entity cannot honer their liabilities, I choose to largely do so.

There's no reason gold and bitcoins need to be mutually exclusive. They can function together quite well, I think.

This is a point that I've been trying to make forever.

I feel that Gold is a good 'reserve' but there are difficulties in 'exchange'.  Bitcoin, on the other hand, is great on the 'exchange' side of the spectrum, but I (seemingly alone) do not consider it a good 'reserve' currency.  Marry the two (or at least get them being regular fuck-buddies) and one has a very robust solution which would be relatively cumbersome for attackers to meddle with.



Excellent points!  Wink
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
May 07, 2012, 01:41:51 PM
Bitcoin, on the other hand, is great on the 'exchange' side of the spectrum, but I (seemingly alone) do not consider it a good 'reserve' currency.  Marry the two (or at least get them being regular fuck-buddies) and one has a very robust solution which would be relatively cumbersome for attackers to meddle with.

why do u think it wouldn't fx well as a reserve currency?  nightly settlements btwn nations could occur in an instant unlike gold and no centralized warehouses for bullion would be needed.
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
May 07, 2012, 01:36:37 PM
If you'll permit me to add an asterisk to the gold commentary.....

Gold is up year to date, year over year, over the past five years, and over the past ten years, over the past twenty years, over the past fifty years, and over the past one hundred years.

Before the creation of the Fed? Well, that's a different story.

But gold is not really an investment in the traditional sense. It's a traditional asset.

My feeling is that trying to draw a distinction between 'investments' and 'assets' tends to simply muddy the waters in a lot of cases.  Particularly in times of change, and we are in one now as we were in the early 70's, following WW-II, and countless times before that.

Until the world's debt crisis is resolved, gold will appear to rise, because gold extinguishes debt and has no counter-party risk. I'm talking about decades of price discovery as debt continues to self-destruct.

Bitcoin is also an asset which is nobody's liability.  In my mind, BTC is much more like Gold than it is like the USD for this reason.  As someone who is light on liabilities, both BTC and PM's appeal to me very much.

It's been a long time since anyone was overtly burnt by this asset/liability issue so it is not front and center in people's minds.  (Actually, I would argue that people are covertly burnt by the issue all the time, but anyway...)  I have significant paranoia that the asset/liability thing could come to the for with rapidity, and any day.

Depending on who's crunching the numbers, the world's debt is near or above one quadrillion USD against a global net worth of between sixty-five and two hundred trillion USD. How many bitcoins is that?

Understand exponential growth and you understand the problem facing the debt-based monetary system.

Happily for TPTB, very few people do.

From the broadest possible macro perspective, the world's primary economic concern is reconciling actual economic output (taking into account resource depletion, resource distribution, demographics, etc) with a hopelessly unpayable global debt.

I'm not ruling out the possibility that things could limp along in current form for many years.  Even decades.  But I also feel that it is just as possible that it could collapse happen tomorrow.  As long as there is not an excessive opportunity cost in keeping my investments/assets in a form which is more immune from loss if some entity cannot honer their liabilities, I choose to largely do so.

There's no reason gold and bitcoins need to be mutually exclusive. They can function together quite well, I think.

This is a point that I've been trying to make forever.

I feel that Gold is a good 'reserve' but there are difficulties in 'exchange'.  Bitcoin, on the other hand, is great on the 'exchange' side of the spectrum, but I (seemingly alone) do not consider it a good 'reserve' currency.  Marry the two (or at least get them being regular fuck-buddies) and one has a very robust solution which would be relatively cumbersome for attackers to meddle with.

sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 252
May 07, 2012, 12:10:47 PM
How many bitcoins is that?

21 Million, but the value per coin is going to need to go up quite a bit Wink.

Correct!  Grin
legendary
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1004
May 07, 2012, 12:07:32 PM
Has this been posted? What do people think? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj2s6vzErqY
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
May 07, 2012, 11:59:22 AM
 Roll Eyes



legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
May 07, 2012, 11:43:43 AM
How many bitcoins is that?

21 Million, but the value per coin is going to need to go up quite a bit Wink.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 252
May 07, 2012, 11:21:53 AM
If you'll permit me to add an asterisk to the gold commentary.....

Gold is up year to date, year over year, over the past five years, and over the past ten years, over the past twenty years, over the past fifty years, and over the past one hundred years.

Before the creation of the Fed? Well, that's a different story.

But gold is not really an investment in the traditional sense. It's a traditional asset.

Until the world's debt crisis is resolved, gold will appear to rise, because gold extinguishes debt and has no counter-party risk. I'm talking about decades of price discovery as debt continues to self-destruct.

Depending on who's crunching the numbers, the world's debt is near or above one quadrillion USD against a global net worth of between sixty-five and two hundred trillion USD. How many bitcoins is that?

Understand exponential growth and you understand the problem facing the debt-based monetary system.

From the broadest possible macro perspective, the world's primary economic concern is reconciling actual economic output (taking into account resource depletion, resource distribution, demographics, etc) with a hopelessly unpayable global debt.


There's no reason gold and bitcoins need to be mutually exclusive. They can function together quite well, I think.
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